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red19fire posted:By "just recently due to politics' what you mean is that Cliven Bundy refused to pay his grazing fees to the government, which are way below commercial feed rates, for 20+ years. After decades of nonpayment and numerous warnings, the government banned him from grazing public land and held some of his cattle in lien until the million dollars or more of back fees are paid in full. this isn't all of it. to quote myself from earlier in the thread: No, his belief that he didn't need to pay money to graze his cattle came later. What came first is the BLM restricted grazing in order to protect the endangered desert tortoise. Among other things, they simply cut the amount of cattle you were allowed to graze below the point that cattle ranching in the area was viable. There were about 50 cattle ranchers in the area in 1993 but by 2014 Bundy was the only one left. Bundy was facing an existential threat to his way of life and came upon the idea that the federal government wasn't allowed to own land at all and thus he could graze as many cattle as he wanted AND he didn't have to pay to graze them either.
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Nov 1, 2016 08:42
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Gobbeldygook posted:this isn't all of it. to quote myself from earlier in the thread: Well gosh, if 50 of his neighbours have stopped ranching, why doesn't he just buy up their land? You can run as many cattle as you want on your own privately held land.
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Nov 1, 2016 08:57
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Facebook Aunt posted:Well gosh, if 50 of his neighbours have stopped ranching, why doesn't he just buy up their land? You can run as many cattle as you want on your own privately held land.
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Nov 1, 2016 09:09
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hm i wonder if family-run cattle ranches have been affected by commodity prices or industry consolidation over that timescale: http://billingsgazette.com/business/cattlemen-cite-reasons-for-family-ranch-decline/article_40a57cbf-3948-5cd1-92ed-07a8d63607bd.html http://santamariatimes.com/news/loc...8edba94739.html https://stateimpact.npr.org/texas/2013/06/06/why-texas-cattle-ranching-continues-to-decline/ http://nation.time.com/2013/01/28/last-round-ups-the-decline-and-fall-of-the-texas-family-rancher/ http://articles.latimes.com/1990-03-19/local/me-397_1_cattle-industry/2 http://scholarship.law.umt.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1217&context=plrlr http://www.denverpost.com/2012/03/15/saying-goodbye-to-the-ranch/#ixzz1pa4TGI00 It's not about the mean old government and a tortoise. That may well have been a final stressor that pushed people past the point of viability, but family ranches have been declining for quite a while. That's true for the entire agricultural sector. The place I grew up looks different these days, and sometimes I get all sad and nostalgic when I go back. But that's life. Nevada has never been and never will be rich agricultural land. It is no great shock small ranches there are dying out in the face of more efficient competitors. Nor is it a great shock some number of people there seek to invent a bad guy to blame it on.
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Nov 1, 2016 09:17
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Gobbeldygook posted:assuming you're not being sarcastic, they were all grazing their cattle on federal land and either had their grazing rights bought out by the government or gave up because the government cut the amount of cattle they were allowed to raise below economical viability. there was no land for him to buy. the federal government owns about 85% of the land in nevada and will not sell it. Yeah, but he outright owns 150 acres. Presumably they owned some of their own land too. The BLM claims they monitor the situation and set the limits based on what the land can support. It's entirely possible that the level of grazing that land could support 100 years ago was much higher than what the land can support now. Overgrazing leads to the land being depleted. Desertification can set in, and then the land is hosed for everyone. Lots of things aren't economically viable.
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Nov 1, 2016 09:19
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John Brown was once portrayed by Johnny Cash in a brief cameo on a made for tv movie. He gets a good line, imho https://youtu.be/T1Vwqyr4stM
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Nov 1, 2016 09:20
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The long title of the 1934 Taylor Grazing Act that gave rise to grazing allotments and fees on federal land in the west definitely wasn't quote:
Nope. 1993 was the very first time anyone looked at rangeland in the west and asked about the sustainability of grazing.
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Nov 1, 2016 09:48
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Facebook Aunt posted:Yeah, but he outright owns 150 acres. Presumably they owned some of their own land too.
