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Rey herself thinks she is only living on Jakku temporarily and will leave that while lovely planet behind one day because of her family. The basic fantasy of having an important ancestry, with "important" being calibrated extremely low. It takes place in a movie where a democratically elected official and guerrilla officer is repeatedly called royalty instead of her other, more meritocratic titles because her mother once inherited a title on a planet that exploded nearly forty years ago.
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Oct 27, 2016 20:56
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Zoran posted:Does Luke qualify as a prince? He is the legitimate son of a monarch He would only have been a prince so long as his mother was a queen. Since queens have term limits on Naboo, he was born twelve years too late to have held a royal title.
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Oct 27, 2016 20:58
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Zoran posted:Does Luke qualify as a prince? He is the legitimate son of a monarch He joined a monastic order so no
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Oct 27, 2016 21:01
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Bongo Bill posted:A character is a princess. The UK has a queen is the UK feudal?
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Oct 27, 2016 21:00
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Bongo Bill posted:Rey herself thinks she is only living on Jakku temporarily and will leave that while lovely planet behind one day because of her family. The basic fantasy of having an important ancestry, with "important" being calibrated extremely low. You are very much misreading Rey. She is waiting for her family because she's an orphan. She desperately craves family. She isn't waiting around in the hopes her family are important, just the fact that she isn't alone.
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Oct 27, 2016 21:03
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Phi230 posted:The UK has a queen The question is not whether the story takes place in a place with a feudal government, but whether the story employs motifs associated with a feudal outlook.
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Oct 27, 2016 21:02
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Phi230 posted:You are very much misreading Rey. The fantasy of the orphan protagonist discovering that they have a family, and the fantasy of the orphan protagonist discovering that they have a family that is special, are actually the same fantasy.
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Oct 27, 2016 21:04
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Bongo Bill posted:The fantasy of the orphan protagonist discovering that they have a family, and the fantasy of the orphan protagonist discovering that they have a family that is special, are actually the same fantasy. They're the same fantasy but the crux of the issue is whether or not Rey believes she is special because her family is special. We have no evidence to that outlook. I'm not saying that can't change. We still have 2 more movies, but as of right now, no foodalism
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Oct 27, 2016 21:07
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Was uncle Owen ever enfoeffed into his land through a ceremony involving earth and twigs?? No? Checkmate 
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Oct 27, 2016 21:09
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euphronius posted:Was uncle Owen ever enfoeffed into his land through a ceremony involving earth and twigs?? That's just an ancient means of transferring property though Lars' Homestead implies that he owns the empty land because he lives on it. Key word Homestead.
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Oct 27, 2016 21:17
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Other characters, however, are either treated positively because they recognize she's special, or deny it and get punished. You're talking about her inner life, and I'm tolkien about other people's reactions.
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Oct 27, 2016 21:17
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There's no doubt she's special but to say that the protagonist in a Star Wars movie being special entails feudalism is uhh, misguided. Maybe in the future when/if we know who Rey's parents are we can talk more about this with some absoluteness.
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Oct 27, 2016 21:20
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Phi230 posted:That's just an ancient means of transferring property though Well it's an ancient feudal means Hence the word enfoeffment. Spell check can't handle enfoeffment.
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Oct 27, 2016 21:21
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euphronius posted:Well it's an ancient feudal means Well yeah but it only applies under Feudal Law as a means of transferring property, as far as we know Tatooine doesn't even have any laws. Its so far from the Empire's control that at most they can retain a token occupying force (which may have only been there to search for 3P0 and R2 in the first place).
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Oct 27, 2016 21:24
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Phi230 posted:There's no doubt she's special but to say that the protagonist in a Star Wars movie being special entails feudalism is uhh, misguided. She's special because she's better than the other scavengers, inherently above them. Kyle calls her a scavenger and she sucks his mind dry of information. Finn asks her why she's lowering herself and becomes her best friend.
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Oct 27, 2016 21:24
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I don't see where you're getting the implication that Rey is inherently better than the other denizens of Jakku? Yeah, she is a scavenger. Apparently in the star wars world being a scavenger is a bad thing. But she destroys Kylo's prejudices by turning out to be a powerful force user. I don't see how that creates the feeling that she is "Better" than normal scavengers unless you somehow view Rey's curbstomping of Kylo some kind of elitist "putting them in their place" kind of thing
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Oct 27, 2016 21:37
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Phi230 posted:I don't see where you're getting the implication that Rey is inherently better than the other denizens of Jakku? The movie disagrees with you. Good characters say Rey isn't a scavenger, nor do they treat her as one. Bad characters do both. Rey doesn't interact with the other scavengers and is actually disgusted by them. How does Rey effortlessly defeat Kyle in that scene (and then go back to a more equal relationship later)? She was unable to do anything but struggle against him before that. But he calls her a scavenger. Either this gives her the willpower to suck the knowledge from his brain, or the Force is rebuking him for calling her a scavenger. Either way, the point is that he's wrong because she's not a scavenger, not because scavengers are worthwhile.
