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Rush Limbo posted:The most convincing argument I've heard for the uniqueness of the Holocaust as a tragedy is that it was the first industrial, almost mechanised slaughter of humans. Wasn't even true.
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Oct 28, 2016 21:25
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Nothing changes as a result of proving or disproving the specialness or not of the holocaust or its specificity to Jews re: the morality, legality, or whatever of Israel or Palestine.
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Oct 28, 2016 23:06
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Disinterested posted:Nothing changes as a result of proving or disproving the specialness or not of the holocaust or its specificity to Jews re: the morality, legality, or whatever of Israel or Palestine. Not entirely true considering there's a holocaust industry (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_Industry).
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Oct 29, 2016 01:13
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Rated PG-34 posted:Not entirely true considering there's a holocaust industry (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_Industry). As much as a lot of authors like to dwell on the specialness of the holocaust (I think that claim has more validity than is being permitted here anyway) I don't think a lot truly rests on it.
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Oct 29, 2016 01:33
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the holocaust is considered special because it happened less than a century ago so lots of jewish people still have no extended family due to massacres and/or relatives who were actually in the concentration camps and remember the events personally, you deliberately dense fuckwits. the sacking of baghdad would have still been a pretty big deal seventy years later as well. nobody is claiming the holocaust is the only tragedy that's ever happened, but on a scale of human history it happened like five minutes ago so yes it's still pretty fresh
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Oct 29, 2016 01:44
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Avshalom posted:the holocaust is considered special because it happened less than a century ago so lots of jewish people still have no extended family due to massacres and/or relatives who were actually in the concentration camps and remember the events personally, you deliberately dense fuckwits. the sacking of baghdad would have still been a pretty big deal seventy years later as well. nobody is claiming the holocaust is the only tragedy that's ever happened, but on a scale of human history it happened like five minutes ago so yes it's still pretty fresh Yeah, but there are people who claim that the Holocaust (and more broadly violence against Jewish people in general) actually IS totally unique. edit: I mean the Holocaust is unique in the sense that literally every historical event is unique and has elements to it that other events don't share, but I don't think treating it as unique when compared with "all other genocides in general" is very accurate.
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Oct 29, 2016 02:17
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Isnt Holodomor just as unique?
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Oct 29, 2016 03:50
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i agree that the specific people who say "the holocaust is the only genocide that's ever happened and all other genocides in history are just a piece of piss by comparison" are wrong but i've also never met a person who says that in my life and think anti-semites choose to exaggerate that viewpoint because not only does it make us sound solipsistic and lacking in empathy but also like total idiots. there's a difference between saying that and saying "non-jewish victims of the holocaust shouldn't be mentioned at holocaust memorial events because it was an attack against jews and other victims were just incidental casualties", which is the closest i have heard an actual person, not an online fringe lunatic held up as convenient representative of all jews, say to what is being discussed itt at the moment. the overwhelming majority of jewish zionists think "yes the holocaust happened to other people too but they're someone else's problem and we have to look after ourselves, and it will happen again if we don't have our own nation to protect its citizens' human rights on the international stage, and the countries around us all hate us and we have to take extreme measures to defend ourselves or they'll annex israel back into themselves and we'll have to scatter all over the world again to survive". and what with trump and the rise of the far-right in europe and the atrocities coming out of syria, nobody is really doing much to convince us that won't happen if we drop our guard. the problem is the people in power in israel since its re-establishment have all either been massively personally traumatised by the holocaust or are the same greedy selfish toxic parasites that flock to the top in every society ever created across the world
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Oct 29, 2016 04:06
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the one and only difference is that we were given our own country in the aftermath of the war, because there was historically a proven jewish claim on that area of land and because it suited the christian fundamentalists's apocalyptic canon to have the nation re-established and also because there are a lot of people who genuinely don't want to see us exterminated and understand that yes, we really do need our own country to represent us and support from powerful nations so we can protect ourselves. the poles had their own country already, the romani people's geographical origin hasn't been traced more specifically than "somewhere around the north of india", i wish lgbtqi people could have their own country but obviously it wasn't an option in the 1940s, and so on. but if one of those groups had somehow been given a whole country and that country was also both inhabited by and surrounded by pre-existing populations that despised them, that country's narrative would be very similar
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Oct 29, 2016 04:12
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you hideous engorged little men
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Oct 29, 2016 04:14
