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Detheros posted:
Weirdly, the "support the Netherlands" event doesn't work like a normal support for independence treaty in this version. My last Ottoman game I supported them thinking it would be a good chance for me to rumble with Spain, take southern Italy and all that. Cue them getting crushed by the Iberian Union and lingering on as a Frisian rump state for a hundred years. You get an alliance with them, but they won't call you to arms when they declare on Spain/Austria/whoever. Almost certainly bugged.
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Oct 30, 2016 14:24
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skasion posted:Weirdly, the "support the Netherlands" event doesn't work like a normal support for independence treaty in this version. My last Ottoman game I supported them thinking it would be a good chance for me to rumble with Spain, take southern Italy and all that. Cue them getting crushed by the Iberian Union and lingering on as a Frisian rump state for a hundred years. You get an alliance with them, but they won't call you to arms when they declare on Spain/Austria/whoever. Almost certainly bugged. It's been bugged like that for awhile now.
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Oct 30, 2016 14:30
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Too Poetic posted:It's been bugged like that for awhile now. I went to their rescue anyway and earned my most loyal and trustworthy anti-France ally 
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Oct 30, 2016 15:01
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Detheros posted:
French Wales. Are they compansating for Brittany?
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Oct 30, 2016 15:51
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that's Cornwall, man, Wales is the peninsula above it.QuarkJets posted:No one's saying that Quantity is a bad idea Tsyni posted:All the talk about quantity as a first idea makes me cringe a bit. I'm definitely not trying to argue that defensive is a bad pick either, it suits Ethiopia particularly well for lots of aforementioned reasons. I think it means you cede the initiative a lot though, and so have to fight grindy defensive wars (which is fine for "winning" against the Ottomans, but not for beating them- you'll never equal them in manpower as Ethiopia without quantity) rather than being able to take the initiative and go on sieges of your own through their heartland. Morale is absolutely decisive in the early game, but by the time you'll be taking the fight to the Ottomans around the late 16th/ early 17th centuries, artillery's gotten its teeth with techs 13 and 16, so there are other significant factors at play for how the battles go. I had a pretty decisive morale disadvantage against the Ottomans but I still won the battles, since I could always have local superiority and replenish my morale with new stacks and at this point in the game, morale isn't doing the killing anymore. I think a lot depends on your situation though. If the Ottomans had attacked me in the early 16th century I'd have been cursing myself for taking quantity, I admit, since it takes a long time to be able to reap the benefits of that, whereas you get the extra morale from defensive very quickly. But I was pretty certain I wasn't in imminent danger from them, and by the time war was actually looming, I could afford to field what quantity gave me.
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Oct 30, 2016 15:58
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Avoiding the janissary decadence crisis is really easy now, since you can reroll your heir and get a choice of three new ones. All you need is one with at least a 5 in any category. It will tank your prestige, but at least prestige has a good use now.
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Oct 30, 2016 15:58
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RabidWeasel posted:French Wales. Are they compansating for Brittany?  You tell me, also shout to the Livonian Border Gore and Mega Hungary.
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Oct 30, 2016 16:01
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What's a good way to get the Janissaries to fire for the Ottomans anyways? I always seem to be unable to get enough army tradition.
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Oct 30, 2016 16:02
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Get more army tradition? You only need 50 for it to fire, and if you're warring a lot early on it's easy to get while Mehmed II is still alive. Take defensive and/or quality ideas for the +1 AT/year and make sure you have enough forts for an additional +1 (1 fort for every 50 development).
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Oct 30, 2016 16:10
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Detheros posted:[timg] Mega Hungary. Seriously. Mega Hungary seems to happen all the time, and the Ottomans never advance upwards from the Balkans. Need to give them some missions for that.