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Oct 27, 2016 21:58
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Basebf555 posted:Official materials really weren't cagey about it at all before the PT began. It was well known, at least amongst fans, that the Emperor's name was Palpatine. Here we have a Senator named Palpatine and he's played by the same actor. Its not made explicit in the movies because little kids back then and in the future can still watch and potentially be surprised by it, but there was never any attempt to surprise the fans with it in the same way that we have these mysterious visions of Rey's that are hinting at things and encouraging people to guess who her parents are. I'm really more pointing this out as an interesting bit of trivia about how major "twists" were handled before, but if we're analogizing to Rey, I wouldn't be surprised if official materials did everything but wave a sign that said "REY IS LUKE'S DAUGHTER" while still playing coy about it. If she is, that is.
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Oct 27, 2016 22:17
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She scavenges, but she's not a scavenger. She is only temporarily reduced to that ignominious lifestyle because her non-scavenger family stepped out for a few years for a perfectly valid reason. It must be something really important and special to keep them away for so long.
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Oct 27, 2016 22:20
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Her character arc is going to be the same as Lonestar's from Spaceballs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebJ-4hjNZRM
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Oct 27, 2016 22:39
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temple posted:The point about feudalism is like right at the beginning of the thread. Where the definition of feudalism became "whatever I say it is". Phi230 posted:I don't see how Star Wars has any elements of feudalism other than Jedi being called "Knights" which really has little to do with feudalism itself Star Wars borrows a lot from pulp fiction and romance, the latter of which originated in feudal societies. Putting aside all the socio-economic complexities of feudalism and whether it even existed in the first place, feudalism at its core concerns the role of aristocracy and the relationship between a ruler and a subject. Knights embody feudal values as military retainers who fight for their liege. Star Wars is feudal more by default than by design, but it's still feudal even if in a naive manner. The principal characters are either rulers or more commonly their followers. Princess Leia, the Jedi Knights, Lord Vader, the Emperor, Lando runs a city, Jabba has his own court. Even Luke is a knight whose heritage has been hidden from him. For a story that's maturely feudal, you can just go back to The Hidden Fortress. It very openly deals with the relationship between a ruler and her subjects. e: Phi230 posted:The UK has a queen As of the 9th of June 2000, no: quote:The Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc. (Scotland) Act 2000 BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Oct 28, 2016 |
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Oct 27, 2016 22:46
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2004, actually - that law was passed in 2000 but its full effects didn't come in until later. (Also nice to see Scots property law get mentioned in the Star Wars thread)
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Oct 28, 2016 00:36
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El Disco posted:https://youtu.be/YYcdrZfKU3E Hah I watched this last night, Jenny Nicholson is awesome.
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Oct 28, 2016 01:35
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turn left hillary!! noo posted:But they are great to talk about, with a lot of depth that I was only vaguely aware of before reading the threads here in CineD. "if you squint your eyes and tilt your head a bit you can almost draw a correlation between The Frog Prince and The Phantom Menace. Therefore the prequels are good" Don't let feeble minds dictate your opinion turn left hillary. Your initial feelings about the prequels were correct.
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Oct 28, 2016 02:20
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Yeah thinking about art is an invalid way to enjoy it.
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Oct 28, 2016 02:21
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we literally see a palace where a monarch has sent out an armored knight and captured one of our heroes. even if the words aren't used the themes are.
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Oct 28, 2016 02:40
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Elfgames posted:we literally see a palace where a monarch has sent out an armored knight and captured one of our heroes. even if the words aren't used the themes are. That has nothing to do with feudalism as a system though. Its just fantasy.
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Oct 28, 2016 02:48
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Yaws posted:"if you squint your eyes and tilt your head a bit you can almost draw a correlation between The Frog Prince and The Phantom Menace. Therefore the prequels are good" My initial feelings about them were that they are enjoyable Star Wars movies, just with some things I didn't like. Those things never amounted to more than a small percentage of the total run time of the movies; I've always been on board with the prequels. So thanks for the affirmation!
