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Wizchine posted:Or something else comes, and God took mortal form just to stop it. Maybe it's a bit like Sandman Slim where God stole the universe from the Old Ones and they periodically come knocking because they want it back. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 12:49 on Oct 22, 2016 |
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Oct 22, 2016 12:44
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Turn Coat is another one of the top Dresden Files books for me, in large part for finally exploring a group that's always been around in the series but until now has never been the focus of events or gotten a look at how they operate: the White Council. Proven Guilty looked at the Wardens, but this is the first time we meet the Merlin and Ancient Mai, learn that the White Council has a secret fortress in Scotland, and otherwise we finally start to see the inner workings of one of the most powerful supernatural organizations in the setting. I kind of wish Morgan survived this book, as I like his relationship with Luccio and Dresden, but if he had to go this book's a good way to do it. Could have done without the young-and-sexy Luccio, but I suppose her fancy anti-magic swords would have been a bit too much for Dresden to have one - one would solve far too many problems. With Changes coming up next, the crazy train is leaving the station.
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Oct 23, 2016 23:31
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I wonder how Morgan alive and indebted to Harry would (if at all) have impacted the events of Changes.
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Oct 24, 2016 01:39
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Cythereal posted:Turn Coat is another one of the top Dresden Files books for me, in large part for finally exploring a group that's always been around in the series but until now has never been the focus of events or gotten a look at how they operate: the White Council. Proven Guilty looked at the Wardens, but this is the first time we meet the Merlin and Ancient Mai, learn that the White Council has a secret fortress in Scotland, and otherwise we finally start to see the inner workings of one of the most powerful supernatural organizations in the setting. I kind of wish Morgan survived this book, as I like his relationship with Luccio and Dresden, but if he had to go this book's a good way to do it. Could have done without the young-and-sexy Luccio, but I suppose her fancy anti-magic swords would have been a bit too much for Dresden to have one - one would solve far too many problems. I like the fact that Harry finds out that his relationship with Luccio is a complete lie. I mean, I don't like it, but I felt it was good plot beat. That's when it became pretty obvious to me that all this tragedy and beat downs (emotionally, physically...) are tempering him to deal with something momentous in the future. Nothing in his life is bad or good luck. It's all capital-D Destiny.
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Oct 24, 2016 02:59
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Wheat Loaf posted:I wonder how Morgan alive and indebted to Harry would (if at all) have impacted the events of Changes. I really hated that is how it ended because it felt like an unsatisfying cop-out to avoid having to write the character in any way that isn't Giant Shithead and I honestly had been interested in seeing that.
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Oct 24, 2016 03:01
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flosofl posted:I like the fact that Harry finds out that his relationship with Luccio is a complete lie. I mean, I don't like it, but I felt it was good plot beat. That's when it became pretty obvious to me that all this tragedy and beat downs (emotionally, physically...) are tempering him to deal with something momentous in the future. Nothing in his life is bad or good luck. It's all capital-D Destiny. To me, this became obvious in Small Favor. No wizard of the White Council has been entrusted with a Sword of the Cross since the original Merlin - and none at all have ever been given custody of two. Uriel likewise doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who does anything without a drat good reason, and I think he too knows something is coming and is preparing Harry for it. For that matter, I'm suspicious of the Archive's role in things as well. I'm wondering if maybe love is the key difference between the Harrys in Mirror Mirror when that book eventually comes out - that Harry married Susan, perhaps, or took any of the opportunities to sleep with Murphy or Molly which lead to something more. That's the kind of seemingly positive change that could have all sorts of repercussions down the line.
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Oct 24, 2016 03:22
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A friend of mine has a theory that the major change in Harry's life is that he returns Mouse instead of keeping him and the end result is that Mouse isn't there for a lot of small but significant things.
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Oct 24, 2016 03:24
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Another subtle one that jumps out at me: not giving the Archive the name Ivy. Names have power in the Dresden-verse, and the Senior Council notes that Dresden was playing with powers and forces he couldn't begin to comprehend by giving the Archive a name.
