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DariusLikewise posted:Sincome because wealth distribution is a sin. Murdercome because taxes are theft
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Oct 26, 2016 21:07
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Rust Martialis posted:Question for mincome - how do you handle cost of living variations based on geography? Interestingly, there's a potential to revive withering rural communities if young people aren't forced to move to the cities to survive simply because of the complete dearth of employment.
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Oct 26, 2016 21:21
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Rust Martialis posted:Question for mincome - how do you handle cost of living variations based on geography? Should we? The Maritimes badly need an influx of workers and economy. If there was an incentive to move there...
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Oct 26, 2016 21:25
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infernal machines posted:Interestingly, there's a potential to revive withering rural communities if young people aren't forced to move to the cities to survive simply because of the complete dearth of employment. have decent density and public transit and rural communities are a great option
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Oct 26, 2016 21:26
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Landsknecht posted:have decent density and public transit and rural communities are a great option Aren't those just suburbs?
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Oct 26, 2016 21:30
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Brannock posted:Should we? The Maritimes badly need an influx of workers and economy. If there was an incentive to move there... The line between giving people 'incentive' to move to Fredericton and punishing them for preferring Vancouver is blurry to me. Do you see the concern?
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Oct 26, 2016 21:34
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Postess with the Mostest posted:Aren't those just suburbs? No, Germany is a good example (and one I know better), where there are over 80 million people, but only about 5 cities that officially have more than 1 million inhabitants. Towns have built their own identities, and having higher-density housing in small areas keep prices low (and makes it easier to commute without a vehicle), and there's enough space on the periphery for industry.
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Oct 26, 2016 21:37
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Rust Martialis posted:The line between giving people 'incentive' to move to Fredericton and punishing them for preferring Vancouver is blurry to me. Do you see the concern? Vancouver punishes people for preferring it by being rainy, hellishly expensive and full of pricks. Why would the government need to do anything?
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Oct 26, 2016 22:15
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Landsknecht posted:No, Germany is a good example (and one I know better), where there are over 80 million people, but only about 5 cities that officially have more than 1 million inhabitants. Towns have built their own identities, and having higher-density housing in small areas keep prices low (and makes it easier to commute without a vehicle), and there's enough space on the periphery for industry. There's this weird idea in north america that poo poo like walkability or basic transit is some unlock your town gets once it gets to a certain high population and there's no way around that. Below that, well, there's no other option than horrible sprawling rural nothingness linked by dirt a paved roads that are incredibly unsafe and uncomfortable to walk or bike on not that anyone could because everyone needs to live hundreds of meters apart on huge properties they mostly don't use otherwise it's agenda-21. There's tons of towns in the 20-50k range that have dense walkable cores and minimal rural sprawl and actual transit systems. They tend to be a fairly dense little village/town with narrow streets and row buildings that give way to detached but still densely placed houses that then give way to farms and countryside with a fairly clear delineation. North american rural development is the absolute loving worst in the world though. We don't even do villages, it's just a random huge area where everyone's as spaced out from each other as possible and there's no centre at all. It's like someone sat down and did the math on how to have the most infrastructure for the smallest tax base, then they all bitch about the lack of services and how everything around them is crumbling. It doesn't matter how big your country is or how much open space exists, it doesn't matter if you're a community of 500 or 5 million, sprawling out as wide and sparse as possible is dumb and wasteful as poo poo and leads to poor garbage communities.
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Oct 26, 2016 22:17
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Landsknecht posted:No, Germany is a good example (and one I know better), where there are over 80 million people, but only about 5 cities that officially have more than 1 million inhabitants. Towns have built their own identities, and having higher-density housing in small areas keep prices low (and makes it easier to commute without a vehicle), and there's enough space on the periphery for industry. And the rail network! I would LOVE to live in a dense little town like this (maybe a bit bigger).  Enough shops in the center that you can most of your day to day shopping by foot. The baker knows you by name. Neighbours say hello in the streets. When you need to head to the big city for work (only a couple days a week of course in my unrealistic Euro fantasy), just ride your bike down to the local station and catch a high speed commuter train. 
