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Man, Castile sure seems to be inheriting the Netherlands a lot, I wonder what changed. I do like it though.
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Oct 24, 2016 19:42
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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They might have changed the odds to make it more common, but they always had a special exception in the Burgundy inheritance event to let Spain inherit.
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Oct 24, 2016 19:52
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Elman posted:Also keep in mind if you boost production past 10 in a gold mine province you'll risk depleting the mine and losing half of it. It's a little more complex than that, and it's really worth it to read the full spergout in its glory: http://www.eu4wiki.com/Trade_goods#Gold_mine_depletion
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Oct 24, 2016 19:51
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NihilCredo posted:It's a little more complex than that, and it's really worth it to read the full spergout in its glory: http://www.eu4wiki.com/Trade_goods#Gold_mine_depletion That's a thing of beauty.
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Oct 24, 2016 19:56
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the half life of an EU4 gold province lol it's worth noting, since I've seen a few people who didn't realise- depletion doesn't ruin the gold province, all it does is halve the production points. No province modifier or anything. It's simple to just develop it right back up again if you want to. Even since the change where gold provinces can be depleted no matter the level, I still just develop them up to 10 like I used to.
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Oct 24, 2016 20:00
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Yeah and keep in mind that a depleted 14 development gold mine is still producing as much cash as a 7 development gold mine which is more money than anything else is going to give you in the early game. The real downside to dumping into development early on is that it gives the enemies around you a chance to take advantage of your decision to turn inward and burn all those points that could have been spent staying ahead in military and annexing your neighbors. Usually the early part of the game is the best time to expand if only to pick off the weaker nations to deny their strength to your rivals.
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Oct 24, 2016 20:06
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NihilCredo posted:It's a little more complex than that, and it's really worth it to read the full spergout in its glory: http://www.eu4wiki.com/Trade_goods#Gold_mine_depletion Haha yeah, that guy used math, what an idiot turbosperg. Let's give him a wedgie.
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Oct 24, 2016 20:09
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NihilCredo posted:It's a little more complex than that, and it's really worth it to read the full spergout in its glory: http://www.eu4wiki.com/Trade_goods#Gold_mine_depletion This is actually cool and good, screw you guys  It's nice to see some analysis to confirm that just pumping up to 10 production is generally a safe bet.
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Oct 24, 2016 20:29
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RabidWeasel posted:This is actually cool and good, screw you guys It looks like 10 at first, then add 5 more over every hundred years.
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Oct 24, 2016 20:32
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Fister Roboto posted:Haha yeah, that guy used math, what an idiot turbosperg. Let's give him a wedgie. I will join you in this noble act.
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Oct 24, 2016 20:41
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Okay here’s my current Ethiopia ironman run: Early game is straightforward, annex Kaffa for their gold mine and annex or vassalize the other minors. The only real threat is the Mamluks and once you consolidate your starting position and buy into Renaissance (dump points in one province up to ~40 development) you’ll be on about even footing with them. Mamluks attacked me in 1470 and it was a bloody, drawn-out war but I won and took provinces to snake to the Mediterranean coast, built up a fleet quickly and took Crete, Rhodes, and Cyprus from Venice and friends. The Ottomans took Quantity ideas first and are absolute fuckheads, I’ve fought three defensive wars against them (in the screenshot it’s a coalition war, all my Muslim neighbors hate me) and I basically just hold my ground in the mountains in Syria. They sit on my mountain forts, I relieve the siege and win, but they have way too large of an army and manpower recovery for me to advance much. Still I’ve scraped a few provinces off them and am about to peace out of the current war and take a line of provinces to Yerevan, the last Coptic holy site. Exploration ideas is a pretty obvious first pick. Influence or Trade would be alright but long-term Exploration is imo your best bet. I was a little torn on taking Economic vs. Religious ideas, ended up going with Economic. You get tons of missionaries from your NIs and conquering Alexandria, Jerusalem, and Mecca plus good missionary strength, so the conversion bonuses aren’t all that useful. The Holy War CB is amazing and would have reduced my AE by a lot (Holy War is 75% AE and regular Conquest is 100% so I’d be effectively -25% AE against other religions which is everyone). Econ was a good pick for the inflation reduction, loans, and development discount though. Defensive I think is the obvious pick for first military idea though Quantity would be solid as well. Don’t make the mistake I did and colonize western Africa, just get the Cape and plan to funnel to Zanzibar. You can’t form trade companies on your own continent and you’d have a hard time controlling Ivory Coast anyway because of all the strong downstream trade nodes, so it’s not really worth it. Colonize Cape to block off the Europeans and focus on SE Asia for colonization. Ethiopia benefits hugely from the fort changes, abuse the hell out of your high Fort Defense and hostile terrain. Don’t forget to disinherit lovely heirs, you get +50% heir chance, +1 prestige (more from conquering holy sites and DotF), and +1 Legitimacy from NIs so it’s relatively “cheap” to reroll heirs. Edit: oh, and I got my dynasty on Poland's throne by election, once the war ends they'll get the event to end Elective Monarchy in a few years and there's a good chance I might PU them as a result. Asia is extremely behind in tech, I agree the AI is pretty bad at keeping up on their own. Check out that ming at 252% tech cost 
Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Oct 24, 2016 |
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Oct 24, 2016 20:55
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Does anyone actually invest in production for reasons other than getting institutions?
