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Sturmtiger IV posted:I wanted to chime in that this museum is a jewel, such a beautiful facility and location IMO. Also that exhibit is so tremendously huge, and if you like pacific northwest First Nations information, the UBC Museum of Anthropology in Vancouver is a must see also. I'll have to check that out! My girlfriend and I have been meaning to head up to Vancouver since it's been forever since we've been there.
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Oct 31, 2016 22:56
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A Winner is Jew posted:The opinions of the people that don't live in the US don't matter, hth. Fojar38 posted:Said the white westerner in response to rebels killing a dictator that had been torturing the population of his country for half a century Every death is a tragedy. Agrajag posted:You don't even remember how old you were and that is with the benefit of simple maths. Dexo posted:*kills innocent brown people in foreign countries, going after one or two targets* It's about long-term trends. Things only have meaning in context.
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Oct 31, 2016 22:57
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mcmagic posted:I think we're fine to say that if you went along with war crimes and supported the worst probably foreign policy decision in the history of the country that you should AT LEAST have to answer for that vote for the rest of your career. That is a low bar.  The thing is she has answered for it and when pressed continues to answer for it so it's not like what you think should happen for that gently caress-up isn't literally happening right now.
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Oct 31, 2016 22:57
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mcmagic posted:I think we're fine to say that if you went along with war crimes and supported the worst probably foreign policy decision in the history of the country that you should AT LEAST have to answer for that vote for the rest of your career. That is a low bar. Dude what. Are you aware of literally any US history before 2001. Do you know what we did to Hawaii.
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Oct 31, 2016 22:57
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mcmagic posted:I think we're fine to say that if you went along with war crimes and supported the worst probably foreign policy decision in the history of the country that you should AT LEAST have to answer for that vote for the rest of your career. That is a low bar. that's not what you're doing though, you're trying to spin this elaborate bullshit fantasy scenario where hillary will invade canada because she voted to authorize military force against iraq. it's the exact same dumb chicken little paranoia about how hillary really secretly hates the gays because she didn't always support gay marriage also vietnam was a worse foreign policy decision than iraq 2
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Oct 31, 2016 22:57
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Night10194 posted:In the likely event good triumphs, of course. e: Oh yeah, and Hawaii, and that's just leaving aside all the bullshit we pulled on Native nations, since even I the history major just haven't heard of most of them.
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Oct 31, 2016 22:57
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Cingulate posted:I'm being simultaneously accused of only caring about people who live in the US, and about caring about Gaddafi's, a murderous dictator's, life. By two different people whose reasons for opposing your argument are different.
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Oct 31, 2016 22:57
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Nessus posted:The Mexican War and Spanish-American War were equally bullshit, we just actually managed to win those ones and get something out of it. What, I was talking about needing a /pol/ tears thread when we win but knocking on wood.
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Oct 31, 2016 22:58
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Dude what. Are you aware of literally any US history before 2001. Do you know what we did to Hawaii. gently caress that, Philippines was way worse.
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Oct 31, 2016 22:58
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I opposed the Iraq War, but I was also a kid in high school who reflexively opposed anything from Bush because Bush v. Gore made me very spiteful, so it's not as though it was an informed position based on sound reasoning and evidence. I think a lot of people like me who were incidentally right about the Iraq War don't really remember what 2003 was like and think that in hindsight the decision was really obvious and clear-cut.
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Oct 31, 2016 22:59
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mcmagic posted:How about John Kerry? FuzzySlippers posted:For the people decrying Hillary for being so violent and militaristic, who is the US president you wished she acted more like? I also remember celebrating when he won the race in 2004. botany posted:Why is that the question? I'd like her to be her own President. The whole point of criticizing Clinton is that I'd very much like her to be the person I can point towards in the coming decades and say "the next president should be more like her". I think I can do that with respect to domestic policy, I'd like to be able to do it as well with respect to foreign policy. I think progressives tend to be overtly simplistic when discussing foreign affairs and tend to judge leaders against a theoretical peaceful moral interventionist that has never existed. Unless you are an isolationist (which I can understand and its straight forward) it's worth pondering what exactly we want from a president in a realistic light. Tough diplomacy and militarism can sometimes lead to greater world peace and stability. Its a hard call to make and the tendency to demonize all military decisions and actions by the left is too easy. There's no proof that Hillary is a brain dead hard liner like Reagan or JFK. There is a tremendous amount of diplomatic squabbling we can do with Russia that is not throwing down the nuclear gauntlet or engaging in proxy wars. Most likely a harder stance in Syria is not to drive out the ruskies or defeat Assad but nudge them towards accepting something like partitioning. I was against intervention in Iraq at the time but there was certainly a reasonable case for it as well. The hindsight is that it was hard to know that Cheney and Rumsfield would gently caress it up so spectacularly.