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Oct 26, 2016 22:20
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Baronjutter posted:We don't even do villages, it's just a random huge area where everyone's as spaced out from each other as possible and there's no centre at all. It's like someone sat down and did the math on how to have the most infrastructure for the smallest tax base, then they all bitch about the lack of services and how everything around them is crumbling. It doesn't matter how big your country is or how much open space exists, it doesn't matter if you're a community of 500 or 5 million, sprawling out as wide and sparse as possible is dumb and wasteful as poo poo and leads to poor garbage communities. Look pal, I didn't move out to the township of East Bumblefuck so that I could see my neighbours. And you can thank Via for killing their commuter service that used to bring people from otherwise tiny bedroom communities like Havelock to Toronto and back every day.
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Oct 26, 2016 22:22
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The Butcher posted:Enough shops in the center that you can most of your day to day shopping by foot. The baker knows you by name. Neighbours say hello in the streets. My German buddy is always ragging on Canada for how stupid it is here. You mean you get to live rent free while going to school? Wait, they actually give you money too?! Surely Germany must have some deep dark secret
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Oct 26, 2016 22:27
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Baronjutter posted:There's this weird idea in north america that poo poo like walkability or basic transit is some unlock your town gets once it gets to a certain high population and there's no way around that. Below that, well, there's no other option than horrible sprawling rural nothingness linked by dirt a paved roads that are incredibly unsafe and uncomfortable to walk or bike on not that anyone could because everyone needs to live hundreds of meters apart on huge properties they mostly don't use otherwise it's agenda-21. There's tons of towns in the 20-50k range that have dense walkable cores and minimal rural sprawl and actual transit systems. They tend to be a fairly dense little village/town with narrow streets and row buildings that give way to detached but still densely placed houses that then give way to farms and countryside with a fairly clear delineation. North american rural development is the absolute loving worst in the world though. We don't even do villages, it's just a random huge area where everyone's as spaced out from each other as possible and there's no centre at all. It's like someone sat down and did the math on how to have the most infrastructure for the smallest tax base, then they all bitch about the lack of services and how everything around them is crumbling. It doesn't matter how big your country is or how much open space exists, it doesn't matter if you're a community of 500 or 5 million, sprawling out as wide and sparse as possible is dumb and wasteful as poo poo and leads to poor garbage communities. It's always mindblowing to gently caress around with streetview in eastern russia, and seeing these "little towns" which are 6 story apartment buildings edge to edge. places like Sayansk with a population of 40k and 5km corner to corner. Roughly the same size, physically, as stettler, a town of 5,800 people here. Same scale here, both lines here are 3.9km.  
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Oct 26, 2016 22:32
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The Butcher posted:And the rail network! Woah what is this agenda-21 bullshit? Buildings next to each other? Most people being able to walk to most destinations? A fairly clear delineation between village and countryside??  Here's Tabor, a small town of 34,000 people. It has a train station and a single bus line. It's a dense medival city centre with a bit of soviet sprawl around it, but you can still walk from the farthest apartment block to the city centre in like 20-30 min tops. Beyond that, actual nature and farmland. Compare that to any typical "town" of similar size in Canada and you come up with total garbage 99% of the time.  You can see the medival centre just above the bend in the river. My grandpa lived in one of the soviet blocks to the north west, did not need to own a car because you could walk everywhere. Train station with frequent service is just under the "Tabor" text on the map, and industrial lands to the east. Between the station and the medieval centre are newer buildings, but still row buildings forming street walls.  Houses with yards exist, but are mostly row or semi-detached houses along narrow pleasant streets. The train service is good enough that you can quite easily walk to the train station and be in a million+ sized city in about an hour, which you can then also navigate entirely on foot as well. No personal vehicle required at any stage. Of course if you want one, that's no problem too, it's just not forced on you. For some reason the whole anglosphere is terrified of street walls and row buildings. It's hard enough getting people in cities to allow the gradual densification from detached houses to row buildings, trying to "push" that on rural canadians is impossible. Cities need suburban houses and rurals need massive acreages otherwise our culture simply cannot reproduce or continue. If people aren't forced to buy and maintain a car and waste a huge portion of their day driving or stuck in traffic, it's an attack on our values and way of life.
