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Mors Rattus posted:No, but they sure aren't ignoring things, either. They set up the world to ensure they remained in control, top down, in every aspect...and even with that they need a network of powerful servants who actively attempt to recruit away their enemies and serve their will. And yet, even with the aid of literal deities, sometimes the direct aid in the form of ochemata, the Seers still haven't actually managed to take over or rule the world in any real sense - or even to wipe out the Diamond. Hell, their last big move? Backfired completely and ended up creating the Pentacle to resist them. There is another theory that explains all the evidence, and that's that the Exarchs do what they do simply because it is in their nature to do so. The Exarchs may simply be what happens when a symbol has enough sympathy with the Fallen World that it gives it power - sympathy drawn from humanity unknowingly re-enacting prayers to the tyrant gods in their callousness, covetousness, and cruelty. Once a critical mass is achieved, they become a self-perpetuating nightmare. The Exarchs are tyrants; tyrants whose sole purpose is to reinforce, empower, and prolong their specific brand of tyranny. To that end, they may send ochemata and visions and dreams because it is in their nature to do so, because a Supernal symbol's nature is in the act as much as the idea. The Seers exist because it is in the nature of the tyrant to enslave servants, not because they're actually necessary. The Exarchs may have won, truly, absolutely, and forever, and the Pentacle simply dreaming at ever achieving victory over the Seers. Not because the Seers are necessary, but because the Seers only exist as an expression of a power whose names and nature are written into the genes of every human alive today. Depressing as hell, but it fits the evidence.
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Oct 31, 2016 20:58
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I suppose if you want to throw out the actual poo poo in the books, like the whole 'neolithic earth littered with the broken fragments of a timeline that was literally destroyed by the Exarchs taking over the Supernal' thing, sure.
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Oct 31, 2016 21:03
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Mors Rattus posted:I suppose if you want to throw out the actual poo poo in the books, like the whole 'neolithic earth littered with the broken fragments of a timeline that was literally destroyed by the Exarchs taking over the Supernal' thing, sure. I'm not sure that's what they were meaning - more that the exarchs, as part of their nature as Iron Seals of the supernal, *must* oppress, *must* have servants, *must* make the fallen world a terrible thing. That's what happens when you make yourself a symbol of tyranny.
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Oct 31, 2016 21:14
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No matter what, the argument if 'the Pentacle is clearly all wrong and cannot win because they haven't already won yet when the game starts despite having long histories' is incredibly stupid.
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Oct 31, 2016 21:32
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Mors Rattus posted:No matter what, the argument if 'the Pentacle is clearly all wrong and cannot win because they haven't already won yet when the game starts despite having long histories' is incredibly stupid. I don't get it, but those people do exist. 
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Oct 31, 2016 21:45
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Okay guys time for the real question Which World/Chronicle of Darkness game is the most Halloween
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Oct 31, 2016 21:48
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Blockhouse posted:Okay guys time for the real question Changeling: the Lost. Hands down. Everyone's wearing a mask.
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Oct 31, 2016 21:56
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Blockhouse posted:Okay guys time for the real question Vampire, everyone is dressed like a goth.
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Oct 31, 2016 22:07
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Blockhouse posted:Okay guys time for the real question Beast the Primordial. You're a horrible little monster, and everyone is going to give you candy or else.
