|
Final round next week for a position that sounds awesome but also very daunting. Going to work on a new team in a language you haven't used much is pretty intimidating but the amount of growth I feel like I could get as part of this team seems incredible.
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2016 20:35
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 12:40 |
|
|
Good Will Hrunting posted:Final round next week for a position that sounds awesome but also very daunting. Going to work on a new team in a language you haven't used much is pretty intimidating but the amount of growth I feel like I could get as part of this team seems incredible. Good luck!
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2016 20:53
|
|
|
Got rejected from a place that had me do a 6-hour take-home that I completely nailed. I guess I hosed up the 30 minute "Debug this Java code that's intentionally written poorly and has a whole slew of bugs in Sublime text without any access to the Java API docs while we sit here and watch you do it" and "Design (X) completely vague feature of a major app you've never thought about before".
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2016 19:32
|
|
|
Good Will Hrunting posted:Got rejected from a place that had me do a 6-hour take-home that I completely nailed. I guess I hosed up the 30 minute "Debug this Java code that's intentionally written poorly and has a whole slew of bugs in Sublime text without any access to the Java API docs while we sit here and watch you do it" and "Design (X) completely vague feature of a major app you've never thought about before". Did they flat out tell you they were rejecting you? Or did they just have someone else who also nailed the 6 hour take home, and did better on the 30 minute Java thing? I've never found it helpful being so critical of yourself over something that you maybe didn't even gently caress up, but just were not perfect enough for. There is a difference.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2016 19:39
|
|
|
Skandranon posted:Did they flat out tell you they were rejecting you? Or did they just have someone else who also nailed the 6 hour take home, and did better on the 30 minute Java thing? I've never found it helpful being so critical of yourself over something that you maybe didn't even gently caress up, but just were not perfect enough for. There is a difference. They gave me the "We are not continuing with your candidacy at this time. We thought your skills were lacking in a few areas and would need to see improvement before we would feel comfortable making an offer. Let us know if you'd like feedback" or some poo poo. I told them I'd love some feedback, but I think I was a bit passive-aggressive in how I told them I would love to provide some feedback about their process, which I thought went backwards after the take-home assignment. E: gently caress it, nobody is gonna guess what company it is. The question was "Design the flow of api calls, data storage, etc for the timeline feature of (major social media application)". E2: For the record I have 2.5 years of experience and am applying to just "SWE" type roles, not "Senior Engineer" or anything. Good Will Hrunting fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Oct 24, 2016 |
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2016 19:47
|
|
|
After all this, would you do another 6 hours homework ?
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2016 21:04
|
|
|
Probably not 6 hours. That said, I did a 2 hour assignment, then had a 90-minute Skype session where I had to add a feature to that. I enjoyed the assignment and the Skype session very much, actually, and hope they call me back.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2016 21:07
|
|
|
The only time I did a take home project, for DigitalOcean, they never gave me feedback or got back to me one way or the other. This was after a few skype interviews with managers that went well. So, gently caress DigitalOcean, and that's the last take home project I'll ever do. I would take an automated, time constrained coding test, though.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2016 23:40
|
|
|
I felt more inclined to do take home stuff because it's very low stress to me. I can do it in my own element and it's more reflective of me coding on a whiteboard or even Sublime. Am I just interviewing with lovely places?
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2016 23:47
|
|
|
Good Will Hrunting posted:I felt more inclined to do take home stuff because it's very low stress to me. I can do it in my own element and it's more reflective of me coding on a whiteboard or even Sublime. I had one place that wanted to do a trial 8 hour day as an interview stage. I sent back my contracting rate.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2016 02:00
|
|
|
JawnV6 posted:I had one place that wanted to do a trial 8 hour day as an interview stage. I sent back my contracting rate. 100% correct response.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2016 04:41
|
|
|
JawnV6 posted:I had one place that wanted to do a trial 8 hour day as an interview stage. I sent back my contracting rate.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2016 06:34
|
|
|
Ralith posted:Surely they can't actually expect you to be a net benefit to their company in a single day. Common wisdom seems to be that it takes at least a couple weeks for someone to ramp up and be productive. I'm sure that someone there said, "interviews are bullshit, let's put them in a REAL work environment instead!" The first part of the thought I applaud but the whole plan was not thought out very well.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2016 06:55
|
|
|
Che Delilas posted:I'm sure that someone there said, "interviews are bullshit, let's put them in a REAL work environment instead!" The first part of the thought I applaud but the whole plan was not thought out very well.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2016 06:57
|
|
|
The only take-home I got was from FutureX, which does firmware and whatnot for POS card readers. They gave me a C file and asked me to explain everything that should be changed about it. Basically the idea was to infer the intention of the code based on the function names and then fix the wrong implementation. There was no time limit but I finished it in about 30 minutes and added some suggestions on making it more consistent. They called me in for an on-site but I already had a bird in the hand by then, and San Antonio doesn't have weed stores.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2016 15:12
|
|
|
