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Somebody, IIRC, made some good posts about UU in the old thread? But I can't seem to find them so  .
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Oct 23, 2016 19:26
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The Phlegmatist posted:You could probably say the same about modern-day liberal Quakers. Forgetting all about their Christian roots led some younger Quakers to lead a sort of counter-revolution within the denomination trying to get them to start being doctrinal Christians again. no like unitarian universalists don't call themselves christian. like sometimes they identify with aspects of christian theology and stuff, but the same can be said about buddhism, judaism, hinduism, etc. i've known a few UUs who focused on meditation and stuff, and others who converted to judaism and i think were rabbis? i was never particularly clear on that, but then i wasn't a huge fan of that guy anyway (he was a professor of one of the most hippie dippie class i ever took, which was on transgender theology and therefore a huge disappointment at the time)
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Oct 23, 2016 19:31
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actually now that i think about it both of the terrible, hippie dippie light on actual theology theology classes i took were taught by trans dudes funny how that works out huh
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Oct 23, 2016 19:32
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The Phlegmatist posted:You could probably say the same about modern-day liberal Quakers. Forgetting all about their Christian roots led some younger Quakers to lead a sort of counter-revolution within the denomination trying to get them to start being doctrinal Christians again. I feel like a lot of 19th-Century churches would have also combined progressivism and charismatic Christianity.
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Oct 23, 2016 19:38
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Mo Tzu posted:no like unitarian universalists don't call themselves christian. like sometimes they identify with aspects of christian theology and stuff, but the same can be said about buddhism, judaism, hinduism, etc. i've known a few UUs who focused on meditation and stuff, and others who converted to judaism and i think were rabbis? i was never particularly clear on that, but then i wasn't a huge fan of that guy anyway (he was a professor of one of the most hippie dippie class i ever took, which was on transgender theology and therefore a huge disappointment at the time) As far as I'm aware there's no creed and various UUs consider themselves personally Christian, Jewish, Muslim, atheist, etc.
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Oct 23, 2016 19:40
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So its more like a community center then?
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Oct 23, 2016 19:47
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community centers don't have seminaries
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Oct 23, 2016 19:51
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Ceciltron posted:So its more like a community center then? There are Sunday services, as well as community outreach. I had a friend who was doing Unitarian training for running teen education, and it was intensive and very well-thought-out, especially the sexual unit. e: System Metternich posted:It'll take me about 20-25 minutes or so when alone, and maybe half an hour when in a group. I'd say that in my area the repetitive aspect is more important/prominent than the meditation though, so your mileage may vary. Around here the rosary will often be used simply to fill the time in a pious manner, like before Mass (where the rosary will simply end whenever the service begins) or during pilgrimages. In rural Catholic areas it was common well into the 20th century to describe units of time by how many prayers of a specific sort you could say in it, like "boil it for the length of a rosary" or "it'll take you about three Lord's Prayers". A handwritten late 19th-century cookbook my grandma has somewhere still uses this as units of time That is SO COOL. It was very common, when the entire Catholic service was in Latin, for attenders to spend most of their time praying the Rosary to unite their prayers with what was going on up front. e: Let's be as polite to the UUs as we are to all the other beliefs listed in this thread. It may not be our chalice of tea, but "okay, that's weird, but I'll listen and learn" is the unspoken ethos of this thread. We all look pretty weird to outsiders. The best UU jokes are the ones they tell on themselves. Two I heard from a friend: How do you tell if a Unitarian is mad at you? By the burning question mark on your lawn. How do you recognize a Unitarian missionary? They knock on people's doors for no apparent reason. Arsenic Lupin fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Oct 23, 2016 |
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Oct 23, 2016 19:53
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I can definitely say that after attending Mass for a couple months, the Catholic stereotype about them being really bad at passing the peace is actually true. Most of them seem like they're gonna burst into flames from touching the filthy Protestant.Mo Tzu posted:no like unitarian universalists don't call themselves christian Surprisingly you get a lot of Quakers (the liberal branch at least) doing the same; in fact some of them are pretty vitriolic towards Christians.