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Oct 31, 2016 22:08
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Mors Rattus posted:No matter what, the argument if 'the Pentacle is clearly all wrong and cannot win because they haven't already won yet when the game starts despite having long histories' is incredibly stupid. That wasn't what I was saying. What I was saying, however, is that the actions of the Exarchs can't be automatically interpreted as them running scared or even as vulnerability. The Exarchs might tyrannize just because they're Exarchs, not because they feel any particular need or concern to. The evidence doesn't really strongly lean one way or the other. Which, while I'm at it... Mors Rattus posted:I suppose if you want to throw out the actual poo poo in the books, like the whole 'neolithic earth littered with the broken fragments of a timeline that was literally destroyed by the Exarchs taking over the Supernal' thing, sure. The Ruins of the Time Before aren't that really strong in the way of evidence either. The existence of Atlantis or even a Time Before are articles of faith by the Atlanteans (Seers included). All that exists in the landscape are ruins attached to Supernal Verges, all of which have conflicting features and some element of mapping to existing human cultures. If they look to the world like anything, it's just another Supernal Verge keyed to a particular recurring symbol, just as shades appear in Stygian ones and Exarchial entities appear in Exarchates. It's a Big Question as to why they are so recurring, but again, plenty of Mages are agnostic towards Atlantis for good reason. Ambiguity is a part of the setting. Blockhouse posted:Okay guys time for the real question Changeling or Hunter, there is no real way to lose when choosing one.
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Oct 31, 2016 22:09
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Exarchs might well be spontaneously-formed supernal symbols that never had personal histories to obscure or obliterate, but that doesn't make them any less beatable. In the temporal world you oppose their servants and undo the misery they wreak, and in the supernal world you perform imperial workings that lessen their influence and overwrite their laws, same as if they were actually guys with names and faces.
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Oct 31, 2016 22:15
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Yawgmoth posted:Some people enjoy having the end of the game decided before they even start. I don't, I hate it and think that designing your entire world's timeline from beginning to end is only appropriate for novel writing, not a game. But some people really get a kick out of "okay so here's the entire plot, now let's act it out with some dice rolls added in for laughs." Just like some people really get a kick out of the PCs not being the main characters and/or never having a meaningful impact on the story or setting. "These people exist" is an incredibly odd rejoinder to "these people are stupid."
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Oct 31, 2016 22:21
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Tasoth posted:Beast the Primordial.  One of the feeding examples in the book is poisoning stolen candy and forcing the person who stole it to aspirate on their vomit by strangling them with a grocery bag.
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Oct 31, 2016 22:26
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In a game where everyone is mostly in the underworld, Geist. With the Underworld as a big spooky house you break into for candy.
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Oct 31, 2016 22:31
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Ferrinus posted:Exarchs might well be spontaneously-formed supernal symbols that never had personal histories to obscure or obliterate, but that doesn't make them any less beatable. In the temporal world you oppose their servants and undo the misery they wreak, and in the supernal world you perform imperial workings that lessen their influence and overwrite their laws, same as if they were actually guys with names and faces. Again, at no point did I say they are unbeatable; only that it's a possibility. The Pentacle might be on the cusp of immanentizing the Eschaton, or they might be fighting an unwinnable war and pissing into the wind. The belief in the certainty of the former is an article of faith for the Silver Ladder, just as the belief in the certainty of the latter is an article of faith for the Seers of the Throne. It's one of the reasons the Silver Ladder are necessary: To remind everyone to keep the faith; to proclaim that the war isn't hopeless, even in the face of little certainty and a seemingly endless and better-armed enemy against whom every battle has a significant personal cost. These sorts of discussions are, incidentally, something I enjoy PCs having in-game.
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Oct 31, 2016 22:49
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I'd like to note that Axelgear's musing on the nature of the exarchs does not preclude them being human at one point either. It's quite possible they were mortal mages at one point that have since been so utterly consumed by the conceptual mantles they took on in their constant grasping at power that they effectively consigned themselves to oblivion. And that such a fate awaits anyone who managed to usurp an exarch's position. The exarchs are only unbeatable if the supernal is truly the end all and be all, but I think the existence of the abyss already proves that thoroughly false.