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Oct 30, 2016 17:12
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Koramei posted:that's Cornwall, man, Wales is the peninsula above it. I know that, try reading the map  PittTheElder posted:Seriously. Mega Hungary seems to happen all the time, and the Ottomans never advance upwards from the Balkans. Need to give them some missions for that. Even the AI knows that taking wrong culture + religion provinces with increased coring cost is dumb. RabidWeasel fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Oct 30, 2016 |
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Oct 30, 2016 17:45
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Fister Roboto posted:No kidding. I just raqe-quit on my post-patch Ottoman game. I was the number one great power. I couldn't even declare rivals, I was so far ahead of everyone else. Literally every country on the planet would accede to my demands if I wanted. But then I got into a war with loving France, and they proceeded to push my poo poo in with their 7.5 morale to my 5. How do you really deal with this late game? Same story as the commonwealth and fighting france/Brandenburg. Even being a revolutionary superpower with off, def, ari, qua + military policies and aspects i look like a backwater bitch when fighting their armies. Makes me hate nations without good military ideas
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Oct 30, 2016 17:58
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RabidWeasel posted:Even the AI knows that taking wrong culture + religion provinces with increased coring cost is dumb. They removed the coring cost thing from Hungarian ideas, and the Ottomans can easily deal with off-religion provinces. Really it just irks me that the Ottomans are so strong these days, but also seem really passive. I'd really like to be able to see the AIs thought process as it were.
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Oct 30, 2016 18:21
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So did we ever reach a consensus for the first Ethiopia idea set? It's my first time playing this nation and I don't want to be strangled in the crib.
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Oct 30, 2016 18:24
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Exploration first, almost certainly. After that it's up to you but economic/religious/influence/expansion are all decent picks.PittTheElder posted:They removed the coring cost thing from Hungarian ideas, and the Ottomans can easily deal with off-religion provinces. Really it just irks me that the Ottomans are so strong these days, but also seem really passive. drat, they've not been passive at all in my experience. Maybe not bashing up against the Europeans as much as they ought to though. Honestly I think that'd do something to fix them, if they were permanently keen on wars that'd maybe be not so sensible, so they'd be a bit exhausted from expanding in every other direction at the same time. I do like how strong the Ottomans are now though.
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Oct 30, 2016 18:28
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I think the Annex Daimyo CB is broken. I thought it was supposed to allow full annexation regardless of total war score cost, but it doesn't, and every province counts as an unjustified demand.
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Oct 30, 2016 18:38
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Koramei posted:I think a lot depends on your situation though. If the Ottomans had attacked me in the early 16th century I'd have been cursing myself for taking quantity, I admit, since it takes a long time to be able to reap the benefits of that, whereas you get the extra morale from defensive very quickly. But I was pretty certain I wasn't in imminent danger from them, and by the time war was actually looming, I could afford to field what quantity gave me. Oh whoa you got lucky with the Ottomans leaving you alone, in my game the Mamluks attacked me in 1480, it was a long and bloody affair but I punched through to the Mediterranean coast and grabbed Venice's islands of Crete, Rhodes, and Cyprus. Ottomans attacked me in the early 1500s and I sure was glad I took Defensive ideas because they outnumbered me like 2.5 : 1. If I'd have had Quantity I'd probably have still pulled it off but it would have been a lot more painful. I don't think anyone's arguing Quantity is a bad choice, it all just depends on your situation. When are you going to mix it up with the Ottomans, what military ideas the Ottomans take, etc. e: like by 1600 I'd fought three wars against the Ottomans, one regular defensive and two coalition wars against me. Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Oct 30, 2016 |
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Oct 30, 2016 18:47
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The only reason I brought it up was for new players reading the thread. It seems like a large portion of new player consternation is about why their armies are getting wiped. There are lots of factors, but numbers don't always equal victory. As Prussia you can take some euro stacks outnumbered 2:1. Obviously quantity worked great for Koramei, because he got the achievement in the early 1600s.