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like gently caress, i'm critical of israel too but you have to have a basic understanding of how jewish people feel about their position in the world in the twenty-first century and the emotion that drives that nation to do the things it does. it's fear, just like the fear that's currently twisting america into a weird mockery of itself. most goys who talk about israel don't seem to understand where that fear comes from. they can say "yeah yeah, it was the holocaust" but they don't comprehend what it's like to have centuries and centuries of dread suddenly manifest and all your worst fears are realised and half your population is just gone overnight, and then the very next day a bunch of hipsters is saying "let it go already it's all in the past!" and demanding that you make yourself vulnerable because hey that's all over now and it'll never happen again when you can feel that same dread already building back up
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Oct 29, 2016 04:23
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Avshalom posted:the one and only difference is that we were given our own country in the aftermath of the war, because there was historically a proven jewish claim on that area of land and because it suited the christian fundamentalists's apocalyptic canon to have the nation re-established and also because there are a lot of people who genuinely don't want to see us exterminated and understand that yes, we really do need our own country to represent us and support from powerful nations so we can protect ourselves. the poles had their own country already, the romani people's geographical origin hasn't been traced more specifically than "somewhere around the north of india", i wish lgbtqi people could have their own country but obviously it wasn't an option in the 1940s, and so on. but if one of those groups had somehow been given a whole country and that country was also both inhabited by and surrounded by pre-existing populations that despised them, that country's narrative would be very similar So each country should only have 1 race or 1 sex type si they are represented correctly? What are you a Nazi
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Oct 29, 2016 04:24
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LeoMarr posted:So each country should only have 1 race or 1 sex type si they are represented correctly? What are you a Nazi
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Oct 29, 2016 04:24
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Avshalom posted:given Not really the word I'd use.
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Oct 29, 2016 04:48
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Although I agree that understanding the point of view of Israelis is vital to getting to grips with Israel Palestine, which makes hypotheses of 'uniqueness' relevant no matter what. The point remains it can't actually acceptably be used to excuse ethnic cleansing, murder, expropriation, gross violations of international law, openly racist laws, etc. etc, regardless of accepting the most strong 'unique event' hypothesis any more than Israeli crimes are a justification for blowing yourself up in a crowded place full of innocent people.
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Oct 29, 2016 04:56
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Avshalom posted:i agree that the specific people who say "the holocaust is the only genocide that's ever happened and all other genocides in history are just a piece of piss by comparison" are wrong but i've also never met a person who says that in my life and think anti-semites choose to exaggerate that viewpoint because not only does it make us sound solipsistic and lacking in empathy but also like total idiots. there's a difference between saying that and saying "non-jewish victims of the holocaust shouldn't be mentioned at holocaust memorial events because it was an attack against jews and other victims were just incidental casualties", which is the closest i have heard an actual person, not an online fringe lunatic held up as convenient representative of all jews, say to what is being discussed itt at the moment. This isn't just a thing fringe weirdos say, it's been an actual Problem at various Holocaust memorials and museums, where it sometimes took many years of pushing by Roma and other groups targeted by the Nazis in order to get representation. I've seen Roma writers get rather sore about it, actually. The Holocaust is enormously important to Jewish nationalists, though, because it's become a major pillar of the modern Jewish sense of global community. A socialist Reform Jew born in France to an interreligious marriage might not have much in common with an ultra-Orthodox theocratic Jew in NYC, who in turn doesn't have much in common with a national-religious settler in Amona...but all three of them know that Hitler would have seen them as the same and sentenced them to extermination, and that fosters a sense of connection between people who are otherwise wildly different. It came up in the in-depth polling of various Jewish sub-groups that I covered a few months back - there were major differences between various religious flavors, ideological groups, and national origins, but when asked about Jewish identity, every group ranked Holocaust remembrance as essential. They might be wildly different, but fifty years ago they all could have wound up in the same concentration camp, and that makes a big impression and fosters a powerful sense of kinship. Sadly, some people try to exploit that connection for their own objectives, and part of that means trying to expand and shape that connection by shifting the narrative on the Holocaust - one particularly blatant example being when Netanyahu claimed last year that Hitler didn't really want to exterminate the Jews but that the Palestinians talked him into it.
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Oct 29, 2016 05:58
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All great crimes and catastrophes are unique. It's a little tasteless to make it a competition though.
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Oct 29, 2016 14:05
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Disinterested posted:Not really the word I'd use. lol yeah, this totally removes any responsibility from zionists in the 30 years preceding the Holocaust
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Oct 29, 2016 15:43
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I think part of the uniqueness of the Holocaust comes from the fact that it was the last genocide before the world officially decided that genocide is a Bad Thing. Of course, the 1948 war happened around when we decided that acquiring territory through war was a Bad Thing, and the settlements in the West Bank started around when we decided that colonialism was a Bad Thing too.