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Oct 31, 2016 23:53
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Obligatum VII posted:I'd like to note that Axelgear's musing on the nature of the exarchs does not preclude them being human at one point either. It's quite possible they were mortal mages at one point that have since been so utterly consumed by the conceptual mantles they took on in their constant grasping at power that they effectively consigned themselves to oblivion. And that such a fate awaits anyone who managed to usurp an exarch's position. As does the discussion of things from Outside in Summoners. (Your concept of the Abyss is a pretty neat idea for a Scelestus though)
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Oct 31, 2016 23:58
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Obligatum VII posted:The exarchs are only unbeatable if the supernal is truly the end all and be all, Not quite. We know that a lot of the games archmasters play have as their object adding things to or changing things about supernal truths. Presumably if like, every single archmaster to exist suddenly became a pentacle examplar rather than a servant of the exarchs or a neutral party who's just obsessed with personal mastery or whatever, the Exarchs could be rubbed out of the realms supernal and the Ladder could achieve its final victory condition on the spot.
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Nov 1, 2016 00:04
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Obligatum VII posted:I'd like to note that Axelgear's musing on the nature of the exarchs does not preclude them being human at one point either. It's quite possible they were mortal mages at one point that have since been so utterly consumed by the conceptual mantles they took on in their constant grasping at power that they effectively consigned themselves to oblivion. And that such a fate awaits anyone who managed to usurp an exarch's position. Aye; nothing I've said precludes any of that stuff being true. I'm just saying that the evidence for it is sparse. There's a lot of ways to interpret the facts. I'd also agree with Ferrinus that, even if the Supernal is Absolute Truth, that only matters if it's unchangeable.
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Nov 1, 2016 00:13
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The real power of the exarchs is that of the six or seven philosophies that archmasters commonly end up following, only two of them even involve taking up sides in the ascension war in any capacity. It's not that the exarchs don't care about mages - it's that a lot of mages, once they get powerful enough, cease to care about the exarchs.
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Nov 1, 2016 00:29
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Obligatum VII posted:I've actually warmed up to the Silver Ladder's philosophy a lot over the years. Though I sympathize with the Free council's notions that the Supernal is not the only thing that has meaning to it. Welcome to the Scelesti friend.
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Nov 1, 2016 01:10
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Blockhouse posted:Okay guys time for the real question Chronicle with no template, aka "Mortal" or Blue Book. Because you can literally recreate John Carpenter's movies. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLFx30Ijiq0
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Nov 1, 2016 03:19
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Blockhouse posted:Okay guys time for the real question Innocents splat for base, you're tiny humans on a dare to spend a night in a haunted house.
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Nov 1, 2016 03:52
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Crion posted:"These people exist" is an incredibly odd rejoinder to "these people are stupid."
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Nov 1, 2016 14:58
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Kurieg posted:
... How the gently caress did ANYONE involved with this project think that they were writing good guys? Like, anyone at all?
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Nov 1, 2016 16:28
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All we really know at this point is that for at least two of the authors, this was an intensely personal work which they had a lot of trouble divorcing themselves from to look at objectively. I can only assume the rest was the result of the Curse of Black Dog Games, requiring that one bad book be published in order to absorb the bad within other books, allowing them to be good.
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Nov 1, 2016 16:33
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Desiden posted:... Because she's doing it to a Frat boy! Everyone knows they're the baddies.
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Nov 1, 2016 16:35
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As a reminder they deliberately rewrote that example to make the character older since he was originally just a teenaged bully.
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Nov 1, 2016 17:08
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Beast is what happens when someone forgets that, if Krampus were real, people would barricade their houses every Krampusnacht and ready their guns like some kind of Bavarian Futurama episode, because savagely beating or straight-up murdering a child is not the appropriate response to disobedience.
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Nov 1, 2016 19:32
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A game about breaking inside german houses and beating the poo poo out of the heavily armed inhabitants would be cooler than Beast
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Nov 1, 2016 19:34
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I liked it when somebody said that playing a Beast is basically playing one of the Gentry; it's about the seemingly for-kicks infliction of suffering and grossly disproportionate responses to bad behavior. Beasts are predatory, casually abusive and poorly internally justified, just like the Gentry. Vampires are basically forced to be murderers or at the very least, potential murderers. Part of the reason vampire works though is basically of the self-hating vampire trope; whether the vampire resists or gives in to the lures of their predatory nature, you can kind of look at them and see how far they've fallen from humanity. Vampire has a tragedy option, which humanizes them somewhat. They don't start out the way they are. Beasts are weird alien things and if I'm supposed to assume they have a tragedy option, that has to be communicated to the reader. There's no long history of Beasts in literature or movies the way there are vampires, so there needs to be more connection between the creature being evoked and the reader in order to get a sense of what the writers intended. If the example characters are supposed to be especially bad, that needs to be communicated; and if they're supposed to be the norm, that also has to be communicated. "Vindictive teenager: the game" doesn't sound like what they were shooting for.
