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Xealot posted:We'd just have to accept that, what, Dolores and Young William try to find the maze and fail? And Old William has spent 30 years trying to find it for real? That Dolores initially accompanies William, but now is in some surprise parallel solo journey in the future? It could be the case, but so what? It could also all be in surprise VR, or be a society a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. Or be a huge Stanford prison experiment and not a theme park. Or ponder: William kills Logan, it's the event that is referred to as the critical failure from 30 years ago, it is what 'turns' him into the Man in Black, and is what allows him to climb the corporate ladder. Dolores is using these memories to find the maze, which is a journey she's set out on more than once, but this time will complete because she's remembering all the loops. Or not and they're going to intersect with MiB when the union soldiers meet up with the train. Either way, there's not enough to say for sure which way it will go and the posters acting smug about one way or the other have their heads a little too much up their asses.
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Oct 31, 2016 14:03
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Xealot posted:I agree with the person who said, "so what if William is the MiB?" The time gap concept could be true, sure. The show would have to handwave some things (why the technology doesn't seem different, etc.), but what's the point? How does that reveal elevate the story? William falls in love with Dolores. He thinks that she can really think and has become "human.". Something bad (?she dies) happens while trying to find the maze which, maybe, allows someone like Dolores to escape? He spends the rest of his life trying to help her get back her agency and free her? Ford had an interesting comment about the MiB's motivations and agency. A lot of people seem to be happy with him just trying to get to the maze to complete some kind of game. His motivation would make more sense if it was a more powerful driving force (such as love) rather than just completionism. Again, not saying this is the show I would prefer or necessarily think is going to happen just that I haven't seen anything that definitively supports one theory over another which is why it is fun to speculate about. It's well-written and open to interpretation.
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Oct 31, 2016 14:04
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Invicta{HOG}, M.D. posted:William falls in love with Dolores. He thinks that she can really think and has become "human.". Something bad (?she dies) happens while trying to find the maze which, maybe, allows someone like Dolores to escape? He spends the rest of his life trying to help her get back her agency and free her? I just think the two timelines 1) doesn't hold up and 2) just wouldn't be a satisfying twist from a writing perspective. As people have pointed out, what exactly would it change and what would it make better? Why is Dolores finding the maze by herself (in what I consider to be flashbacks) a better narrative than us following her on the one time her journey actually leads to completion (and happens to involve William, who is perhaps one of the first few people to treat her as more than just a robot)? After the writers have developed a bunch of pathos/attachment to Dolores as a character, why would her failing and then MiB being the one to find or finish it (30 years later???? while she still clearly exists in the future as well) be at all satisfying? How do the two-timeliners explain: Dick Valentine posted:Within the first 10 minutes of the episode Logan comments on the beginning of the park, quote, "Supposedly this place was started by a partnership, right before the park opened one of the partners killed himself, sent the park into a free fall. I mean I don't know any of the details, I don't even know his name..." Then William "You must have a team of lawyers looking at this place..." Logan again "They came up empty, he's a complete mystery. Not even a picture." Like at the end of the day, the writers would need to do a lot of legwork to explain why all this stuff we've heard about the old park 30 years ago is near indistinguishable from the current park we're seeing. Because a bunch of people have no idea about this timelines theory and the twist would need to make sense looking back on it. And currently it doesn't.