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Oct 30, 2016 19:02
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Koramei posted:Exploration first, almost certainly. After that it's up to you but economic/religious/influence/expansion are all decent picks. Where do I go with exploration? Looks like I can take a few more pieces of land adjacent to the Central African wasteland but that's it. Unless there's something I'm not considering.
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Oct 30, 2016 19:21
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Dali Parton posted:Where do I go with exploration? Looks like I can take a few more pieces of land adjacent to the Central African wasteland but that's it. Unless there's something I'm not considering. You get a coast by conquering the Somali nations, then island hop to South Africa and southeast Asia. The Americas can be kinda useful for getting an extra merchant or two by making colonial nations if you've got the time - that's part of what makes the extra colonist from Expansion nice. vvv Yeah, this is another reason to head to America now. vvv Jazerus fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Oct 30, 2016 |
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Oct 30, 2016 19:26
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Jazerus posted:You get a coast by conquering the Somali nations, then island hop to South Africa and southeast Asia. Or head to The New World by 1500 to get a chance at the colonialism institution firing in your country.
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Oct 30, 2016 19:31
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By the way, if you make a North American colonial nation as Ethiopia you're contractually obligated to name it the United States of Amharia.
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Oct 30, 2016 19:35
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Tsyni posted:The only reason I brought it up was for new players reading the thread. It seems like a large portion of new player consternation is about why their armies are getting wiped. There are lots of factors, but numbers don't always equal victory. As Prussia you can take some euro stacks outnumbered 2:1. Oh yeah you're right about that for sure. Quantity often seems to be what newbies pick (I did too) since on the surface it looks so good, but it can be a bit of a trap. Pellisworth posted:Oh whoa you got lucky with the Ottomans leaving you alone, in my game the Mamluks attacked me in 1480, it was a long and bloody affair but I punched through to the Mediterranean coast and grabbed Venice's islands of Crete, Rhodes, and Cyprus. Ottomans attacked me in the early 1500s and I sure was glad I took Defensive ideas because they outnumbered me like 2.5 : 1. Not gonna deny I got lucky as hell, but you can also slow them down a lot. Counterespionage works wonders, for instance- I'm pretty sure that without a chunk of claims, the AI is much less likely to attack, and it takes so much longer for them to get those claims that way. Steering clear of provinces they want helps too- I put a buffer state between me and them so they'd deflect a bit of the anger, with only Antioch as a border exclave. And I expect you taking the Mediterranean islands probably put you in their cross hairs more than you'd have been without them too. Plus keeping up good relations, keeping down AE. They didn't even go hostile with me until towards the end of the campaign. e: honestly kind of puzzled about what I did for the Mamluks, I don't remember it now. I think I waited for the Ottomans to attack them, but somehow I managed to grab Antioch 15 years after that, so the Ottomans must have just not taken anything?  I doubt I was nearly as strong as the Mamluks, the first war happened for me in 1475. I took a string of provinces up to Alexandria in that.
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Oct 30, 2016 19:35
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Koramei posted:Oh yeah you're right about that for sure. Quantity often seems to be what newbies pick (I did too) since on the surface it looks so good, but it can be a bit of a trap. You can generally beat the Mamluks pretty handily using the military bonus you get from the event where Portugal sends you military advisors, which fires around that time.
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Oct 30, 2016 19:39
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oh right yeah, that was it. Ethiopia gets some insane events, incidentally.