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Oct 24, 2016 21:08
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Yes, production income is great in the middle and late game, and diplo points are the least valuable in general, meaning you've more often got them to spend. In my Prussia game my provinces are all pretty great, most of them are >15, with the bulk of that Production.
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Oct 24, 2016 21:26
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Pellisworth posted:Okay here’s my current Ethiopia ironman run: I'm surprised that Bahmanis aren't a GP at that size, did they recently grow a lot or have they been having problems? They look well and truly hegemonic in India, if they formed Hindustan they could become scary. I guess they're maybe just being edged out by those other powers and are 9th or 10th; there's quite a good amount consolidation in Europe.
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Oct 24, 2016 21:45
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RabidWeasel posted:I'm surprised that Bahmanis aren't a GP at that size, did they recently grow a lot or have they been having problems? They look well and truly hegemonic in India, if they formed Hindustan they could become scary. They have 710 development but are quite behind on institutions and tech, haven't picked up Colonialism or Printing Press so they're at +100% tech cost and rising. All of Asia is at 100-150% tech penalty, some of them have Renaissance but that's it.
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Oct 24, 2016 21:50
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Stairmaster posted:Does anyone actually invest in production for reasons other than getting institutions? It also boosts your production income (.2 goods per prod increase), which also boosts trade value: can be very useful for some of the higher priced items: (Cloth, Silk, Tropical Wood, Wine, Iron)
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Oct 24, 2016 21:56
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I'm a huge Asia fan and I'm honestly fine with it that way. I hope they don't reduce the institution penalties.
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Oct 24, 2016 21:56
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Koramei posted:I'm a huge Asia fan and I'm honestly fine with it that way. I hope they don't reduce the institution penalties. I'm fine with it in theory, but for pure gameplay reasons they kind of need to balance it out so the AI actually tries to abuse development like the player will. I know that the AI can do this under some circumstances, but at the moment the investment to reward is quite strongly in favour of heavy investment to get instituitons ASAP and the AI needs to pursue it equally aggressively if it's in a strong position; that Bahamis is a perfect example, no player would let themselves sit in such a strong position with 100% tech penalty.
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Oct 24, 2016 22:06
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RabidWeasel posted:I'm fine with it in theory, but for pure gameplay reasons they kind of need to balance it out so the AI actually tries to abuse development like the player will. I know that the AI can do this under some circumstances, but at the moment the investment to reward is quite strongly in favour of heavy investment to get instituitons ASAP and the AI needs to pursue it equally aggressively if it's in a strong position; that Bahamis is a perfect example, no player would let themselves sit in such a strong position with 100% tech penalty. But then you also run into the issue that we used to face in Europe (especially HRE), where all these countries pump their provinces to be high in dev, have decent armies and you can't take anything without being stopped for a long time. I know in my MP game we have a fractured China in the 1650s and they still have 50k+ armies everywhere and taking even 2 provinces gives you 40OE. I get the importance of getting gameplay balance so there's a challenge, but you also have to balance the fun aspect (albeit the European Imperialism part) otherwise things stay static for a long time. I really wish tall gameplay was more fun and also that focus was less on military (everyone always spams mil ideas) The example of the Prussian government was decent (althoug giving them more military benefits was just -_-) in my ideal EU IV I would hope to get more forms of government or just descale military ideas/units a bit more so that stacking all these combat bonuses dont always win you a war Godlovesus fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Oct 24, 2016 |
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Oct 24, 2016 22:12
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The weird thing about the Prussian monarchy stuff is that it wants you to be so small. I'm in the early days of Prussia'ing this game, but it seems like it really wants to hold you to less than 15 provinces. The core Brandenburg-Prussia area is already 10, and that's assuming you just inherited Ducal Prussia or some equally implausible thing. Are you just supposed to be dumping loads of military points into bumping militarism?