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Oct 31, 2016 22:59
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Apparently this guy introduced Trump at a rally: Book: Bob Knight Used to Squeeze Players’ Testicles, Punch Players in the Head, Etc.
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Oct 31, 2016 22:59
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boner confessor posted:that's not what you're doing though, you're trying to spin this elaborate bullshit fantasy scenario where hillary will invade canada because she voted to authorize military force against iraq. it's the exact same dumb chicken little paranoia about how hillary really secretly hates the gays because she didn't always support gay marriage We should invade Canada for the Electoral Votes.
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Oct 31, 2016 22:59
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Truman. Also MIGF for mod. It is best when the forum is at odds with the mods.
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Oct 31, 2016 22:59
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Again, this is getting missed: the Iraq war vote was intended to give the president the leverage to tell Iraq to make the inspections work or else. It was not a 100% for sure vote to invade Iraq. If they knew that Bush was actually going to use the authorization to attack Iraq, a lot of Senators who voted yes may well have decided to vote no.
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Oct 31, 2016 23:00
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Xae posted:Yeah and it was that threat that caused the intervention. mcmagic posted:I think we're fine to say that if you went along with war crimes and supported the worst probably foreign policy decision in the history of the country that you should AT LEAST have to answer for that vote for the rest of your career. That is a low bar.
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Oct 31, 2016 23:00
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Night10194 posted:What, I was talking about needing a /pol/ tears thread when we win but knocking on wood. The Spanish-American War was mostly us putting the boot in on a decrepit power and occupying several of their large colonial holdings. We were completely miserable to the Phillipines (though I gather we did clean up our act afterwards, that was like "forty years on") and to Cuba, even if we didn't make them states or permanent territories.
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Oct 31, 2016 23:00
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Dude what. Are you aware of literally any US history before 2001. Do you know what we did to Hawaii. A Winner is Jew posted:gently caress that, Philippines was way worse. Are we talking morally bad or practically bad
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Oct 31, 2016 23:00
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RZA Encryption posted:Apparently this guy introduced Trump at a rally: Bobby Knight got fired from IU for assaulting players and all his die-hard fans started rooting for his new team out of spite. To this day there are weird like texas state or wherever the gently caress he ended up signs and flags all over Indiana.
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Oct 31, 2016 23:01
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A Winner is Jew posted:gently caress that, Philippines was way worse. The worst "foreign" policy America ever committed happened on our own soil with the Trail of Tears.
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Oct 31, 2016 23:01
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My only real hope for hillary and her foreign policy is that she realize that a no-fly zone is a dumbfuck idea. She'll continue bombing brown people, that's for sure.
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Oct 31, 2016 23:01
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Fojar38 posted:Are we talking morally bad or practically bad To be clear this is not a defense of our previous evil wars, this is "our latest evil wars are ALSO incompetent AS WELL AS evil."
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Oct 31, 2016 23:01
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When you're the leader of a country and you are sponsoring the violent and deadly oppression of your own people and they kill you, that is one of the clearest cut cases of self defense I can think of. I'm literally a loving Socialist Party member, but I'm sick and tired of modern leftists claiming aiding people in stopping genocide by their own government is imperialism. Get hosed, stopping genocide/politicide/etc is the one type of intervention that leftists should have no qualms supporting, and didn't have any trouble supporting during the Spanish Civil War and the like. But suddenly when it's not white people getting killed, then intervening is bad. Edit: To clarify I'm talking Libya and Syria, not Iraq 2. I think that Saddam was allowed to keep power at all after Al Anfal is the root of a lot of problems in the Middle East. A Fancy 400 lbs fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Oct 31, 2016 |
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Oct 31, 2016 23:02
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Cingulate posted:I'm being simultaneously accused of only caring about people who live in the US, and about caring about Gaddafi's, a murderous dictator's, life. By two different people dip poo poo. And no you don't care about people that live in the US because you're loving clueless about their opinions which is why you wholesale dismissed them when they didn't conform to your information bias.
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Oct 31, 2016 23:02
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Nessus posted:They were all morally bad. But we at least got something out of them, as a nation. We didn't even get anything out of Iraq other than a bunch of bills and mutilated veterans. What the gently caress did we get out of Vietnam, exactly?
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Oct 31, 2016 23:02
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Jesus christ. Yes, Hillary shouldn't have voted for the war. Yes that's a dark mark on her record(and the reason she didn't win the Dem nomination in 08 TBH) Hillary is not responsible for how shittily it was handled by the Bush administration though. Like While people thought it was a bad idea no one in their right mind expected the lows that the Bush administration would sink to when given that vote.