Che Delilas posted:I'm sure that someone there said, "interviews are bullshit, let's put them in a REAL work environment instead!" It's amazing how many of my interviews have tried so desperately to do this and failed so miserably.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2016 15:13
|
|
|
Ralith posted:I mean, it's manifestly not a case of trying to get work done for free. An otherwise unreasonable demand on most peoples' time? Sure. And they should compensate you for that in order to make it reasonable. If they don't suck at filtering out people before that step, it shouldn't be an unbearable cost. They're already paying multiple employees to take time away from presumably productive work to spend parts of that day with you, so it already costs the business about a day of salary or more and if they can't afford to double that, they probably can't afford to hire, either.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2016 15:36
|
|
|
In the US, they have to compensate you for a working interview at at least minimum wage.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2016 16:08
|
|
|
Ralith posted:Surely they can't actually expect you to be a net benefit to their company in a single day. Common wisdom seems to be that it takes at least a couple weeks for someone to ramp up and be productive. 2) It was a startup, so the relative complexity of the product and the company wouldn't take that long to get a simple intuition for. Think of a Kickstarter, could you materially help a kickstarter in a day? Most could benefit from a professional hour or two.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2016 17:06
|
|
|
I know of at least one company in SF that has a week long trial, not just a day. It is paid, and supposedly well, but drat I would never go for that unless it was a dream job.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2016 17:40
|
|
|
What you probably mean is you wouldn't take a week of your own vacation to work for another company. But... If you are unemployed then why not right ? And that's the problem with that kind of week-long "interview" : You filter out the more employable candidates. I believe we as devs/scrummaster/team lead/managers are to blame in part for the way we conduct interview and following the trends. I mean when we hire someone, they are on trial... If they can't do the job they will get canned within a month. I know there are countries where it's almost impossible to fire someone once you hired them but that's not the case in North America.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2016 17:49
|
|
|
Good luck learning the codebase for our major system in one month lol
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2016 18:05
|
|
|
Tbh, I don't think I've been responsible for any codebase so large that I couldn't read the whole thing within a week.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2016 18:54
|
|
|
AskYourself posted:What you probably mean is you wouldn't take a week of your own vacation to work for another company. Personally? The reason why not to do that if I'm not employed is clear: I could be spending that week interviewing for other jobs. Your second point is a good one, though, that certainly people who are unemployed or otherwise more desperate are more likely to willing to take that time.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2016 19:11
|
|
|
Counterpoint: you're gonna kvetch about the fact that every 3-5 years you have to spend several of your probably paid vacation days to score another job that will pay you 2-3x the median household income a year? 
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2016 19:36
|
|
|
Like some companies are obviously dumb: I'm not gonna do free work for you, nor am I going to quit my job to do a one month trial period where there's a 50% chance you say 'no thanks' at the end. But uhh, yeah I will bite the bullet and do a day of interviews. 2 of 3 day long interviews I've done have been paid (and travel, lodging, food was paid for all of them), the other one wasn't a ridiculous hardship or anything.
Mao Zedong Thot fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Jun 13, 2020 |
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2016 19:39
|
|
|
JawnV6 posted:1) I am that awesome. Are... are you not??  JawnV6 posted:2) It was a startup, so the relative complexity of the product and the company wouldn't take that long to get a simple intuition for. Think of a Kickstarter, could you materially help a kickstarter in a day? Most could benefit from a professional hour or two.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2016 20:07
|
|
|
Yeah not everywhere in North America is the average dev salary 2x-3x the average houseold income. But I don't know of a company here that would ask me to trial for a week. But you prove my point that we as a community are to blame for these weird hiring practice. Do they ask doctor to do a couple of trial surgery before hiring them ? Or Lawyers ? What about Structural engineer ?
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2016 20:46
|
|
|
AskYourself posted:Do they ask doctor to do a couple of trial surgery before hiring them ? Or Lawyers ? What about Structural engineer ? All of these professions are strictly licensed, and getting a license requires demonstrating competence in the field. I'm not aware of any real equivalent in software dev.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2016 20:47
|
|
|
Here calling yourself a Software Engineer do require a license. Here is not silicon valley of course. Truth is, getting your license does not prove you are a good dev. AskYourself fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Oct 25, 2016 |
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2016 20:58
|
|
|
All of those professions actually do practical poo poo in schooling and internships, fellowships, etc for their profession. The problem is arrogance, autism, and the fetishization of the 10x developer, which everyone thinks they are making a pretty poo poo, uneven, and impractical interview process. My preference would be 3 1-hour sessions of coding a real problem on a laptop on-sight somewhere. I'd even do that twice somewhere I really liked the company.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2016 21:00
|
|
|
Yeah I agree. It's a big ego game where we expect candidate to play a game of wits with the interviewer while at the same time the candidate must not show total dominance over his interviewee or he'll fear for his own position. Also we would like others to see our brillance without having to go through said game of wits. Catch-22 and all that. 