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Oct 24, 2016 03:27
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Cythereal posted:I'm wondering if maybe love is the key difference between the Harrys in Mirror Mirror when that book eventually comes out - that Harry married Susan, perhaps, or took any of the opportunities to sleep with Murphy or Molly which lead to something more. That's the kind of seemingly positive change that could have all sorts of repercussions down the line. My guess is that he takes Susan as his guest to the ball instead of Michael. Because of this she's a guest there and protected by guest rights. Since she doesn't get in trouble, Harry doesn't start the war with the Red Court. Since he doesn't start it early, the Red Court gets to finish its preparations and it kicks off the war with a huge surprise attack and it sandbags the White Council. With the White Council immediately in a bad position because of this, Harry ends up in a position where dark magic is the only way to save Susan or himself. And once you're a little bit bent, it gets more and more tempting to bend a bit more... and you follow that road of good intentions and you end up at Evil Harry.
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Oct 24, 2016 04:48
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Was thinking about Summer Knight earlier in the day. When Lea and Harry are at the stone table, Lea warns Harry never to let Mab bring him there. It was implied that Mab might sacrifice him, but in hindsight, it seems Lea had an idea of what Mab was planning all along. I wondered if this might have been Nemesis-infected Lea trying to steer Harry away from Mab, but Lea repeats it in Changes, which torpedoes that. ImpAtom posted:I really hated that is how it ended because it felt like an unsatisfying cop-out to avoid having to write the character in any way that isn't Giant Shithead and I honestly had been interested in seeing that. I really liked the way the perception of Morgan changed at around Dead Beat. At first I thought he was just one of those by the book heel characters, the angry captain to Dirty Harry. Then he gets more depth at about the same time Harry realizes, by God, that everything does not begin and end with him. It would have been nice to see more of Morgan, but at least he had a very poignant death. Cythereal posted:That's the kind of seemingly positive change that could have all sorts of repercussions down the line. Pretty sure Jim said that the choice in question was in Grave Peril. If it could be anything throughout the series, oh man, there are a ton of decisions you can move around. It's another four years or so until Mirror Mirror, so we've got plenty of time to guess.
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Oct 24, 2016 05:06
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NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:Was thinking about Summer Knight earlier in the day. Lea does have an obligation to protect Harry, and let's face it, is being the Winter Knight really GOOD for that goal? I certainly wouldn't recommend the job to anybody I wanted to continue breathing. As for knowing what Mab planned, I seem to recall she made the offer already at the end of Summer Knight, so wouldn't take much for Lea to be aware of the situation by the time she warned Harry in the book.
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Oct 24, 2016 05:50
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Well, Lea taught Harry how to harden up by trying to turn him into a dog for a few decades. Mab's version was to try and murder him every day, so... yeah? Being the Winter Knight has some serious obligations, but it also gets him closer to a number of powerful entities, outside the reach of the Council, and further away from his humanity. A number of the knights have lived for a long time.
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Oct 24, 2016 06:48
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Taking Susan as his guest made sense to me as the choice until my last reread. There was a conversation between, I think Harry and Michael?, and the gist was "Bianca was going to make sure this happened, one way or another." The choice may be to take Susan, but I don't think that would have stopped or slowed the war.
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Oct 24, 2016 10:54
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Cythereal posted:To me, this became obvious in Small Favor. No wizard of the White Council has been entrusted with a Sword of the Cross since the original Merlin - and none at all have ever been given custody of two. Uriel likewise doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who does anything without a drat good reason, and I think he too knows something is coming and is preparing Harry for it. For that matter, I'm suspicious of the Archive's role in things as well. I'm not going to speculate on what the exact change is going to be, but I like the theory that it's something that will have resulted in Mirror Harry having a 'better'/happier life, which initially makes it seem like 'our' Harry is the gently caress-up/broken and failed one. But of course all the pain Harry has been through has been For A Purpose and so Mirror Harry won't be up to dealing with what's coming (if it happens in his dimension) because he's soft.
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Oct 24, 2016 15:40
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The choice that Harry makes differently will be that he never visits Bianca directly in the early part of Storm Front. Never has a confrontation with her where he destroys her flesh mask and humiliates her to where she feeds/kills someone, giving her the desire for revenge that leads to the problems later on. Remember, Bianca never had the focus that would help elevate her to the higher levels of the Court where she could be a problem until that happened. She was happy to run a brothel and never have anything to do with Dresden. She still would probably be taken out by Marcone later on, but the direct conflict with Dresden wouldn't happen. Yes, the Red Court vs. White Council war would still happen, but a lot of other things that Harry was involved in that stemmed from pissing Bianca off would not, so he'd be in a weaker position for later confrontations.