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Oct 26, 2016 22:44
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Postess with the Mostest posted:Speaking of Saskatchewan - Colten Bushie story Talk about a different story then when this first came out. Remember the first new stories said the group claimed they were there because of a flat tire and the farmer just randomly decided to kill some natives? Seems the comments on the cbc article about problems with vehicle theft in that area were right. Doesnt excuse him bringing out a firearm for that type of offence though, what a totally reckless and horrible thing for the farm owner to do. patonthebach fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Oct 26, 2016 |
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Oct 26, 2016 22:50
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patonthebach posted:Talk about a different story then when this first came out. Remember the first new stories said the group claimed they were there because of a flat tire and the farmer just randomly decided to kill some natives? Seems the comments on the cbc article about problems with vehicle theft in that area were right. Doesnt excuse him bringing out a firearm for that type of offence though, what a totally reckless and horrible thing for the farm owner to do. I work casually at a youth detention centre, I'd say the average time a youth that committed theft under 5000+trespassing+drunk driving would spend in custody would probably be between 60-150 days. Gerald Stanley decided the appropriate punishment for these crimes was death. gently caress Rurals, this ignorant hick deserves the 10+ years he'll spend in prison
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Oct 26, 2016 23:09
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patonthebach posted:Talk about a different story then when this first came out. Remember the first new stories said the group claimed they were there because of a flat tire and the farmer just randomly decided to kill some natives? Seems the comments on the cbc article about problems with vehicle theft in that area were right. Doesnt excuse him bringing out a firearm for that type of offence though, what a totally reckless and horrible thing for the farm owner to do. Canadian History X
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Oct 26, 2016 23:10
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The Butcher posted:From the last 2 days or so of discussion, I think thread consensus seems to be the opposite to this. Nah gently caress that.
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Oct 26, 2016 23:11
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DariusLikewise posted:Someone posted an interesting study the last time mincome came up about how much tax revenue would be increased at certain levels of mincome. The first step before implementing mincome would be fixing our loving tax brackets though. Whats wrong with our tax brackets?
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Oct 26, 2016 23:12
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A Typical Goon posted:I work casually at a youth detention centre, I'd say the average time a youth that committed theft under 5000+trespassing+drunk driving would spend in custody would probably be between 60-150 days. Gerald Stanley decided the appropriate punishment for these crimes was death. gently caress Rurals, this ignorant hick deserves the 10+ years he'll spend in prison Stealing a car / ATV isnt the same as theft under 5000 in terms of sentencing. Regardless, it was a gigantic over-reaction with tragic consequences. gently caress that particular farmer, not all rurals, you look as just as much as a bigot when you single out an entire group like that.
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Oct 26, 2016 23:14
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patonthebach posted:Whats wrong with our tax brackets? They barely scale past a fairly decent upper middle class income. They need to keep scaling up. I'd love to see a revenue-positive tax bracket adjustment that saw people on the lowest ends paying little to nothing and people on the higher ends paying way more and the extra revenue pumped into some sort of mincome and better services. Also, I don't care if it needs a bloody pogrom, make dental, eyecare, and psychology/therapy covered by the new health system that doesn't have loving premiums. Oh and ditch any support/funding towards alt-med quacks if we're messing with health funding and coverage.