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Oct 24, 2016 22:18
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Still having vanishing saves. I go to the menu, save the game, then check Load to see if it's there...and nothing. Then I'll press save again, keep the same name, and then the game will ask me if I want to overwrite the save (implying it's still there?) but it's not on the load screen. Any ideas?
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Oct 24, 2016 22:20
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PittTheElder posted:The weird thing about the Prussian monarchy stuff is that it wants you to be so small. I'm in the early days of Prussia'ing this game, but it seems like it really wants to hold you to less than 15 provinces. The core Brandenburg-Prussia area is already 10, and that's assuming you just inherited Ducal Prussia or some equally implausible thing. Are you just supposed to be dumping loads of military points into bumping militarism? Yeah by the time I formed Prussia I was already too big to get any benefit from the special government. The only time I used it was dumping 300 mil points into it to get the goosestep achievement. It's weird because historical Prussia actually got pretty fuckin big.
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Oct 24, 2016 22:24
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RabidWeasel posted:I'm fine with it in theory, but for pure gameplay reasons they kind of need to balance it out so the AI actually tries to abuse development like the player will. I know that the AI can do this under some circumstances, but at the moment the investment to reward is quite strongly in favour of heavy investment to get instituitons ASAP and the AI needs to pursue it equally aggressively if it's in a strong position; that Bahamis is a perfect example, no player would let themselves sit in such a strong position with 100% tech penalty. What gameplay reasons though? Left on its own, the non-European teams are supposed to fall behind. Since they got rid of the power penalties and so on a couple of years ago there'd been a pretty constant problem of AI Europeans not actually being able to make inroads into Asia like they did historically. The rest of the world being whacked with gigantic penalties right in 1444 was bullshit, but the same thing happening slowly and organically, with there being no imbalance at the start but a significant one (250% is a bit much but I expect that was an anomaly) towards the end of the game, makes a lot of sense for the historical sandbox the game is trying to be. I like that an all-knowing human player can change the course of history- spawning in institutions, and even forcing institutions to spawn outside of Europe (if there's one change to it I'd actually like to see, it'd be printing press and maybe even renaissance having some triggers, even if they're really really hard to achieve, for them to spawn outside too), but that left to its own devices, the game world plays out more like it did in history. e: forcing in institutions doesn't even really let you get an edge over your neighbors, since they end up getting them too. It seems pretty balanced the way it is now. Having played with it more, institutions are my favourite change to the game in its entire lifespan.
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Oct 24, 2016 22:30
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PittTheElder posted:The weird thing about the Prussian monarchy stuff is that it wants you to be so small. I'm in the early days of Prussia'ing this game, but it seems like it really wants to hold you to less than 15 provinces. The core Brandenburg-Prussia area is already 10, and that's assuming you just inherited Ducal Prussia or some equally implausible thing. Are you just supposed to be dumping loads of military points into bumping militarism? I think that's decent, considering the military bonuses it gives are quite dumb when coupled with Prussian ideas. Even then you're guaranteed perma 3 mil ruler, so It could be possible to keep it at 50 and/or buff it when needed I guess? I'd like more of a focus on trade/economy. Development was a good step, but generally most people blob too easily and it's almost never worth it to stay small still. Like I wish things like merchant republics could be viable with even larger merc pools or being able to choose 'France tier mercs, Prussian tier mercs etc so they could actually stand up to bigger military blobs. Giving mercs your discipline/morale and tactics with a hard cap has always been kinda ehhhh to me, especially when you consider countries like Burgundy who can literally run the board with mercs only and never die as long as they have a nice income flow. Or when you look at France/Prussia steamrolling Venice with mercs because their mercs have 125% dis or morale vs 115 at (at best) venetian mercs
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Oct 24, 2016 23:43
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PittTheElder posted:The weird thing about the Prussian monarchy stuff is that it wants you to be so small. I'm in the early days of Prussia'ing this game, but it seems like it really wants to hold you to less than 15 provinces. The core Brandenburg-Prussia area is already 10, and that's assuming you just inherited Ducal Prussia or some equally implausible thing. Are you just supposed to be dumping loads of military points into bumping militarism? Yeah same thing happened in my latest Brandenburg -> Prussia game, I abandoned it in 1620, after having won the thirty-years war and dismantled the HRE, I had absorbed most of Northern Germany, Polen, the Baltic and Novgorod. The only time I used the special government was in the thirty-years war. I honestly don't like it.