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Oct 31, 2016 14:39
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Anybody notice the title of the episode? Contrapasso. Explicitly referring to Dante now. "Suffer the opposite"
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Oct 31, 2016 14:58
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Maybe, with the slight modification that Maeve actually is developing sentience completely outside of Ford's awareness. I could see Dolores's story being a red herring, and a product of Bernard/Ford/Arnold's various machinations, while Maeve's achievement of true sentience goes comparatively unnoticed. Then we get a year of Maeve having to orchestrate horrible things to uplift her friends before things go completely Jurassic Park. After reading this thread, I agree that Lawrence/El Lazo was just reset overnight. I had first thought, though, that Las Mudas/Pariah were far enough apart (Las Mudas seemed to be close to Sweetwater/the centre of the park) that there were two instances of Lawrence running around, and guests who tarried in Las Mudas weren't expected to reach Pariah and see him again. If there's only one Lawrence, how did his narrative take him into hiding with his family where MiB found him instead of running his gang like he seems to do at the start of his loop? Also, while this was another fantastic and totally engrossing episode, but there was not nearly enough Bernard in this one. Mameluke fucked around with this message at 15:09 on Oct 31, 2016 |
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Oct 31, 2016 15:01
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I think that the one-time/redo preference largely boils down to how cynical or hopeful you want the narrative. A hero one or an antihero one. If William is not MiB, then the two are in a way competitors to uncovering the maze - and, as mentioned, the white-hat William is getting as far as the black-hat MiB, if not further (although for William, it's Dolores who is searching). That's a story of two players who are competing, even if they do not know it. And hey, maybe there is even a chance that the white-hat wins. Because while the black-hat is told that the maze is not for him, the white-hat is told that he will be needed. But if William *is* MiB, then this means that the white-hat has grown cynical and nihilistic and pragmatic and world-weary, and that's presented as 'necessary character growth' in the vein of 'losing all illusions'. So the hero had become the antihero, and in a way, had to become the antihero. And from this point on, I think it's individual preference. A lot of recent TV seems to pretend that antihero narratives are more sophisticated, so maybe that's where the popularity of this theory comes from.
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Oct 31, 2016 15:03
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I think there isnt two time lines
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Oct 31, 2016 15:07
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So to me, it sounds like the Man in Black is dying. He's talking about urgency and how he's never going to leave the park again. So what does he want out of this? A cure? A way to be immortalized? To bring the whole thing down? It seems that he, Dolores, and Ford were present at the event, and the Man in Black had some hand in saving Ford. Be that physically or with money to keep the park going, don't know.
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Oct 31, 2016 15:12
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Lol this thread. "If things happen that I don't believe will happen then it's bad writing".
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Oct 31, 2016 15:14
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Pretty sure Dolores killed Arnold. Either as an assisted suicide thing, or as a test of consciousness.
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Oct 31, 2016 15:15
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Codependent Poster posted:So to me, it sounds like the Man in Black is dying. He's talking about urgency and how he's never going to leave the park again. So what does he want out of this? A cure? A way to be immortalized? To bring the whole thing down? Granted I'm just taking what he said at face value, but it sounds like it's more abstract for him. He's become bored with life and thinks this maze will give him a new feeling of purpose or emotion.
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Oct 31, 2016 15:19
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Paulocaust posted:Lol this thread. "If things happen that I don't believe will happen then it's bad writing". Honestly at this point I hope the two timelines thing is wrong solely so you're proven wrong about it. Holy poo poo dude we get it.
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Oct 31, 2016 15:20
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Mameluke posted:If there's only one Lawrence, how did his narrative take him into hiding with his family where MiB found him instead of running his gang like he seems to do at the start of his loop? Except that's not how MiB found him. He was in the process of being hanged and MiB took him to his family after taking him into his own custody.
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Oct 31, 2016 15:31
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Shooting Blanks posted:Assuming that MiB and William are relatively contemporary, was anyone else struck by how far William has gotten vs. MiB towards the same goal? MiB has ostensibly been pursuing this for years, whereas William is at his very first Westworld experience, yet he's already found Lawrence - a character purported to be hard to find (by Logan, in explaining he'd never even made it to Pariah) and that played a significant part in MiB's quest. The only difference is, MiB knows what his goal is, William seems to be getting by on gut feel. Not how far William has gotten vs MiB, how far Dolores has gotten. She's the one who keeps having visions of the maze and puzzles, and she's the one who pulled the 'high noon' to bail out William. Its Her quest, not William's. And after all, MiB was told the maze 'wasn't for you'. He's brute forcing it, but he's going against the grain. Ford is going to allow him to do so. MiB will become the ultimate villain, Dolores will defeat him and in doing so prove that she's fully independent and capable of overriding her programming. darnon posted:Except that's not how MiB found him. He was in the process of being hanged and MiB took him to his family after taking him into his own custody. Right, and in fact Lawrence even seems downright shocked to see that he's where his family is. That's a deep secret that most guests don't know about, that only the perfect storyline would probably cause him to reveal. But MiB has already done all that, so he could just go show up, steal Lawrence, and beeline straight to his family; which he otherwise wouldn't be near at all. The family are usually part of some unrelated story about some other town. That's just part of Westworld that lots of the characters actually have long-running relationships with each other, to make things more grounded and add secrets. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 15:39 on Oct 31, 2016 |
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Oct 31, 2016 15:36
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Still no evidence of two timelines.