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Oct 24, 2016 16:40
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WarLocke posted:I'm not going to speculate on what the exact change is going to be, but I like the theory that it's something that will have resulted in Mirror Harry having a 'better'/happier life, which initially makes it seem like 'our' Harry is the gently caress-up/broken and failed one. But of course all the pain Harry has been through has been For A Purpose and so Mirror Harry won't be up to dealing with what's coming (if it happens in his dimension) because he's soft. I'm partial to the idea that it was less a foot wrong than a foot sideways - say, use Turn Coat as the turning point once removed. For whatever reason, the different decision earlier, even if it seems harmless, leads him not to claim Demonreach as a sanctum. The events of the book still happen and Harry wins, but he doesn't become the Warden of Demonreach. And that puts destiny seriously askew for any number of reasons involving Demonreach, its origins, and its power.
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Oct 24, 2016 16:41
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Cythereal posted:For whatever reason, the different decision earlier, even if it seems harmless, leads him not to claim Demonreach as a sanctum. The events of the book still happen and Harry wins, but he doesn't become the Warden of Demonreach. And that puts destiny seriously askew for any number of reasons involving Demonreach, its origins, and its power. What if Demonreach's construction means it can only have one Warden throughout multiple causalities, such that either our Harry is the only one who is actually the Warden, or better, that all Harry's are technically Warden and they just don't all know it and might make some bad decisions regarding the island.
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Oct 24, 2016 17:35
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Cythereal posted:Another subtle one that jumps out at me: not giving the Archive the name Ivy. Names have power in the Dresden-verse, and the Senior Council notes that Dresden was playing with powers and forces he couldn't begin to comprehend by giving the Archive a name. I really love Ivy and I want to see more of her asap
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Oct 24, 2016 18:06
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A. Beaverhausen posted:I really love Ivy and I want to see more of her asap  Probably already mentioned, but what if Harry and Susan had never slept together? The baby never would have happened, Susan would have less tying her to her human side and maybe goes full vampire, Harry never ends the Red Court, and Harry also misses out on another reason to fight (the baby).
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Oct 24, 2016 18:25
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I am really interesting in seeing if/when Harry gets out from under Mab's thumb. There's been some speculation that Harry's back is fully healed and Mab just breaks it again when he tries to disobey her. It would be very Mab thing to do, hold something over Harry's head that isn't really there.
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Oct 24, 2016 18:42
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Calidus posted:I am really interesting in seeing if/when Harry gets out from under Mab's thumb. There's been some speculation that Harry's back is fully healed and Mab just breaks it again when he tries to disobey her. It would be very Mab thing to do, hold something over Harry's head that isn't really there. Nah, it took several years for Harry's hand to regain function. A broken spine would take a very long time to heal on it's own with Wizardly healing factor at play.
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Oct 24, 2016 19:37
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Brent weeks (lightbringer and night angel series) is doing an AMA https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/595vzx/i_am_epic_fantasy_author_brent_weeks_i_talk_to/
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Oct 24, 2016 21:08
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A. Beaverhausen posted:I really love Ivy and I want to see more of her asap Harry names several things throughout the book..I can't help but wonder if there is some significance to that or am I giving Butcher credit for subtlety that he doesn't deserve?
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Oct 25, 2016 05:50
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vulturesrow posted:Harry names several things throughout the book..I can't help but wonder if there is some significance to that or am I giving Butcher credit for subtlety that he doesn't deserve? I've wondered the same thing. I mean you have Ivy, Lash, Demonreach, Bob
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Oct 25, 2016 15:01
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Of course there is significance, its directly said that there is. Naming Demonreach is part of what gives Harry control over it. Naming Lash as a seperate identity from Lasciel gives her autonomy and is what allows her to make decisions different from that of th actual angel. Bob adopts personality and traits as part of his owner, and although we havent seen it yet Im fairly sure they specifically say that by Harry naming Ivy has serious implications that we are not aware of yet.
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Oct 25, 2016 15:11
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Uriel also flips out when Dresden truncates his name.