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Oct 28, 2016 02:49
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Phi230 posted:That has nothing to do with feudalism as a system though. Its just fantasy. The kind of things we think about as "fantasy" come from feudalistic Arthurian and Carolingian romances, and from heroic-society inspired works like the Kalevala, Beowulf, the Odyssey and Iliad, Lord of the Rings, William Morris's fantasies, etc. which have similar social relations to feudalism. Consider the Fisher King motif, where the King's physical condition is the land's. You could look at this as a divine-right-of-kings absolute monarchist ideological framework, but you could also look at it in the feudal context of having an idealized interdependent relationship between the lord of the manor, the peasantry, and the clergy where each provides the things the other two need to survive, and which necessarily falls into disorder when one or more of the three is out of alignment. That is, Arthur loving his half-sister is what guarantees his destruction because not only has he unwittingly committed the sin of incest, he has also committed adultery with the wife of one of his subjects, and his order that all the May Babies be gathered and set to sea on a leaking boat is a crime against all his subjects, and so his reign, no matter how wise and how cunning, is doomed because he has broken the bonds of the social order and so must die in recompense. Just as Hamlet, at the time when feudalism was beginning to die as a system, ensures that Hamlet dies because he killed a king. Note that the Fisher King himself embodies all three social classes in this system. He rules as a king, he labors as a fisher, and he is a holy man who administers the Mass of the Sangreal.
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Oct 28, 2016 03:05
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_9snOF7WHg
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Oct 28, 2016 04:28
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Phi230 posted:Where is there a tenant farm? Luke is a tenant on his Uncle's farm but none of them swear fealty to a local lord. John Seavey posted:Let's take a look at Owen Lars, shall we? Good old Uncle Owen, a nice old moisture farmer who raises his nephew and works the soil with nothing but his family and a few old droids. A kindly soul, one who doesn't want trouble and doesn't want to get involved in the wider affairs of the universe. The salt of the earth.
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Oct 28, 2016 05:29
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Phi230 posted:That has nothing to do with feudalism as a system though. Its just fantasy. Fantasy as a genre is often defined by feudal settings which stress the role of rulers and their followers.
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Oct 28, 2016 08:57
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Star Wars is more about capitalism vs democracy than feudalism, I think. Princes Leia is a princess but she's also a democratically elected senator, just like Padme was a democratically elected queen. Star Wars makes use of a lot of feudal imagery due to the stories it draws on for inspiration, and I agree there's a degree of relevance there, but you also have to consider how the series goes out of its way to soften the feudal implications of its hero monarchs. The films go as far as portraying Leia as being a bit snobbish and aloof towards more rough-and-tumble characters like Han Solo, and Padme as being a kind of aristocratic ideal towards which Anakin the former slave aspires, but both Leia and Padme are ultimately presented as heroic ideals of compassion and virtue. They're heroic precisely because they were born into such high stations in life and yet decided to use their status to bring compassion, charity, and justice to the poor and downtrodden. What's interesting is that Princess Leia starts off in ANH as a part of the same elitist, technological world of the Empire, and gradually throughout the trilogy--as her friendship with Luke and romance with the more free-spirited Han Solo intensifies--starts crossing over to become more a part of the more humble, natural world, as seen in the transition undergone by her wardrobe:      Whereas Padme undergoes the opposite transition from TPM to AOTC, going from a primarily watery blue/purple, harvest-yellow palette to a stark, clone trooper-white one, culminating in her marriage to Anakin with his militaristic, authoritarian tendencies:        
Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 12:30 on Oct 28, 2016 |
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Oct 28, 2016 12:25
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Cnut the Great posted:Whereas Padme undergoes the opposite transition from TPM to AOTC, going from a primarily watery blue/purple, harvest-yellow palette to a stark, clone trooper-white one, culminating in her marriage to Anakin with his militaristic, authoritarian tendencies: Isn't this kind of ignoring all those massive queen dresses she wears in TPM? I mean even granted that there's a bit of identity-switching stuff going on there, those early TPM getups are probably the most iconic look for the character. e: which were pretty starkly red/yellow, I think
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Oct 28, 2016 13:24
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All the democratically elected rulers are rich blue blood toffs.