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Oct 23, 2016 20:47
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The Phlegmatist posted:Surprisingly you get a lot of Quakers (the liberal branch at least) doing the same; in fact some of them are pretty vitriolic towards Christians.
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Oct 23, 2016 20:52
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Paladinus posted:I'd like to clarify that a bit. There is a brand of Russian Orthodox who believe that Russian theology was tainted by Catholicism in the 18-19th century, and that the real Orthodoxy is that only expressed essentially by people who spoke Old Slavonic at least four centuries ago plus people like Ignaty Bryanchaninov and John of Kronstadt (notoriously anti-Catholic figures). And obviously I may be biased here with my own papism, but I think they are wrong about it, and everyone can only profit from reading Berdyaev, Lossky, Solovyov, and many other more contemporary Russian theologians. If you are bringing up Peter Mogila to a Greek Orthodox or OCA, they might be a bit skeptical of him because they think he was influenced too much by Roman Catholic Theology. You should not lump or add people regarding Real Orthodoxy is only expressed essentially by people with who spoke Old Slavonic at least four centuries plus Ignatius Brianchaninov and John of Kronstadt because those are two totally different things. Ignatius Brianchaninov, with St. Theophan the Recluse and St. Philaret Drozdov of Moscow are considered in Russia to be steeped in Patristic theology and John of Kronstadt wrote Talks of the Days of Creation How can you, a non-Orthodox, would say that one of the great Orthodox theologians is linked regarding not discussing original sin, especially when he teaches that for true philosophy, one must know both Christianity and true science so one can distinguish materialistic fantasies from scientific truths?
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Oct 23, 2016 21:20
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Arsenic Lupin posted:It gets really weird (and sometimes ugly) when the far-liberal Quakers bump up against the Biblical-literalist Quakers. My parents' home Meeting just split off from Indiana's overarching Meeting (whose name I am too lazy to look up) because they chose to become a "welcoming church", which means affirming an anodyne statement that all, including LGBTQ, are welcome. Schisms are hard because of the heartbreak -- on all sides -- of realizing people you've known for years are just Wrong. When new ideas enter a denomination's thought-stream, the chuch begins to correct itself. Let me use this example: Imagine four congregations on the edge of a cliff. Say a direct copy of the congregation nearest the cliff is sent to the back of the line and takes the place of the first congregation. The formerly first one becomes the second, the second becomes the third, and the fourth schisms off the cliff. Protestantism works the same way.
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Oct 23, 2016 22:01
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AmyL posted:If you are bringing up Peter Mogila to a Greek Orthodox or OCA, they might be a bit skeptical of him because they think he was influenced too much by Roman Catholic Theology. Well, see, that's the thing I don't get. His work was well-regarded enough at the time and still is in Russia, so what's changed in other places? quote:You should not lump or add people regarding Real Orthodoxy is only expressed essentially by people with who spoke Old Slavonic at least four centuries plus Ignatius Brianchaninov and John of Kronstadt because those are two totally different things. Probably something went wrong with copy and paste here, because I don't understand what you're saying here. But just in case, I checked, and both Ignatius Brianchaninov and John of Kronstadt believed in original sin. Ignatius discusses it at length in his Ascetic Experiences, and John talks about it in Conversations about the Evangelical Beatitudes. I can translate exact quotes, if you're interested.
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Oct 23, 2016 22:11
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Paladinus posted:Well, see, that's the thing I don't get. His work was well-regarded enough at the time and still is in Russia, so what's changed in other places? I was referring to your "There is a brand of Russian Orthodox who believe that Russian theology was tainted by Catholicism in the 18-19th century, and that the real Orthodoxy is that only expressed essentially by people who spoke Old Slavonic at least four centuries ago plus people like Ignaty Bryanchaninov and John of Kronstadt (notoriously anti-Catholic figures). For the Greek and OCA, I can't explain it other than they think he was influenced too much by Latin thought. I know the Greeks do not venerate him as a saint and I think the OCA don't have him listed with the other Metropolitans of Kiev on October 5.