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Oct 30, 2016 19:55
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Dali Parton posted:Where do I go with exploration? Looks like I can take a few more pieces of land adjacent to the Central African wasteland but that's it. Unless there's something I'm not considering. Build three light ships and recruit an Explorer, send him to explore the Indian Ocean. Leapfrog colonize the islands down to South Africa. You want to colonize all of the provinces in the Cape of Good Hope trade node to block off the Europeans. You'll want to send your Explorer to scout the coast of South America when you have range
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Oct 30, 2016 19:56
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Koramei posted:that's Cornwall, man, Wales is the peninsula above it. Again, I'll point out that the only way to make Defensive a grindy pick is if you're leaning heavily on the fort bonus and the attrition bonus, but those aren't really the reasons that you take Defensive. The Morale bonuses and the better Generals allow you to crush larger armies. By the time that you're tech 13-16 you should have plenty of force limit to run a full combat-width army, plus reinforcements, without having the benefit of Quantity. When you're Ethiopia, this is the purpose of eating everything to your south. Morale is definitely still doing the killing in your game, you're just topping off the morale bar with more men instead of having a larger morale bar Dali Parton posted:So did we ever reach a consensus for the first Ethiopia idea set? It's my first time playing this nation and I don't want to be strangled in the crib. Dali Parton posted:Where do I go with exploration? Looks like I can take a few more pieces of land adjacent to the Central African wasteland but that's it. Unless there's something I'm not considering. I went Exploration, Innovative, Defensive, in that order. Exploration is key, then you need one of the good Admin ideas, then you need one of the good Military ideas. So long as you're not taking Naval you should be fine With exploration, first you loop around to South Africa to prevent the Europeans from taking it, then you connect South Africa to Southeast Africa for the pretty borders (meanwhile you should be eating Kilwa), then you take some of the smaller islands near Madagascar (some of which have good development but this further blocks the europeans), then you colonize the east indies and redirect trade back to Zanzibar. You should be able to dominate the Zanzibar node militarily, so you either move your trade port to Zanzibar or have a Merchant collect there, since it's where a lot of other trade routes wind up
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Oct 30, 2016 20:22
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QuarkJets posted:With exploration, first you loop around to South Africa to prevent the Europeans from taking it, then you connect South Africa to Southeast Africa for the pretty borders (meanwhile you should be eating Kilwa), then you take some of the smaller islands near Madagascar (some of which have good development but this further blocks the europeans), then you colonize the east indies and redirect trade back to Zanzibar. You should be able to dominate the Zanzibar node militarily, so you either move your trade port to Zanzibar or have a Merchant collect there, since it's where a lot of other trade routes wind up I'd collect in Cape rather than Zanzibar, they're functionally identical and sending it one node farther increases its value.
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Oct 30, 2016 20:31
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Cape gets trade sucked away from Europeans in Ivory Coast, unless you manage to lock that down too. In an ideal world it's obviously better to collect there, but Zanzibar is pretty trivial to lock down 100%. QuarkJets posted:Again, I'll point out that the only way to make Defensive a grindy pick is if you're leaning heavily on the fort bonus and the attrition bonus, but those aren't really the reasons that you take Defensive. The Morale bonuses and the better Generals allow you to crush larger armies. By the time that you're tech 13-16 you should have plenty of force limit to run a full combat-width army, plus reinforcements, without having the benefit of Quantity. When you're Ethiopia, this is the purpose of eating everything to your south. If you're not leaning on your forts in that situation you might as well be taking quality or offensive (what I went with as idea 4) instead; 15% morale is strong but you're massively overstating things here, it's not worth picking the entire idea group for that alone. If morale were doing the killing I'd have found myself with massively lopsided casualties in the battles in the Ottomans' favor, which I wasn't. By the late 16th century, morale, while still very much relevant and not something to neglect, begins to take a backseat. For that matter you could be going with the quantity+religious policy for 10% more morale for nearly the same thing. Defensive is stellar as Ethiopia for playing on the defensive- you can afford a combat width worth of troops if you funnel the Ottomans on the corridor down in the Levant no problem. It's much much harder to afford that once you're pushing into several different forts on Anatolia simultaneously and can be flanked from every direction. Anyway, this is a hell of a lot of arguing over a fairly inconsequential choice. I don't wanna dissuade people from picking defensive on an Ethiopia run, it's definitely a strong pick, and quantity's just fine too. I got the achievement with it and I could do it again the same way, just like plenty of people have gotten the achievement while picking defensive. unrelatedly:  Atlas mountains. Wondering where else too at this rate, if it's the new normal for big mountain ranges. You could shape a lot of expansion in the game with well placed mountains. I'm not a topographical expert but it looks like some in eastern India may have been important? And I know mountains played a huge part in Korea's survival. also:  courthoses reduce state maintenance instead of unrest. I actually made use of them (and for the autonomy reduction too) a fair bit but this seems like a good change. I'm guessing the next tier up does 50%.