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Oct 24, 2016 23:46
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Koramei posted:What gameplay reasons though? Left on its own, the non-European teams are supposed to fall behind. Since they got rid of the power penalties and so on a couple of years ago there'd been a pretty constant problem of AI Europeans not actually being able to make inroads into Asia like they did historically. The rest of the world being whacked with gigantic penalties right in 1444 was bullshit, but the same thing happening slowly and organically, with there being no imbalance at the start but a significant one (250% is a bit much but I expect that was an anomaly) towards the end of the game, makes a lot of sense for the historical sandbox the game is trying to be. The AI should try to play the game like a player, it shouldn't play the game in a particular way to force more historical outcomes; the game's mechanics should be what makes that happen. By this metric either the AI or institution spawning from development should be changed. I appreciate that this isn't necessarily required for the game to be good to play, but it should IMO be a design goal since ideally (in a world of quantum supercomputers) the AI would play just as well as a human. This line of argument is what lead to transfer of provinces to vassals being an actual thing that the UI supports and the AI takes advantage of instead of a weird exploity thing you could do to powergame. RabidWeasel fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Oct 24, 2016 |
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Oct 24, 2016 23:53
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Yeah institutions make it an actual game rather than some weird historical simulator that still never got even close.
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Oct 25, 2016 00:06
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RabidWeasel posted:The AI should try to play the game like a player Why though? That's like people not wanting the AI to cheat and stuff. I'd much rather the game be fun to play than have an AI hampered by the same rules as the player that it won't be able to cope with, or alternatively, trying to powergame. This is what multiplayer is for. e: while we're on it, the new traits system is amazing precisely because it makes the AI do all kinds of bullshit that is obviously not optimal, but that leads to a more dynamic and interesting world. Koramei fucked around with this message at 00:10 on Oct 25, 2016 |
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Oct 25, 2016 00:07
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Godlovesus posted:I think that's decent, considering the military bonuses it gives are quite dumb when coupled with Prussian ideas. Even then you're guaranteed perma 3 mil ruler, so It could be possible to keep it at 50 and/or buff it when needed I guess? I think that has a lot to do with just how easy war is. Armies are extremely cheap, move super fast (esp. relative to how long battles take), and attrition is super low. So you need to blob in order to secure yourself any sort of strategic depth. Otherwise you lose one battle and your numerically superior opponent will completely overwhelm you.
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Oct 25, 2016 00:07
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Yeah, if Ming sends a formal declaration of war to the steppe hordes they easily grab every last soldier they have and march them all across the Gobi desert with no problems whatsoever and siege down the nomad towns and forts during any season. It is a bit silly that a 1500th century kingdom can fairly effortlessly project force around their region in a way that makes the modern US army green with envy. And that's not even going into the "late" game when you can ship several tens of thousands of men, horses and cannon to siege down and snatch Rome like a piece of cake all the way from freaking Thailand.
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Oct 25, 2016 00:25
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Dear Paradox: Please allow armies in the New World who are searching for the Seven Cities to not stop exploring and become exiled whenever a war starts or ends. It's super obnoxious and unnecessary.
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Oct 25, 2016 00:30
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Also make institutions spread along trade routes.
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Oct 25, 2016 00:36
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Stairmaster posted:Also make institutions spread along trade routes. Yeah I would be down with some tweaking of Institution spread because the AI is really bad at it. Increase the spread rate especially of things like the Renaissance and Printing Press which always spawn in Europe but spread only to adjacent provinces, decrease the gain from developing a province. It's probably too easy and attractive to point-dump a province to ~40 development and seed the spread of a new Institution than it ought to be. Meanwhile, most of AI-controlled Africa and Asia will sit at 100-200% or more tech penalty because it takes centuries for Renaissance and Printing Press to spread to them. The new tech/institution system is great for players who know how to play strategically with it but really fucks over the AI.