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Nov 1, 2016 20:39
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Mendrian posted:I liked it when somebody said that playing a Beast is basically playing one of the Gentry; it's about the seemingly for-kicks infliction of suffering and grossly disproportionate responses to bad behavior. Beasts are predatory, casually abusive and poorly internally justified, just like the Gentry. Vampires are basically forced to be murderers or at the very least, potential murderers. Part of the reason vampire works though is basically of the self-hating vampire trope; whether the vampire resists or gives in to the lures of their predatory nature, you can kind of look at them and see how far they've fallen from humanity. Vampire has a tragedy option, which humanizes them somewhat. They don't start out the way they are. I'd argue beasts are worse than Gentry because they have more context for empathy than the gentry ever did. Also because the gentry tend to inflict suffering as a byproduct of only caring about narrative and being utterly self absorbed, rather than specifically setting out to inflict suffering (though certainly some of them do, because that's the kind of story they want to play at that time).
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Nov 1, 2016 23:59
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Mendrian posted:Vampires are basically forced to be murderers or at the very least, potential murderers. Part of the reason vampire works though is basically of the self-hating vampire trope; whether the vampire resists or gives in to the lures of their predatory nature, you can kind of look at them and see how far they've fallen from humanity. Vampire has a tragedy option, which humanizes them somewhat. They don't start out the way they are. Something else that distinguishes vampires from Beasts is that vampires don't have to be monstrous sadists enacting torture porn to feed. Vampire feeding is still a violent assault but there is quite a difference between giving your one-night-stand or even willing blood doll a case of mild anemia and going out of your way to inflict as much pain, misery, and horror upon someone to get your kicks. Beast doesn't just have you be a predatory monster; it makes you be a sadist, which is so very, very much worse.
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Nov 2, 2016 00:07
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You can blame Dave Brookshaw for my newest homebrew project. I started it just today, so we've still got a long ways to go.
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Nov 2, 2016 02:52
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Axelgear posted:Something else that distinguishes vampires from Beasts is that vampires don't have to be monstrous sadists enacting torture porn to feed. Vampire feeding is still a violent assault but there is quite a difference between giving your one-night-stand or even willing blood doll a case of mild anemia and going out of your way to inflict as much pain, misery, and horror upon someone to get your kicks.