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Oct 25, 2016 16:08
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There's an ongoing rumor that Dresden's use of naming may have literal actual power he doesn't realize, and it's pretty plausible and would be a sensible twist. It also would kind of tie interestingly into the Outsider stuff if Harry also to some degree can change the nature of a powerful being.
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Oct 25, 2016 16:17
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Ornamented Death posted:Uriel also flips out when Dresden truncates his name. In that case, it's also fairly understandable. Harry calls him "Uri." That -el means "of God." When you're talking about an archangel who's heaven's black bag man, that -el is not something you want to lose.
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Oct 25, 2016 16:27
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Remember that Harry's talked about the importance of names several times early on in the series, most prominently when he's calling on supernatural critters.
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Oct 25, 2016 16:35
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Cythereal posted:In that case, it's also fairly understandable. Harry calls him "Uri." That -el means "of God." When you're talking about an archangel who's heaven's black bag man, that -el is not something you want to lose. "Can I just call you El?" "Yeah that's fine"
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Oct 25, 2016 17:35
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Tunicate posted:"Can I just call you El?" Mr. Sunshine is also acceptable.
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Oct 25, 2016 17:53
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Aerdan posted:Remember that Harry's talked about the importance of names several times early on in the series, most prominently when he's calling on supernatural critters. Yeah, let's not forget summoning Mother Winter. He actually hurt her, and he was mostly guessing some of her names.
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Oct 25, 2016 18:00
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Remember in like Fool Moon or something there's a scene where Harry gives out one of his middle names to a really low-level demon and has to be really careful to name himself "Harry Blackstone Dresden" in such a way that it's not obvious he still has "Copperfield" to give away too? (Implication also being that he's given two names to this guy already.)
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Oct 25, 2016 18:41
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Also how big a deal it was when Ferrovax swatted Harry down just by saying his first name. Not even his whole name, just "Harry", with no truly specific effort being put into hurting him, and making it clear that he was letting Harry back up as he started talking to Michael rather than it being anything special on Harry's part that lets him get back up.
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Oct 25, 2016 18:47
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And finished Changes. What to say about it beyond that it's a roller-coaster ride from start to finish? Did notice a few things that I hadn't my first time - continuing the Harry-Merlin parallels, Ebenezar notes that Merlin learned from Odin. And somehow I'd completely missed Mouse talking during the dog part. It seems official now that Mouse isn't just a temple dog but a fully fledged Foo Dog, what with Lea calling him a demon and Ancient Mai in a previous book recognizing him as one. I'd be interested to learn more about Mouse and his fellows, Asian mythology is rare in this series.
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Oct 25, 2016 19:21
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vulturesrow posted:Harry names several things throughout the book..I can't help but wonder if there is some significance to that or am I giving Butcher credit for subtlety that he doesn't deserve? I don't know if its subtle. In the horror-con book he directly names one of the monsters and then starts kicking its rear end. Like theres a few paragraphs dedicated to harry saying why naming something is powerful.
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Oct 25, 2016 19:24
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I also remember in Dead Beat that when he's pleading with Bob (then in Cowl's possession) to remember him that one of the things he says is that he gave Bob a name.
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Oct 25, 2016 19:46
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Keystoned posted:Of course there is significance, its directly said that there is. Naming Demonreach is part of what gives Harry control over it. Naming Lash as a seperate identity from Lasciel gives her autonomy and is what allows her to make decisions different from that of th actual angel. Bob adopts personality and traits as part of his owner, and although we havent seen it yet Im fairly sure they specifically say that by Harry naming Ivy has serious implications that we are not aware of yet. Yeah, I'm aware of all that, I was more referring to along the lines of this: ImpAtom posted:There's an ongoing rumor that Dresden's use of naming may have literal actual power he doesn't realize, and it's pretty plausible and would be a sensible twist. It also would kind of tie interestingly into the Outsider stuff if Harry also to some degree can change the nature of a powerful being.
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Oct 25, 2016 20:40
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When did speculation become rumor? That's weird.
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Oct 25, 2016 21:12
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Ornamented Death posted:When did speculation become rumor? That's weird. Someone called it a rumor so it became a rumor. Naming is just that powerful.
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Oct 25, 2016 21:18
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