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Nov 1, 2016 10:07
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Gobbeldygook posted:For land like Nevada, 150 acres is enough to graze maybe a half-dozen cattle and lol if you think buying up a bunch of tiny disconnected ranches and grazing bullshit amounts of cattle is feasible. The BLM cut grazing allotments to protect the endangered desert tortoise (which Bundy et al maintain they weren't actually harming). That is why Bundy has support from other ranchers despite his cattle herd being a feral disease-ridden public nuisance: other ranchers see no reason why the government couldn't put them out of business by fiat. "other ranchers"
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Nov 1, 2016 10:21
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Nov 1, 2016 10:29
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Semisponge posted:sorry for my ignorance but who the goldang gently caress is joh n brown -religious fundamentalist / slavery abolitionist -led a band of family and supporters into Kansas when it was a territory considering slavery -killed pro-slavery supporters in their sleep, with swords -traveled to Harper's Ferry, Virginia with a band of men, armed with loving pikes of all things -took over a Federal armory in the hopes of arming a slave rebellion -fought the US Marines -was captured by Robert E. Lee -hung for treason -became the subject of one of the more popular Union battle songs he was basically the yin to ISIS's yang Seizure Meat has issued a correction as of 10:43 on Nov 1, 2016 |
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Nov 1, 2016 10:36
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I have, may it please the Court, a few words to say. In the first place, I deny everything but what I have all along admitted, the design on my part to free the slaves. I intended certainly to have made a clean thing of that matter, as I did last winter, when I went into Missouri and there took slaves without the snapping of a gun on either side, moved them through the country, and finally left them in Canada. I designed to have done the same thing again, on a larger scale. That was all I intended. I never did intend murder, or treason, or the destruction of property, or to excite or incite slaves to rebellion, or to make insurrection. I have another objection; and that is, it is unjust that I should suffer such a penalty. Had I interfered in the manner which I admit, and which I admit has been fairly proved (for I admire the truthfulness and candor of the greater portion of the witnesses who have testified in this case), had I so interfered in behalf of the rich, the powerful, the intelligent, the so-called great, or in behalf of any of their friends, either father, mother, brother, sister, wife, or children, or any of that class, and suffered and sacrificed what I have in this interference, it would have been all right; and every man in this court would have deemed it an act worthy of reward rather than punishment. This court acknowledges, as I suppose, the validity of the law of God. I see a book kissed here which I suppose to be the Bible, or at least the New Testament. That teaches me that all things whatsoever I would that men should do to me, I should do even so to them. It teaches me, further, to "remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them." I endeavored to act up to that instruction. I say, I am yet too young to understand that God is any respecter of persons. I believe that to have interfered as I have done as I have always freely admitted I have done in behalf of His despised poor, was not wrong, but right. Now, if it is deemed necessary that I should forfeit my life for the furtherance of the ends of justice, and mingle my blood further with the blood of my children and with the blood of millions in this slave country whose rights are disregarded by wicked, cruel, and unjust enactments, I submit; so let it be done! Let me say one word further. I feel entirely satisfied with the treatment I have received on my trial. Considering all the circumstances. it has been more generous than I expected. But I feel no consciousness of guilt. I have stated from the first what was my intention and what was not. I never had any design against the life of any person, nor any disposition to commit treason, or excite slaves to rebel, or make any general insurrection. I never encouraged any man to do so, but always discouraged any idea of that kind. Let me say, also, a word in regard to the statements made by some of those connected with me. I hear it has been stated by some of them that I have induced them to join me. But the contrary is true. I do not say this to injure them, but as regretting their weakness. There is not one of them but joined me of his own accord, and the greater part of them at their own expense. A number of them I never saw, and never had a word of conversation with, till the day they came to me; and that was for the purpose I have stated. Now I have done.
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Nov 1, 2016 12:41
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http://i.imgur.com/uNZsbgg.gifv
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Nov 1, 2016 12:50
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Nov 1, 2016 15:46
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On the bright side that one guy's face still looks hilariously retarded.
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Nov 1, 2016 16:13
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Feminasty Slut posted:On the bright side that one guy's face still looks hilariously retarded. uh, one?
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Nov 1, 2016 16:21
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 All this talk about John Brown and no one posted John Steuart Curry’s Tragic Prelude. 
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Nov 1, 2016 16:42
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Platystemon posted:
That loving beard. Gets me every time.
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Nov 1, 2016 16:50
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Baloogan posted:uh, one? Which one?
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Nov 1, 2016 17:29
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Ate the Bundy brothers still in custody? Things got confusing after the lawyer got zapped.
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Nov 1, 2016 18:27
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I would totally grow a beard if the hairs stood up on end like a cat's every time I shouted or got pissed off.Grem posted:Ate the Bundy brothers still in custody? Things got confusing after the lawyer got zapped. Yes, they still have pending charges in Nevada.
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Nov 1, 2016 18:35
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Gobbeldygook posted:For land like Nevada, 150 acres is enough to graze maybe a half-dozen cattle and lol if you think buying up a bunch of tiny disconnected ranches and grazing bullshit amounts of cattle is feasible. The BLM cut grazing allotments to protect the endangered desert tortoise (which Bundy et al maintain they weren't actually harming). That is why Bundy has support from other ranchers despite his cattle herd being a feral disease-ridden public nuisance: other ranchers see no reason why the government couldn't put them out of business by fiat. Did you even read that whole article? The reason his neighbors sold was because the city of Las Vegas, through the Clark County Government (which, if you remember, is the highest law in the land according to the Bundys), got the ranchers to sell their land in order for it to be set aside for tortoise conservation. Yes, the tortoise was a factor, but unless you're interested in making the argument that the endangered species act is some trifling irrelevance, that doesn't really matter. There was a land shortage caused by urban expansion. That resulted in agricultural land (the family ranches) being less valuable as agland than as developed land (or in this case, as setoffs that made development possible). This is a story that has played out thousands and thousands of times across the country because, get this, the United States is no longer an early nineteenth century agrarian society defined by a patchwork of small family estates. Yes, land policy is complicated and there are often winners and losers. That does not somehow mean this was automatically a case of "government overreach." There was a higher and better use of that land, and it was achieved through the sale of grazing rights on public land in order to set off habitat destruction associated with urban expansion. This is a good thing. The alternatives are either the city of Las Vegas has a hard boundary past which is cannot expand, or expansion comes without any consideration for environmental degradation. Nevada is poo poo agricultural land. It always has been, and it always will be. The rest of the world does not have to freeze itself in time because Cliven Bundy likes being a hobby farmer.