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Oct 28, 2016 13:43
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Shanty posted:Isn't this kind of ignoring all those massive queen dresses she wears in TPM? I mean even granted that there's a bit of identity-switching stuff going on there, those early TPM getups are probably the most iconic look for the character. That's exactly why I ignored them. That's when she's in her alter-ego as the Queen, and she consequently wears a lot of potent, regal reds to signify that, but that's orthogonal to the dichotomy between the technological world and the natural world, which is the main conflict Star Wars focuses on: The Making of Star Wars posted:The characters’ costumes and design also play a part in the director’s larger look. “Leia is dressed in white and is part of the technological world—black, white, and gray,” Lucas says. “She has a spaceship, but she would’ve been a stranger if she’d gone to Tatooine, the natural world: tan, brown, and green. She would be like Artoo. I really liked the idea that when Luke, Ben, the Wookiee, Threepio, and Artoo are all together, everyone except Artoo blends into the real world, Tatooine; it works very well. But when you go to the Death Star, it works just the opposite. Artoo fits in with everything because everything is black and white, and he is primarily white. We made the stormtroopers white, too (also to mix things up, so not all the bad guys were dressed in dark colors). Even Threepio is out of place in the Death Star, more than Artoo. That was a creative decision to make Threepio part of the people, earth side, which was an esoteric idea, but I liked it." In her ornate, colorful guise as the Queen, she'd be just as out of place in the black, white, and grey technological world of the Empire as she would be as Padme. But at the same time, you're right, the hot, intimidating wardrobe of the Queen identity is still in opposition to the cool, soothing Padme identity. Of course when she's the Queen she also wears black mourning outfits at times, but that also has a different connotation than the sinister black outfits of characters like Vader and the Emperor. And Palpatine also wears a lot of red outfits just as Queen Amidala does, like her to signify his authority and potency as a leader, but in his case also to signify evil and aggression. Color associations aren't an exact science; you have to take into account the surrounding context sometimes as well. This is especially obvious in the case of the color white, which can signify both soulless sterility and spiritual purity, depending on the context. In the case of Princess Leia and Padme, I think the color white is supposed to have exactly such ambiguous, dual associations. In Empire with Leia, there's also the added association of emotional frigidity, where she blends in with the cold white surroundings of Hoth in the beginning and is gradually "melted" by Han Solo as the movie goes on, to the point where the warm reddish tone of her new outfit sticks out against the sterile white corridors of Cloud City. e: Going back to Padme, you can even look at the costume she wears at the end of the movie, where she's more or less synthesized her two identities into one. She still wears red, but it's a darker, more subdued tone than her iconic Queen outfit; in addition, she of course wears no heavy make-up, so that her face is more recognizable, more human, more naturally emotive. She projects an aura of confidence and power but also retains the more humble, soothing qualities she exudes when she's posing as the simple handmaiden Anakin falls in love with: 
Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Oct 28, 2016 |
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Oct 28, 2016 14:20
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Capitalism has more syllables than feudalism, idk why people rush to use feudalism in their deconstructions 
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Oct 28, 2016 14:48
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temple posted:Capitalism has more syllables than feudalism, idk why people rush to use feudalism in their deconstructions Well, the Empire itself kind of does get pretty feudalist. It isn't mentioned in the final cut of ANH, but the reason Luke doesn't like the Empire in A New Hope is because they were going around nationalizing peasant farms like his uncle's: A New Hope script posted:BIGGS It's clear from the movies themselves anyways that the Empire is about complete control of literally everything, enforced by an aristocratic system of military governors and an influential clergy, and that's a very feudalistic government set-up. The prequels are on a surface level in large part about a struggle between capitalism and democracy, which is a genuine and real societal concern, but by the time of the OT even the capitalists (i.e. Lando Calrissian) have joined forces with the Rebels to defeat the all-controlling Empire. Remember the Empire is the government that crushed the capitalistic Separatist Alliance and absorbed it into the giant faceless blob that is the Imperial system, for whom any kind of resistance or competition directed against it is anathema. At the end of the day the struggle between the Republic and the Separatists (that is, the democrats and the capitalists) was a false one which should have been resolved with cooperation and communication. The real enemy--the fear of being on the losing end of a compromise, the anger directed against an ideological Other, the institutionalized hate whose expression is war--lurked in equal parts within both. My thing is that I don't think it's correct to read Princess Leia, Queen Amidala, the Jedi Order, or the Republic as being representative of feudalism. Star Wars has more of an old-fashioned, naive ideology where freedom-loving democrats and libertarian entrepreneurs can ally themselves with virtuous fairy tale princesses to defeat an evil totalitarian emperor who wants to consume and control everything. It's really not a very revolutionary or Marxist story like some people want it to be. The solution in Star Wars isn't to tear everything down just because there are still injustices and because imperfections still exist in the system. According to Star Wars, revolution is only justified when even the potential for change through communication and cooperation within the system has been completely eliminated--and that condition is one that is satisfied by the Empire, but not the Republic. Even with all its flaws, the Republic is something that's worth preserving, because it's a system with a mechanism for giving people with different beliefs and ideologies a voice. In contrast, the Empire only gives the Emperor a voice. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 15:39 on Oct 28, 2016 |
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Oct 28, 2016 15:34
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That sounds more like fascism tbh. You seem to be hung up on farms being the crux of feudalism where no other evidence suggests it. Also it doesnt count because it was cut from the final draft.
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Oct 28, 2016 16:09
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temple posted:Capitalism has more syllables than feudalism, idk why people rush to use feudalism in their deconstructions I also think of you as a miserable little insect. 
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Oct 28, 2016 16:38
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