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Oct 26, 2016 23:19
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patonthebach posted:Whats wrong with our tax brackets? We live in a world where wealth is being funneled to the top at such an alarming rate that there are billionaires out there that literally don't know what else to spend their money on and yet income past 200K is only taxed federally at 33% Of course most billionaires claim most of their income as capital gains and stuff and not straight income, which is far less. That's insanity.
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Oct 26, 2016 23:19
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Then you get plumbers and tech bros making 90k who insist that half their income goes to taxes 
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Oct 26, 2016 23:22
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"No man if I get that raise I'll actually end up with less money because of tax brackets! Why can't it just be a simple fair flat tax??" -An alarming majority of idiot taxpayers in this country.
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Oct 26, 2016 23:24
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really everything should just be a poll tax because gently caress the poor
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Oct 26, 2016 23:28
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EvilJoven posted:We live in a world where wealth is being funneled to the top at such an alarming rate that there are billionaires out there that literally don't know what else to spend their money on and yet income past 200K is only taxed federally at 33% So what happens to the skilled workers/small business owners that make between 100k-500k that leave Canada once they are taxed more than 60-70% on their total money in?
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Oct 26, 2016 23:30
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EvilJoven posted:Nah gently caress that. Ok, well you get the revolution off the ground and gaining steam without getting killed or arrested, and then once victory seems likely I'll join up and claim I never had any doubts. It's the timing of joining the revolution that's the tricky part to nail down. Too early and you wind up as a dead terrorist/dead heroic martyr, too late and you end up as a dead coward traitor to the cause.
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Oct 26, 2016 23:33
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Baronjutter posted:"No man if I get that raise I'll actually end up with less money because of tax brackets! Why can't it just be a simple fair flat tax??" Nah bruh, it's not just income tax, you're forgetting all the other taxes, fuckin HST, property tax, land tax, carbon tax, gas tax, road tax, bridge tolls, ICBC, hydro, I'm taxed to death over here *as he polishes his third son's snowmobile* Juul-Whip fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Oct 26, 2016 |
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Oct 26, 2016 23:32
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patonthebach posted:So what happens to the skilled workers/small business owners that make between 100k-500k that leave Canada once they are taxed more than 60-70% on their total money in? Ya that's the oldest argument in the book and you can shove it up your corn hole, bud.
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Oct 26, 2016 23:35
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The fact is ridiculously giant enterprises get to carry the label 'small business' and that in itself is asinine and aside from pulling massive overtime no 'skilled worker' or actual small business owner is taking in that much income annually. For the rich, they can either gently caress off and go live somewhere else surrounded by tall fences and armed guards or accept the fact that giving up some of their wealth is the price you pay for living in a safe nation surrounded by well educated and properly employed people. Better yet implement better restrictions on trade with businesses housed overseas for tax purposes as well as restricting the flow of capital out of the country. Want access to our market? Come here and do business here.
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Oct 26, 2016 23:40
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EvilJoven posted:We live in a world where wealth is being funneled to the top at such an alarming rate that there are billionaires out there that literally don't know what else to spend their money on and yet income past 200K is only taxed federally at 33% Yeah, just a reminder that the United States (noted progressive country) has a similar 33% income tax bracket starting around the same around, but also 35% and 39.6% brackets as well as the AMT. The bolded part is probably the bigger problem, though. We also have a unique Canadian handout to people receiving stock options as well, which the Liberal government dropped after a bunch of whining from the startup community (of course, the vast majority of their stock options will never be worth anything): http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...rticle29337792/
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Oct 26, 2016 23:41
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The Butcher posted:Ok, well you get the revolution off the ground and gaining steam without getting killed or arrested, and then once victory seems likely I'll join up and claim I never had any doubts. Ya I'll pass but in the meantime I'm not lifting a finger to keep this little rotting apple of an economy lasting past the rapidly approaching expiration date. EDIT: the last time I tried to pick the least worst rational decision we elected the Liberals and look how that's turning out. I've given up on trying to keep things as calm as possible in this pot that's coming to a boil. EvilJoven fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Oct 26, 2016 |
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Oct 26, 2016 23:42
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patonthebach posted:So what happens to the skilled workers/small business owners that make between 100k-500k that leave Canada once they are taxed more than 60-70% on their total money in? Hold on, back up, are these the same businesses that were stockpiling government cutbacks for years without actually using them for R&D or expansion or further employment or anything? Or the businesses that haven't already outsourced everything, but totally will if their taxes go up further? Are the business owners the same wealthy people who have been using loopholes and offshore tax havens to skip out on paying some portion of their (already lower than the US's) taxes? Some overlap of all three?