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Oct 29, 2016 21:38
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Avshalom posted:the one and only difference is that we were given our own country in the aftermath of the war, because there was historically a proven jewish claim on that area of land "There was and still are a few jews here" doesn't sound anything like "gently caress everyone else the jews of europe deserve their own lebenstraum in a different continent, it's their racial destiny set out by god" Like if you want to declare the jewish homeland in a prexisting country on the basis of there historically being some living there why not Egypt? You literally believe that's where they are from. Or Germany actually, they kinda owe you one. Go occupy germany.
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Oct 29, 2016 23:51
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LeoMarr posted:Isnt Holodomor just as unique? The Holodomor wasn't even the only quasi-planned starvation enacted by the leader of a World War II power maniacally focused on feeding his country's troops at the expense of a local populace.
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Oct 30, 2016 00:37
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eSports Chaebol posted:The Holodomor wasn't even the only quasi-planned starvation enacted by the leader of a World War II power maniacally focused on feeding his country's troops at the expense of a local populace. Yeah but 6-20 million people died. WAR CRIME GIGOLO fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Oct 30, 2016 |
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Oct 30, 2016 00:45
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LeoMarr posted:Yeah but 6-20 million people died. This wouldn't even be an accurate range for the famine in the whole USSR in that period, though this thread will turn to poo poo if we start on the subject of Ukraine. Or are you back to the holocaust?
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Oct 30, 2016 01:01
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Avshalom posted:the one and only difference is that we were given our own country in the aftermath of the war, because there was historically a proven jewish claim on that area of land and because it suited the christian fundamentalists's apocalyptic canon to have the nation re-established and also because there are a lot of people who genuinely don't want to see us exterminated and understand that yes, we really do need our own country to represent us and support from powerful nations so we can protect ourselves. the poles had their own country already, the romani people's geographical origin hasn't been traced more specifically than "somewhere around the north of india", i wish lgbtqi people could have their own country but obviously it wasn't an option in the 1940s, and so on. but if one of those groups had somehow been given a whole country and that country was also both inhabited by and surrounded by pre-existing populations that despised them, that country's narrative would be very similar This is the sort of thing that sounds like it makes sense, but can't actually work in reality without doing a bunch of terrible things. You can't ensure the existence of a Polish, Jewish, etc country without also forcing out anyone else (or restricting their rights based on ethnicity/religion). In some fortunate circumstances, a country is "lucky" enough to be able to maintain an ethnic majority without having to commit acts of ethnic cleansing (due to the existing minorities never growing in power, if they existed in the first place). But, as we are seeing in Israel, if a minority ethnic group threatens to become dominant (or even a significant minority) politically you can't prevent that without doing things that a country should not be allowed to do. Basically, "X group should have their own national home" sounds like a great idea, but unfortunately it isn't something that can humanely be accomplished in the long term. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Oct 30, 2016 |
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Oct 30, 2016 03:33
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If some terrible people want to keep the holocaust train going forever more as their excuse to be horrible racists, warmongers and all the like, I do at least wish they'd also have the decency to not try and hijack it as a solely "Remember the jews" thing. Yes, they were the biggest victims of it, I know, but they weren't the only and they weren't the only significant victims of it either. Hell, the LGBT victims of the holocaust got to continue being brutalized and oppressed immediately after liberation in a bunch of cases, they didn't get given any big apology and promises of never again afterwards, but you can't even give a nod that way in specific most times without some far-right lunatic claiming that this is totally removing the jews from the story or whatever else they've ran with before. That's my big dumb spiel about how the holocaust gets used.
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Oct 30, 2016 10:10
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If only the Grand Mufti didn't tell Hitler to exterminate the jews we would have had far fewer discussions about just how unique the holocaust is. It always comes back to the Mufti.
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Oct 30, 2016 11:42
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I wonder how many people think only 6 million died in the Holocaust.
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Oct 30, 2016 14:07
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Friendly Factory fucked around with this message at 07:32 on Jun 4, 2018 |
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Nov 3, 2016 18:07
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Ahmed Mansarah, the boy made famous by getting yelled at, has been sentenced for 12 years in prison. The charges are several counts of attempted murder, this is a rather unprecedented sentence as he was 13 on the day he
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Nov 8, 2016 08:03
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Bennet declared that with Trump's election, the two-state solution is dead. Meanwhile, Bibi fires back at a vast left-wing conspiracy.