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Oct 23, 2016 22:26
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Pellisworth posted:Protestantism works the same way. Korea's owning us in the US on that front. i'm hapdongbosu iii (not iv, they're the heretics) not to be confused with bosuhapdong iii. they are also heretics.
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Oct 23, 2016 22:28
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Tias posted:As an anarcho-syndicalist, I will ask you to refrain from making the comparison, it would make both anarchists and calvinists sad No.
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Oct 23, 2016 22:39
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both deserve what the get imo
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Oct 23, 2016 22:43
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AmyL posted:If you are bringing up Peter Mogila to a Greek Orthodox or OCA, they might be a bit skeptical of him because they think he was influenced too much by Roman Catholic Theology. i think you're missing a bunch of punctuation marks itp
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Oct 23, 2016 23:20
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Pellisworth posted:When new ideas enter a denomination's thought-stream, the chuch begins to correct itself. Let me use this example: Imagine four congregations on the edge of a cliff. Say a direct copy of the congregation nearest the cliff is sent to the back of the line and takes the place of the first congregation. The formerly first one becomes the second, the second becomes the third, and the fourth schisms off the cliff. 
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Oct 23, 2016 23:32
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I do agree that schisms are pretty awful for all sides involved. My last church (Presby, PC(USA)) kept voting to leave the denomination over the General Assembly allowing for same-sex marriage for like four years and could never get a consensus. It was honestly a really toxic environment where your worth to the church was based on your political views. Congregants kept slowly leaving to go to the other Presbyterian church two miles away (that's Protestantism!) and now the church consists almost entirely of bitter people. On a more positive note, I noticed a bunch of Quaker hymns in the hymnal at Mass today (I dunno why I've never scanned through it before) and my RCIA classes make extensive use of lectio divina where we just reflect on the Gospel reading for the day in silence, punctuated by candidates standing up and sharing their views when Christ moves them to. That should sound a little bit familiar. Wrap it up, Catholicailures, the Quakers, of all people, already won.
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Oct 23, 2016 23:34
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so remember the sermon assignment my students did that i talked about earlier? i'm marking them and i told them that they're free to speak from a sectarian perspective if that's the kind of sermon they'd like to write. this marking has been a fascinating foray through a whole world of inadvertent heresies. who knew pelagianism was so alive and well in american undergraduates?
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Oct 24, 2016 07:47
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Can't say I'm surprised. You could look at it as an expression of human pride, but you could also look at it as faith in God's workmanship; he couldn't possibly have made human beings that defective. 
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Oct 24, 2016 07:56
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Can't say I'm surprised. You could look at it as an expression of human pride, but you could also look at it as faith in God's workmanship; he couldn't possibly have made human beings that defective. the explicit pelagianist one was also one that was clearly attempting to "shock" his commie liberal instructor (i.e. me) with uncompromising Conservative Christian Truths, so i'm doubly amused here.
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Oct 24, 2016 08:05
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Bel_Canto posted:so remember the sermon assignment my students did that i talked about earlier? i'm marking them and i told them that they're free to speak from a sectarian perspective if that's the kind of sermon they'd like to write. this marking has been a fascinating foray through a whole world of inadvertent heresies. who knew pelagianism was so alive and well in american undergraduates? In my theological anthropology seminar there were a couple folks who, after completing our section on Augustine vs Pelagius straight up said that history got it wrong, Pelagius' arguments were better. It was a cool seminar, good classmates.