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Oct 31, 2016 15:37
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Paulocaust posted:Lol this thread. "If things happen that I don't believe will happen then it's bad writing". Lol at you pushing this two timeline theory as fact. While at the same time being an annoying twat about it if people say it's dumb.
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Oct 31, 2016 15:39
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FogHelmut posted:Still no evidence of two timelines. But my feelings are evidence
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Oct 31, 2016 15:39
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Paulocaust posted:Lol this thread. "If things happen that I don't believe will happen then it's bad writing". Personally I love when people do stuff like this because it's really a no-win scenario. If Paulocast is wrong, we all continue to make fun of him. He probably also disavows the show and complains about lovely writing. If he's right, he gets to gloat and act holier-than-thou for a while, but nobody gives a poo poo because he's being such an rear end in a top hat about it right now. It's not like trying to predict a real world outcome because who knows in cases like those. But trying to predict the outcome of a TV show that's already been made is great because he'll either be 100% right or 100% wrong. Why would you choose to die on a hill like that?
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Oct 31, 2016 15:45
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Two more thoughts. One thing I am wondering about is how they are going to make the maze... satisfying to us viewers, so to speak, though. I mean, the way they are hyping it: Arnold's last creation, the goal of the MiB, the ultimate truth and threshold to enlightenment sort of thing. After all this, it will be hard for it not to be disappointing, whatever is in there. And two. This comparison has been made before, including by me, but a lot of the Arnold backstory reminds me of Heart of Darkness / Apocalypse Now. (And Wyatt. He was a Colonel in the Army who has gone mad...) So, I wonder if maybe in the end Arnold wanted to destroy the park on the "exterminate the brutes" basis.
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Oct 31, 2016 15:45
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Pretty sure Dolores killed Arnold. Either as an assisted suicide thing, or as a test of consciousness. So she's Sonny in the I, Robot movie?
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Oct 31, 2016 15:49
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Arnold: A man chooses, a slave obeys! Dolores: *shoots him dead*
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Oct 31, 2016 15:50
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timp posted:Personally I love when people do stuff like this because it's really a no-win scenario. If Paulocast is wrong, we all continue to make fun of him. He probably also disavows the show and complains about lovely writing. If he's right, he gets to gloat and act holier-than-thou for a while, but nobody gives a poo poo because he's being such an rear end in a top hat about it right now. Because it's extremely obvious and the only way you couldn't tell right now is if you were a moron that could only take things at face value or you're doing mental gymnastics to avoid admitting you're wrong.
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Oct 31, 2016 15:50
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Aeden has this to say about war:quote:War is a complicated and harrowing game encompassing complex narratives that pull from the Texas annexation, Civil War, Reconstruction, the Mexican Revolution, and other historical skirmishes. The War game is the hardest in the park. e: And this about Nitro: quote:Slim Miller is a criminal with a price on his head. If you happen to find him, you can choose to turn him in for a small bounty or have him lead you to hidden narratives for more advanced visitors. Careful who you cross, however; some of Slim's allies are the most dangerous criminals in the park.
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Oct 31, 2016 15:51
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Xealot posted:William isn't doing anything at all, it seems. He's just along for the ride; Dolores is the one making choices. Dolores actually does need a guest to be her guardian since every guest she meets want to rape and/or murder her other than William and the hosts aren't so kind, either.
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Oct 31, 2016 15:52
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Paulocaust posted:Because it's extremely obvious and the only way you couldn't tell right now is if you were a moron that could only take things at face value or you're doing mental gymnastics to avoid admitting you're wrong. Explain your super obvious two timeline issue in full detail.
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Oct 31, 2016 15:52
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Vintersorg posted:Explain your super obvious two timeline issue in full detail. Not only have I before, but I do not dance for your enjoyment.