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Nov 1, 2016 19:23
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kelvron posted:That loving beard. Gets me every time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms2klX-puUU
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Nov 1, 2016 19:32
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Platystemon posted:
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Nov 1, 2016 20:08
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Nov 1, 2016 21:32
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that's me grandad 
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Nov 2, 2016 01:44
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So Apparently they are already threatening another standoff??
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Nov 2, 2016 11:43
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The Pisskey Rebellion
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Nov 2, 2016 11:59
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Dig up LaVoy's corpse, time to shoot him again
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Nov 2, 2016 16:46
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Ron Paul Atreides posted:So Apparently they are already threatening another standoff?? Do it bitches. You shirked martyrdom duties once inshallah 
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Nov 2, 2016 16:52
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Alan Smithee posted:Do it bitches. You shirked martyrdom duties once inshallah I heard an interview with a guy who escaped from Al Qaeda or something like that and at one point he had signed up for "drive the suicide bomb van" duty and it was actually really well managed. Apparently they vet you to make sure you're not depressed and just doing this for, well, suicide reasons. You have to have come to your own conclusion that this is what must be done, what you want to do, how you want to serve the cause. And you can back out at any time, right up to the point where you're getting in the van - they always have a backup ready in case you don't feel ready and don't think less of you if it's "just not your time" yet. Basically what I'm saying is that Al Qaeda treats its martyrs better than the Bundy clan does, especially those idiots trying to goad David Fry into killing himself near the end.
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Nov 2, 2016 16:58
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ate all the Oreos posted:I heard an interview with a guy who escaped from Al Qaeda or something like that and at one point he had signed up for "drive the suicide bomb van" duty and it was actually really well managed. Apparently they vet you to make sure you're not depressed and just doing this for, well, suicide reasons. You have to have come to your own conclusion that this is what must be done, what you want to do, how you want to serve the cause. And you can back out at any time, right up to the point where you're getting in the van - they always have a backup ready in case you don't feel ready and don't think less of you if it's "just not your time" yet. They do that because otherwise the person is likely to back out or blow themselves up early.
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Nov 2, 2016 17:38
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Discendo Vox posted:They do that because otherwise the person is likely to back out or blow themselves up early. Yeah I realize it's that, plus I'm sure you probably wouldn't get into heaven unless your martyrdom was done right because otherwise it's just a suicide. I wonder if hell has an appeals court for this sort of thing.
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Nov 2, 2016 17:40
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Discendo Vox posted:They do that because otherwise the person is likely to back out or blow themselves up early. They still blow themselves up early surprisingly often when everyone gathers in for a final group hug.
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Nov 2, 2016 17:45
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ate all the Oreos posted:I wonder if hell has an appeals court for this sort of thing. The three judges are Hitler, Stalin and (just to be fair and balanced) Nixon. The jury pool consists entirely of your ex girlfriends/boyfriends. The prosecutor is a morphing, deformed conglomeration of the faces of everyone you've wronged in your life, and the defense attorney is Woody Allen.
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Nov 2, 2016 17:51
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ate all the Oreos posted:The three judges are Hitler, Stalin and (just to be fair and balanced) Nixon. The jury pool consists entirely of your ex girlfriends/boyfriends. The prosecutor is a morphing, deformed conglomeration of the faces of everyone you've wronged in your life, and the defense attorney is Woody Allen. At first that sounds kinda fun and then you suddenly realize you're thinking of Woody Harrelson, not Woody Allen.
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Nov 2, 2016 18:04
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Gobbeldygook posted:this isn't all of it. to quote myself from earlier in the thread: Thanks, I knew i was forgetting some part of it. VikingSkull posted:-religious fundamentalist / slavery abolitionist Second only to Sherman in service to the North, praise be upon him. Kazak_Hstan posted:Nevada is poo poo agricultural land. It always has been, and it always will be. The rest of the world does not have to freeze itself in time because Cliven Bundy likes being a hobby farmer. This reminds me of the conservative meme of Yellowstone having Don't Feed The Bears sign because the animals will become dependent on handouts as an allegory for welfare. The Bundy's actually have to get off the government teat, and rather than get 'real' jobs they grabbed guns in order to halt the gears of progress.
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Nov 2, 2016 19:18
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Another reason to avoid feeding the animals is because animals are irrational shits who have no problem biting the hand that feeds, much like the bundies.
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Nov 2, 2016 19:52
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red19fire posted:Second only to Sherman in service to the North, praise be upon him. What about U.S. Grant?
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Nov 2, 2016 19:59
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The real reason to not feed bears in national parks is because when they get food conditioned I have to go shoot them and I really don't like shooting bears.
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Nov 2, 2016 20:12
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