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Oct 31, 2016 23:02
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Nessus posted:The Mexican War was pretty much "Hey, I think we can take Mexico." And then we did! When people talk about the Mexicans wanting "reconquista" and to take back the southwest American states, what is not mentioned is that they have a pretty good case that that territory was seized by force of arms and nothing else. Actually the reconquista is really dumb.
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Oct 31, 2016 23:02
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U-DO Burger posted:I opposed the Iraq War, but I was also a kid in high school who reflexively opposed anything from Bush because Bush v. Gore made me very spiteful, so it's not as though it was an informed position based on sound reasoning and evidence. I think a lot of people like me who were incidentally right about the Iraq War don't really remember what 2003 was like and think that in hindsight the decision was really obvious and clear-cut. FuzzySlippers posted:I think progressives tend to be overtly simplistic when discussing foreign affairs and tend to judge leaders against a theoretical peaceful moral interventionist that has never existed. Unless you are an isolationist (which I can understand and its straight forward) it's worth pondering what exactly we want from a president in a realistic light. Tough diplomacy and militarism can sometimes lead to greater world peace and stability. Its a hard call to make and the tendency to demonize all military decisions and actions by the left is too easy.
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Oct 31, 2016 23:03
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seiferguy posted:The worst "foreign" policy America ever committed happened on our own soil with the Trail of Tears. This loser hasn't heard about Trail of Tears Part 2
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Oct 31, 2016 23:03
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A Winner is Jew posted:Technically it's a political appointment so yes, but it's for a 10 year term and there is suppose to be nothing political about his hiring or firing. Let's be honest, they probably done far worse as far back as Freaky Deaky J. Edgar Hoover, this one's just dumb enough to not only broadcast it to the media but overtly break the law possibly doing it.
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Oct 31, 2016 23:03
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Nessus posted:They were all morally bad. But we at least got something out of them, as a nation. We didn't even get anything out of Iraq other than a bunch of bills and mutilated veterans. That's why I put forward War of 1812 as actually the worst war practically. Iraq was expensive in both blood, treasure, and reputation, but at least Washington DC was never occupied
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Oct 31, 2016 23:04
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Nessus posted:The Mexican War and Spanish-American War were equally bullshit, we just actually managed to win those ones and get something out of it. World War I wasn't exactly a clear moral stand, either.
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Oct 31, 2016 23:04
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U-DO Burger posted:I opposed the Iraq War, but I was also a kid in high school who reflexively opposed anything from Bush because Bush v. Gore made me very spiteful, so it's not as though it was an informed position based on sound reasoning and evidence. I think a lot of people like me who were incidentally right about the Iraq War don't really remember what 2003 was like and think that in hindsight the decision was really obvious and clear-cut. I too opposed the Iraq War and was a kid in High School, however my reasoning was that we shouldn't drag the entire nation into desert storm 2 for what could be accomplished with diplomacy and extremely harsh sanctions. That and there was no "smoking gun" linking iraq to the hijackers that existed at the time (or ever).
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Oct 31, 2016 23:04
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lozzle posted:What the gently caress did we get out of Vietnam, exactly?
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Oct 31, 2016 23:04
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Northjayhawk posted:Again, this is getting missed: the Iraq war vote was intended to give the president the leverage to tell Iraq to make the inspections work or else. It was not a 100% for sure vote to invade Iraq. If they knew that Bush was actually going to use the authorization to attack Iraq, a lot of Senators who voted yes may well have decided to vote no. Do you have something I can read on that? My understanding of the situation was that the vote was very much about the invasion, but if I'm misremembering I'd like to know.
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Oct 31, 2016 23:04
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Monaghan posted:My only real hope for hillary and her foreign policy is that she realize that a no-fly zone is a dumbfuck idea. You know the no-fly zone is to help brown people from being bombed right?
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Oct 31, 2016 23:04
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lozzle posted:What the gently caress did we get out of Vietnam, exactly? a bunch of good music and art inspired by protesting the war that's about it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRE3kjL3Yjg
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Oct 31, 2016 23:04
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A Winner is Jew posted:And no you don't care about people that live in the US Some of my best friends are Americans. A Winner is Jew posted:which is why you wholesale dismissed them when they didn't conform to your information bias.
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Oct 31, 2016 23:04
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Cingulate posted:I don't think reflexive pacifism is bad. Sometimes very simple motives are completely sufficient. Pacifism is the single most privileged ideology possible. OddObserver posted:World War I wasn't exactly a clear moral stand, either. On the other hand, gently caress Imperial Germany
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Oct 31, 2016 23:04
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Bobby "'I think that if rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy it" Knight is stumping for Trump what a surprise. 
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Oct 31, 2016 23:04
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