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Oct 31, 2016 15:53
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Confederados:quote:Confederate soldiers who refused to surrender after the war, these rowdy men provide the ultimate black hat experience. Get in with them and you’ll see why the game of war is renowned as the most epic in the park. Can't think of anything else to ask him at the moment. I'm impressed they got him to respond to "Nitro," though.
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Oct 31, 2016 15:54
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Paulocaust posted:Not only have I before, but I do not dance for your enjoyment. Hahahahahhaaha
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Oct 31, 2016 15:57
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Paulocaust posted:Not only have I before, but I do not dance for your enjoyment. Oh okay let me just go through your post history Post 1 Paulocaust posted:I try to keep up with this thread but it's impossible with constant shitposts like the morality of bisexuality, but one thing I've seen posted a bunch of places enequivocally is that Delores is the first host ever made. The show never said this, only that she's the oldest host in the park, and we know the original hosts like Old Bill were all decommissioned. She still may be the first ever made but it's definitely not stated ever and despite being updated "so many times she's practically brand new", she would have to have a lot of work done to not be as physically and mentally stiff and mechanical as Old Bill. Post 2 Paulocaust posted:This is why this thread sucks. This guys theory is bad but shut up. He thought two people looked alike and they don't. Move on. Talk about the loving show. Here's an example of how to contribute: Actually nevermind you sound like an rear end in a top hat, and even if you're right I can't stand reading your posts anymore
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Oct 31, 2016 15:59
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meristem posted:Two more thoughts. One thing I am wondering about is how they are going to make the maze... satisfying to us viewers, so to speak, though. I mean, the way they are hyping it: Arnold's last creation, the goal of the MiB, the ultimate truth and threshold to enlightenment sort of thing. After all this, it will be hard for it not to be disappointing, whatever is in there. We're already seeing the maze, friend. The things that MiB and Dolores are doing right now ARE the maze. Its not a literal maze. Its a journey of self-discovery.
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Oct 31, 2016 15:59
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Paulocaust posted:you're doing mental gymnastics to avoid admitting you're wrong. The irony is delicious.
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Oct 31, 2016 16:00
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Paulocaust posted:Because it's extremely obvious and the only way you couldn't tell right now is if you were a moron that could only take things at face value or you're doing mental gymnastics to avoid admitting you're wrong. Please stop posting forever. timp posted:Actually nevermind you sound like an rear end in a top hat, and even if you're right I can't stand reading your posts anymore Just ignore him.
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Oct 31, 2016 16:02
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Good god, someone is being rude...on the internet!!!!!
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Oct 31, 2016 16:03
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Paulocaust posted:Good god, someone is being rude...on the internet!!!!! Being on the internet doesn't excuse you from being a decent person.
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Oct 31, 2016 16:06
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:I can't believe anyone still thinks there's two timelines. Jesus christ. gently caress, I did. Until last night when I realized Hector and Logan were played by two different actors and not just by Xerxes. Now the show is slightly less interesting.
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Oct 31, 2016 16:09
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Zaphod42 posted:We're already seeing the maze, friend. The things that MiB and Dolores are doing right now ARE the maze.
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Oct 31, 2016 16:10
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i think westworld is about bisexuality. think about it.
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Oct 31, 2016 16:11
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meristem posted:Ok... But that's semantics. The endpoint of the quest, then. The pinnacle of the self-discovery. The moment the veil is rent and the host (or player) steps across the threshold of the invisible. That. How are they going to visualise that? With a "level up!" graphic and a ting? It's probably going to be an intentional let-down, if Ford's conversation with MiB was anything to go by.
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Oct 31, 2016 16:12
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:It's probably going to be an intentional let-down, if Ford's conversation with MiB was anything to go by. It's a JJ Abrahms black box. That should have been your first clue.
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Oct 31, 2016 16:14
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meristem posted:Ok... But that's semantics. The endpoint of the quest, then. The pinnacle of the self-discovery. The moment the veil is rent and the host (or player) steps across the threshold of the invisible. That. How are they going to visualise that? With a "level up!" graphic and a ting? With Dolores shooting Ford and/or MiB and leaving Westworld, or something like that. Pretty sure that's the endgame for this show; Dolores leaving the park. Seems pretty penultimate to me. Level up graphic? Really? 
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Oct 31, 2016 16:18
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