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Oct 30, 2016 21:05
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AI is juking me like crazy. Is there a "follow that army!" command?
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Oct 30, 2016 21:57
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Dali Parton posted:AI is juking me like crazy. Is there a "follow that army!" command? No. I made a couple posts earlier in the thread moaning about the low level of army automation and how I think it could be improved, but at present, while navies can be ordered to besiege regions, defend specific zones, or hunt down enemy fleets, armies can't be ordered to do any of these things. You can set them to automatically hunt down rebels at least.
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Oct 30, 2016 22:18
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Dali Parton posted:AI is juking me like crazy. Is there a "follow that army!" command? I never realised how badly I needed this until now 
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Oct 30, 2016 23:07
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Koramei posted:
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Oct 30, 2016 23:15
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Jazerus posted:I'd collect in Cape rather than Zanzibar, they're functionally identical and sending it one node farther increases its value. They aren't functionally identical unless you control Ivory Coast too. If you control Cape, and collect in Zanzibar, you don't have European nations pulling trade further up the stream.
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Oct 31, 2016 01:18
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Senor Dog posted:They aren't functionally identical unless you control Ivory Coast too. If you control Cape, and collect in Zanzibar, you don't have European nations pulling trade further up the stream. The reason you want to control Cape is to collect trade in Zanzibar. Ivory Coast is a terrible node to collect in since you have to deal with downstream trading bonuses from England, France, Spain, Portugal, and others pulling your money away. Ideally you want to collect in Zanzibar while owning all of the Cape provinces, that lets you suck up all the SE Asian trade without any of it being steered toward European powers. Don't invest in Ivory Coast as Ethiopia. Incredibly not worth it, get the Cape then SE Asia.
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Oct 31, 2016 05:29
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My King just married his heart's desire, a lowly commoner. Let's see what he sees in her, she must really be something spec-  Well I guess age is just a number Wafflecopper fucked around with this message at 13:18 on Oct 31, 2016 |
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Oct 31, 2016 13:13
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Wafflecopper posted:My King just married his heart's desire, a lowly commoner. Let's see what he sees in her, she must really be something spec- We won't have reached proper CK2 parity until she's also his aunt and a horse 
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Oct 31, 2016 13:31
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NihilCredo posted:We won't have reached proper CK2 parity until she's also his aunt and a horse I have never felt the need to 'like' a post on SA before now.
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Oct 31, 2016 13:35
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Koramei posted:I don't agree, 50%+ force limit is a hell of a lot to make up and if you're spending your money on buildings for that (those are expensive buildings, too), you're not spending it on other things that could give you more of a lead in the end. I don't think quantity is a good universal pick like I once did, but Ethiopia's in a position to take extremely good advantage of it- some of the worst land in the game, but access to oodles of trade income. Army size affects a hell of a lot of things in this game beyond the wars themselves, it makes it a lot easier to snag alliances with the European powers to help you beat up on the Ottomans, for instance, and also to dissuade them from attacking you until you're ready. Defensive also forces you to grind things out a lot more, whereas with quantity you can potentially have the numbers to take the initiative.
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Oct 31, 2016 15:07
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Pellisworth posted:The reason you want to control Cape is to collect trade in Zanzibar. Ivory Coast is a terrible node to collect in since you have to deal with downstream trading bonuses from England, France, Spain, Portugal, and others pulling your money away. That's... what I was saying.
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Oct 31, 2016 15:21
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