AskYourself fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Oct 25, 2016 |
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2016 21:03
|
|
|
VOTE YES ON 69 posted:Counterpoint: you're gonna kvetch about the fact that every 3-5 years you have to spend several of your probably paid vacation days to score another job that will pay you 2-3x the median household income a year? Counter-counterpoint: the salary you end up with ought not to justify loving with you during the hiring process whether it's minimum wage or six figgie fucktard level. Maybe if your base puts you in 1%er territory, but then there should be some public humiliation involved to cross that line.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2016 22:18
|
|
|
I'd rather the process for hiring devs be more like hiring experienced sales guys: What have you built and how has it benefited previous companies (quantifiable metrics)? What value are you bringing to me, your new employer, that I can quantify in the first few months? And then, if after a few months you don't deliver, they shitcan you.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2016 22:22
|
|
|
Ralith posted:We're talking about a company's reasonable expectations for an typical new engineering employee, not anyone's particular abilities AskYourself posted:It's a big ego game where we expect candidate to play a game of wits with the interviewer while at the same time the candidate must not show total dominance over his interviewee or he'll fear for his own position. But for pollyanna and other folks in the peanut gallery: someone demonstrating they can take every single one of your responsibilities and execute on them should be a joyous moment. In a well-run company it means you're freed up to work on bigger & better things. Training your own replacement happens, but it should be outside of normal operating conditions. AskYourself posted:Truth is, getting your license does not prove you are a good dev. VOTE YES ON 69 posted:Counterpoint: you're gonna kvetch about the fact that every 3-5 years you have to spend several of your probably paid vacation days to score another job that will pay you 2-3x the median household income a year?
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2016 22:30
|
|
|
B-Nasty posted:I'd rather the process for hiring devs be more like hiring experienced sales guys: How are you possibly going to get quantifiable metrics for individual software engineers and attach meaning to them? It's also pretty much impossible for an outsider to quantify value to a company as it's going to be project based.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2016 22:48
|
|
|
asur posted:How are you possibly going to get quantifiable metrics for individual software engineers and attach meaning to them? It's also pretty much impossible for an outsider to quantify value to a company as it's going to be project based.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2016 23:51
|
|
|
You have some good point, individuals can bring in some values by accomplishing tasks. A lot of people could claim the fame to that : The Executive who assigned the budget needed to hire you, the manager and dev(s) who decided to hire you, the business analyst who came up with the story, the product owner who pruned the backlog to include that feature, the software architect who designed how to implement the solution, you for actually coding it, the QA analyst who made sure it was bug free, the previous dev who coded regression test to make sure you didn't break anything, the DevOps team who deployed that feature, you go go as far as saying the payroll clerk who wrote your check so that you would sit still long enough to produce the required code. Maybe the company you work at does not have all these positions and you came up with the idea and did all the politic work to make it happen as well as the technical know-how to execute it, but it's never as black and white as saying it is only one individual who made it happen. I agree that coming with these points (I made this and it improved that by x percent) does show a concern the big picture. I probably sound sour, and I have no real solution to that problem. What I know is the first step to fix a problem is recognize it and identify my place in that problem. Then I can find a solution.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 00:47
|
|
|
Ralith posted:There's all kinds of software contributions that can drastically reduce the amount of datacenter floorspace, specialized hardware, or bandwidth you have to buy, or improve customer retention, or bring in customers from competitors. Uber had a blog post a while back where they boasted about how they'd replaced JSON with a more compact format and saved a ton on archival storage (speaking of fixes you could come up with in under an hour...). There's also all kinds of contributions that don't do any of those nice quantifiable things, unfortunately. That's exactly my point. Even if we ignore that pretty much all of that is done by teams and not a single person, someone could be in Adwords for Google and increase revenue by hundreds of millions of dollars while the person working on autonomous vehicles at a startup isn't generating any revenue. Even in the same company it's hard to quantifiably rate software engineers and it's going to be even harder across companies. It's also not simplistic for large companies to fire people. While the law in most of not all states allows for firing without cause, companies are still worried about being sued for discrimination. I assume sales gets around this since they have hard metrics to point to, but the same isn't true for software engineering.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 00:50
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 12:40 |
|
|
My point is that sometimes you can plausibly claim to have quantitatively benefited a company, and there's a benefit to be had in taking advantage of that, perhaps even to the point of specifically seeking out roles/tasks that enable it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 01:02
|
|