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Oct 24, 2016 08:22
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I'm back from a seminar, and was told that( direct quote) "my God is not big enough". It translates badly, but essentially the teacher thought I had found faith but not trust in the divine, because I was still caught up too much with worry and regret over my life. I tend to agree, and have shifted my prayers to ask for the ability to trust in God. If anyone itt could tell me about their personal level of trust in God, and how they came to have it, I would be very grateful. I find that I can believe in God just fine, but I still find myself wanting to control life and unable to trust that whatever has to happen, will happen. I suppose I could see Calvinists being kind of touched that someone would associate with workerism, but the whole revolution thing is decidedly undoctrinal 
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Oct 24, 2016 08:32
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Tias posted:I'm back from a seminar, and was told that( direct quote) "my God is not big enough". It translates badly, but essentially the teacher thought I had found faith but not trust in the divine, because I was still caught up too much with worry and regret over my life. I tend to agree, and have shifted my prayers to ask for the ability to trust in God. I like your question a lot! It aims to get to the heart of a believer. I'd characterize my level of trust in God by saying that I have to die daily to myself. Day after day I am beset by doubts and find myself surrendering to those doubts. They can sound like a dissatisfaction with the real sadness, anger, and misery I feel in myself or have to observe helplessly. I have to let these feelings live their life and then die, and I have to die to them so that something more important, a calling from God to love, can live in me. And I know this struggle can happen tomorrow or the next day, and it can happen while I'm talking to a family member or to a stranger, and it will be a struggle because this is a ministry. I trust, though, that for all the mistakes that I have made today, and all the mistakes that were made by everybody, this day could not have gone any differently. It happened exactly as it should, as it must have by the laws that govern the universe. And I try my best not to doubt that this is orchestrated by a God that is love. But lastly, I want to say that wanting to control life (presumably your own) is not incompatible or even contrary to trusting God. Epictetus was right, "Some things are in your control and others are not." The things over which you have control happen in the sight of God. Though I couldn't tell you any better than a fortune cookie what you are called to control, I have great faith that you can discern this through your own rapport with God.
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Oct 24, 2016 10:10
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Bel_Canto posted:so remember the sermon assignment my students did that i talked about earlier? i'm marking them and i told them that they're free to speak from a sectarian perspective if that's the kind of sermon they'd like to write. this marking has been a fascinating foray through a whole world of inadvertent heresies. who knew pelagianism was so alive and well in american undergraduates? *looks up Pelagianism* Oh thats a heresy. Let me go delete my earlier posts before I get turned into kindling. Man Whore fucked around with this message at 10:40 on Oct 24, 2016 |
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Oct 24, 2016 10:33
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It's of the doper heresies.
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Oct 24, 2016 11:03
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you guys call us (except the russians i guess, hey Paladinus) semi-pelagians we call you poopyheads though, especially when you're not listening Tias posted:I'm back from a seminar, and was told that( direct quote) "my God is not big enough". It translates badly, but essentially the teacher thought I had found faith but not trust in the divine, because I was still caught up too much with worry and regret over my life. I tend to agree, and have shifted my prayers to ask for the ability to trust in God.
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Oct 24, 2016 12:58
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Caufman posted:I like your question a lot! It aims to get to the heart of a believer. Thanks, this is really good stuff  I guess I meant that I try to control the universe: other people, institutions, uncontrollable entities - because I cannot bear the universe as it is.HEY GAL posted:Things are constantly happening, causing other things, and we live within them--which means that we live within God. Whether bad things or good things are happening to you personally right now, we still all live within God, it's impossible for anything to be abandoned. That's well and good on an intellectual level, but it does not make me trust in God to protect me.
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Oct 24, 2016 14:01
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Well, thinking that Christianity is quid-pro-quo is sorta prosperity gospel, no? Bad stuff can and will happen in, but that's peanuts from God's perspective. Or something. I'm not well-versed in this thing. My baptismal(?) saint, Francis de Sales, has a prayer I try to say every morning.