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Oct 26, 2016 23:42
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EvilJoven posted:Ya that's the oldest argument in the book and you can shove it up your corn hole, bud. Your Tim Hortons 30 minute certified fresh CornHole.
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Oct 26, 2016 23:42
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EvilJoven posted:The fact is ridiculously giant enterprises get to carry the label 'small business' and that in itself is asinine and aside from pulling massive overtime no 'skilled worker' or actual small business owner is taking in that much income annually. You don't think there are skilled workers making $100K?
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Oct 26, 2016 23:55
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JawKnee posted:Hold on, back up, are these the same businesses that were stockpiling government cutbacks for years without actually using them for R&D or expansion or further employment or anything? Or the businesses that haven't already outsourced everything, but totally will if their taxes go up further? Are the business owners the same wealthy people who have been using loopholes and offshore tax havens to skip out on paying some portion of their (already lower than the US's) taxes? Some overlap of all three? Im not pro big business at all (im a incredibly staunch union guy, fair wages for all workers, etc) I just dont know how far you can go on taxing individuals to where you make it so the high earners just want to leave Canada and go to somewhere where they can save more of their money. If you are some kind of programmer ninja that is making killer iphone apps and getting paid 240 grand a year, do you want to take home 130 grand in Canada or 180 grand in USA? How about if you manage a snow plow company making 400 grand in revenue? Take home 300 of that in USA and invest/expand or stay in Canada and take home 210 grand. Same idea for the best doctors, engineers, etc etc These are theoretical figures, just trying to illustrate my thoughts.
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Oct 27, 2016 00:02
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Subjunctive posted:You don't think there are skilled workers making $100K? CanPol thread poster opinion in a nutshell.
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Oct 27, 2016 00:04
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Meanwhile, in Abbotsford... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1O0_aTCApDY
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Oct 27, 2016 00:10
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patonthebach posted:I just dont know how far you can go on taxing individuals to where you make it so the high earners just want to leave Canada and go to somewhere where they can save more of their money The problem is that nobody does, because it's a difficult thing to study. What little research does exist suggests that tax increases induce extremely limited migration (even in jurisdictions with very porous borders, ie. the American states), and that migration is concentrated to the top 1% of the investor class. And those are the same people who have little trouble investing abroad, and as we've seen, sheltering any profits overseas so as to be effectively immune from taxation anyway. So it's possible that there's no real loss at all. Post-war America had a tax rate of 91% on income over $200,000 ($2.4M USD2015), and they got on just fine. Rates for top earners remained at or above 70% until 1982.
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Oct 27, 2016 00:17
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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patonthebach posted:Im not pro big business at all (im a incredibly staunch union guy, fair wages for all workers, etc) I just dont know how far you can go on taxing individuals to where you make it so the high earners just want to leave Canada and go to somewhere where they can save more of their money. If you are some kind of programmer ninja that is making killer iphone apps and getting paid 240 grand a year, do you want to take home 130 grand in Canada or 180 grand in USA? How about if you manage a snow plow company making 400 grand in revenue? Take home 300 of that in USA and invest/expand or stay in Canada and take home 210 grand. fortunately we can look to other countries with far higher tax rates that somehow manage to keep snow plowed and computers hosed without their population running away to bosnia
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Oct 27, 2016 00:21
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