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Oct 25, 2016 00:46
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My feeling is that the process of reversing history and getting/staying technologically on par with the Europeans, as a non-European, should be hard. It should feel like an accomplishment - otherwise, what's the difference between playing as a european nation and a non-european other than your colour on the map? Old 'westernization' certainly wasn't historical, but it accomplished the goal of being a difficult, draining process. I actually haven't played with the new expansion yet (  ), but it sounds like it's just dumping a bunch of development into one province and then paying a bunch of cash. A tax on non-Europeans, but not a threat in the way that westernization events & revolt risk could be. That's not very exciting to me, and of course it doesn't seem exceptionally historical either.I'd love to be wrong on this. Someone tell me why/how institutions are more exciting than the old westernization process - is there more fun to be had with it than "mash the develop button as Korea and steal all the institutions before Europe gets them"?
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Oct 25, 2016 01:20
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PleasingFungus posted:My feeling is that the process of reversing history and getting/staying technologically on par with the Europeans, as a non-European, should be hard. It should feel like an accomplishment - otherwise, what's the difference between playing as a european nation and a non-european other than your colour on the map? You should probably play with the new institution mechanic before forming strong opinions about it. Institutions make technology spread much more dynamic and strategic than before, although I'd agree that point-dumping into development is probably too easy of a solution even though AI doesn't take advantage of it.
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Oct 25, 2016 01:25
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PleasingFungus posted:My feeling is that the process of reversing history and getting/staying technologically on par with the Europeans, as a non-European, should be hard. It should feel like an accomplishment - otherwise, what's the difference between playing as a european nation and a non-european other than your colour on the map? Stealing institutions is actually very difficult/unlikely. They're all still far more likely to spawn in Europe. And developing for institutions is not that much more points efficient than tanking the tech penalty. Add to that that Westernization was really just pay a bunch of points, wait, and spend some money/manpower dealing with events and rebels, and I don't see how the old system could be called better in really any way.
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Oct 25, 2016 01:27
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I mean, it's not like you just summon monarch points out of the ether to develop with. Spending 2000 points to develop a province means you're markedly behind your neighbors for a few crucial years, especially since Renaissance hits right around the techs 6/7 that decide so many of the early wars. And then once you spawn it in, all your neighbors get it quickly too, so you don't even get a big advantage or anything- it just means you can keep up with the Europeans. I dunno where this conception of it being easy mode came from. And westernization was sorta draining and a nice goal to accomplish, but it was also one or two decades of sitting around doing nothing. There was definitely a rewarding feeling to it but I don't think it was a great system.
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Oct 25, 2016 01:28
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PleasingFungus posted:My feeling is that the process of reversing history and getting/staying technologically on par with the Europeans, as a non-European, should be hard. It should feel like an accomplishment - otherwise, what's the difference between playing as a european nation and a non-european other than your colour on the map? Before you has to cripple yourself to westernize. Know you can actually play the game. It's not hard to improve from westernizing, as the old method was the worst.
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Oct 25, 2016 01:28
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Before, tech penalty was just a set value and you waited until you were behind enough, punched the Westernization button, and sat around for a few decades burning points and putting down rebellions. Uninteresting mechanic and no real gameplay. Now, you have instutitions which spread "organically" and are much more dynamic. Some can spawn outside Europe, but most of them will spawn in Europe and spread outward. Spread happens faster through high-development provinces and where adjacent friendly provinces have the institution. So institution spread is based on geography, diplomacy (get friendly with your more advanced neighbor to increase spread to you), development, and other factors specific to each institution. I've said before I think it will be tweaked a bit but fundamentally it's a very cool mechanic and much improved over Westernization. Probably one of the most significant gameplay changes for EU4 yet.
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Oct 25, 2016 02:29
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I haven't played a ton yet, but my impression is that non-europeans aren't really screwed that badly, or at least not much worse than they were before. It just goes in slow cycles where they might build up to 100%+ tech cost, then catch up, then the next techs hit and so on and so forth. The latter techs spread a lot more easily too. I dunno, I guess I'll wait until I play a few games deeper.
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Oct 25, 2016 02:45
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