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Nov 9, 2016 16:34
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Xander77 posted:Bennet declared that with Trump's election, the two-state solution is dead. As if it would have been less dead if Clinton had been elected. As if it would have been less dead if Sanders, Jeb, Rubio, Cruz, Kasich or whoever else had been elected. As if it would have been less dead if the USA had decided to abandon elections and instead give Obama a lifelong presidential mandate. The two-state solution has been dead for decades and it's not because of the Americans; or at least not directly because of them.
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Nov 9, 2016 16:58
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OK so he just admitted what we all knew for years? Thanks Bennet.
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Nov 9, 2016 16:59
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I think Trump is actually the only candidate that had the closest thing to a "Palestine might be acceptable" platform... Shortly before silently dropping that and going full "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel", but still, it's going to be a while before we get even Obama levels of "Israel might be problematic".
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Nov 9, 2016 18:32
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Bernie actually condemned Protective Edge. 
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Nov 9, 2016 23:13
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my friends i am the last. the last and greatest prophet of the israelites. let's all have a moment's silence for the king david of our time, as well as the other righteous mensch also pictured in this photo and also all that 1970s facial hair, yikes
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Nov 11, 2016 07:49
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Avshalom posted:my friends Good photo.
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Nov 11, 2016 08:03
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Cat Mattress posted:As if it would have been less dead if Clinton had been elected. Bennett is against the two-state solution. What he's saying is that they don't have to pretend the two-state solution is on the table anymore. DrProsek posted:I think Trump is actually the only candidate that had the closest thing to a "Palestine might be acceptable" platform... Shortly before silently dropping that and going full "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel", but still, it's going to be a while before we get even Obama levels of "Israel might be problematic". Trump doesn't care. That's what it boils down to. He said whatever the hell came to mind or whatever the hell the last person who talked to him said, Kaiser Wilhelm-style, because he doesn't have any particular interest in the I/P situation. I expect him to be fairly pro-Israel, because his personality will probably mesh well with Netanyahu's and that's really all that matters. He probably won't do much, but he doesn't need to. All he needs to do is stay silent while Israel ramps the settlement construction way up, retroactively legalizes many existing settlements, and unofficially annexes large swathes of the West Bank. The Israeli right is very excited about it - they're convinced that America will look the other way under Trump and that this is their golden chance to create "facts on the ground" with utter impunity for the next few years. They're not worried about Trump's anti-Semitic rhetoric at all; the Jewish left seems to be more than a little shocked that they're the ones complaining about anti-Semitism while the Jewish right and Israel assure them that there's no anti-Semitism going on and that they're making a big deal out of nothing. It might just drive a wedge in the global Jewish community, actually; it doesn't seem to be lost on the left that the same right-wingers and Zionists who have been screaming for years about global anti-Semitism as a justification for their positions are now dismissing neo-Nazi endorsements and openly anti-Semitic harassment campaigns as "just isolated incidents, no big deal, don't worry about it". On the Palestinian side of the fence, the PA leadership has given Trump a generic congratulations on his victory but has otherwise been silent on his victory. Abbas is pretty old, I hope the shock didn't kill him or something. Hamas, meanwhile, has been directing some smart but unenthusiastic nmessaging toward Trump, mostly to the effect that they hope he'll treat Palestinians fairly and that he should recognize Israel as one of the "burdens" he talked about on the campaign trail and stop unconditionally backing them.
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Nov 11, 2016 17:01
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Main Paineframe posted:Bennett is against the two-state solution. What he's saying is that they don't have to pretend the two-state solution is on the table anymore. Sheldon Adelson funneled money into Trump's campaign so I'm just assuming Adelson had a reason for it.
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Nov 11, 2016 17:14
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RIP Leonard Cohen
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Nov 12, 2016 01:10
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Main Paineframe posted:They're not worried about Trump's anti-Semitic rhetoric at all; the Jewish left seems to be more than a little shocked that they're the ones complaining about anti-Semitism while the Jewish right and Israel assure them that there's no anti-Semitism going on and that they're making a big deal out of nothing. It might just drive a wedge in the global Jewish community, actually; it doesn't seem to be lost on the left that the same right-wingers and Zionists who have been screaming for years about global anti-Semitism as a justification for their positions are now dismissing neo-Nazi endorsements and openly anti-Semitic harassment campaigns as "just isolated incidents, no big deal, don't worry about it". This is demonstrably false. He's a gigantic joke but you are literally describing Bill Kristol and his ilk and no they loving didn't.
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Nov 12, 2016 06:00
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