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Oct 24, 2016 14:10
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JcDent posted:Well, thinking that Christianity is quid-pro-quo is sorta prosperity gospel, no? Bad stuff can and will happen in, but that's peanuts from God's perspective. That's really good, thanks! Well, I'm in 12 step, and we specifically have to be able to give our lives over completely to our higher power, and so that is the kind of relationship with the divine I'm going for. It's not demanding anything from God as much as giving our fear and anger to him, so we can live our lives free of addiction.
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Oct 24, 2016 14:52
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I think God has guided my life quite well, throwing opportunity after opportunity at me, and if I wasn't as lazy, I could have probably achieved even more. If a man can want more than a loving girlfriend, a flat they don't have to pay rent for, a talkative cat, hobbyshop that feeds my need for attention, a free gaming PC that I got because of/for game reviewing and more! I am really lucky/blessed. Except for my OCD or something, which makes most of my day a tiring fight for my faith (it gets other subjects to get obsessed with, but only rarely). Then again, it kinda lead me to this thread, a deeper understanding of Christianity and to deliver de Sales' prayer to you, so if I'm still going to be a believer in a year's time, it will have been worth it! Per aspera ad Dominus!
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Oct 24, 2016 15:04
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one of my friends just had the greatest halloween costume idea: red dress, orange beehive, glitter-blue drag makeup, and a gun. she's going to be Chalcedonian Christology: fully human, fully Divine
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Oct 24, 2016 18:11
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Re: Life and doubt. I'm an atheist for at least a couple hours a day. The struggle is real. All of the advice to pray is spot on, I think. And, it's always been the experience of God's people to wrestle with this. Brueggemann's Praying the Psalms is a good resource for understanding the way doubt and complaint can shape life through incorporating the psalms in prayer.
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Oct 24, 2016 18:19
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Bel_Canto posted:one of my friends just had the greatest halloween costume idea: red dress, orange beehive, glitter-blue drag makeup, and a gun. she's going to be Chalcedonian Christology: fully human, fully Divine
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Oct 24, 2016 18:22
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Bel_Canto posted:one of my friends just had the greatest halloween costume idea: red dress, orange beehive, glitter-blue drag makeup, and a gun. she's going to be Chalcedonian Christology: fully human, fully Divine Nice. Anyway I think spirituality is a learned skill much like anything else. Turning your life over to God gets easier the more that you do it. Clearly God does not protect you from suffering; I mean crack open a random hagiography and it's probably gonna be like "was holy, lived in a world of poo poo, was brutally murdered." What matters though is not avoidance of suffering but how religion allows you to suffer well. To put it into the context of AA, it's about releasing yourself from the need to manipulate your own emotional state via drugs and alcohol and develop spirituality as a coping method via turning your life over to your higher power. That's sorta what I think Bill W. was going for anyway. I can't really recommend any spiritual exercises for you since you're one of those heretic Thor worshipers and I'm honestly not sure what you guys even do except make black metal, but I can say that reading Christian mystics, particularly St. Therese of Lisieux, has helped me grow into humble obedience before God.
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Oct 24, 2016 18:41
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The Phlegmatist posted:Clearly God does not protect you from suffering; I mean crack open a random hagiography and it's probably gonna be like "was holy, lived in a world of poo poo, was brutally murdered." What matters though is not avoidance of suffering but how religion allows you to suffer well. I'm glad you said this because I was trying to think of how I could say it without sounding like an rear end in a top hat.
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Oct 24, 2016 18:44
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I'm glad you said this because I was trying to think of how I could say it without sounding like an rear end in a top hat. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. - Matt 5:45
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Oct 24, 2016 18:49
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Deteriorata posted:He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. - Matt 5:45 Although of course I take the position that a fully Good God would protect you from suffering, that the fact that He does not implicitly gives us the right and duty to master the material world for ourselves, and that when suffering cannot be avoided the appropriate reaction is scorn for the cause of your suffering; "I suffer but will not be bowed!" Still, the core of all of this is that you will suffer, and any stable source of endurance against suffering is probably for the best.
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Oct 24, 2016 18:51
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