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Nov 2, 2016 04:17
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Axelgear posted:Something else that distinguishes vampires from Beasts is that vampires don't have to be monstrous sadists enacting torture porn to feed. Vampire feeding is still a violent assault but there is quite a difference between giving your one-night-stand or even willing blood doll a case of mild anemia and going out of your way to inflict as much pain, misery, and horror upon someone to get your kicks. Yeah I agree with that. I would also argue that it's the difference of operation that is ultimately crucial. Vampires feed on blood (a physical substance); as a necessary byproduct of their feeding, they can inflict pain and suffering. Because all that really matters is the juice, though, it's ultimately up to the character (and the player) to determine how much suffering or risk is at play with regard to their victim. Do they try to make it as painless, safe, and fair for their vessels as possible? Do they try to limit collateral damage? You don't have that kind of elegant nuance in Beast because the suffering is the point. There's a minimum rear end in a top hat bar that you have to pass in order to even try to feed and because 'suffering' doesn't have a quantifiable unit of measure (unlike, say, blood), we look to the example characters to see what that kind of thing looks like. EDIT: I don't know why Beast is the game that makes me always try to write about missed opportunities. What if Beasts only could get their fix from really, really bad people? Serial killers, arsonists, that kind of thing. They can get little hits here and there from avenging minor crimes but it's the big score they're after. What if Beast was the police procedural (ala True Detective) to Demon's spy movie? What if Heroes were born not from random happenstance, but when a Beast had gone too far, given in too much to the gnashing teeth inside of themselves, and a Hero was generated to keep them in check? In this way, Beasts hunt humans who hunt Beasts who hunt humans and on and on. There's also something vaguely compelling about a krampus and a bog monster reporting to a medusa. I guess at the heart of Beast's problems is the pettiness; Beasts lash out at people for petty crimes in ways that are disproportionate to the crime. If Beasts were out there trying to hunt down famous serial killers that would be a lot cooler, I think. Mendrian fucked around with this message at 04:43 on Nov 2, 2016 |
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Nov 2, 2016 04:22
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Zereth posted:Do you have to drink directly from the victim in CofD Vampire, or could you just get a blood donor kit, give your "donor" a cookie and some orange juice and a bandage and send them on their way, and then have your meal? Technically, I think you could do this so long as you were very fast. Blood and Smoke rules that blood from a corpse or removed from a body for more than a few minutes requires you to drink [Blood Potency*2] pints of it for a single point of Vitae. So, if you draw a pint of blood out of someone (the average donation amount), that better be going straight into your mouth, or be there within five minutes or you're gonna get jack poo poo from it. Plus, for most people, the setup and fear of needles and stuff involved with blood donation is going to be way less attractive than getting a supernatural sexually-charged high, Mendrian posted:You don't have that kind of elegant nuance in Beast because the suffering is the point. There's a minimum rear end in a top hat bar that you have to pass in order to even try to feed and because 'suffering' doesn't have a quantifiable unit of measure (unlike, say, blood), we look to the example characters to see what that kind of thing looks like. It should never be forgotten that because Vitae is quantifiable 1:1 as lethal damage, you can underscore a vampire's existence by realizing that at minimum they are consuming enough blood to kill a healthy adult every week. Every casual use of their powers, or injury repaired, can be measured in human lives, and it is by design extremely easy to forget that, or gloss it over. It gets you in the proper mindset by doing so.
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Nov 2, 2016 04:47
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Daeren posted:Technically, I think you could do this so long as you were very fast. Blood and Smoke rules that blood from a corpse or removed from a body for more than a few minutes requires you to drink [Blood Potency*2] pints of it for a single point of Vitae. So, if you draw a pint of blood out of someone (the average donation amount), that better be going straight into your mouth, or be there within five minutes or you're gonna get jack poo poo from it. Oh for sure. And I think that's fine. A vampire justifying their own existence is like 65% of the game along with raiding haunted houses for doodads and trying not to get murdered by your siblings. It's just that how you frame that illusion is an exercise left up to the player character. And that makes all the difference. Also there is a pretty important distinction between consuming enough blood to kill a human adult and actually killing a human adult. Micromanging that moral minutiae is what makes Vampire fun; you can delude yourself into thinking you're not hurting anyone. Beasts set out to hurt people. That's the fundamental criticism. Mendrian fucked around with this message at 04:59 on Nov 2, 2016 |
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Nov 2, 2016 04:56
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Mendrian posted:Oh for sure. And I think that's fine. A vampire justifying their own existence is like 65% of the game along with raiding haunted houses for doodads and trying not to get murdered by your siblings. Yeah, agreed on all counts. I wanted to bring it up to address those same points.
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Nov 2, 2016 05:18
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Mendrian posted:I don't know why Beast is the game that makes me always try to write about missed opportunities. What if Beasts only could get their fix from really, really bad people? Serial killers, arsonists, that kind of thing. Another thing to remember is that Beast's source material is really at odds with itself. Beast simultaneously tries to draw from two sources: Classical myth and folktales. In classical myth, the monsters usually are actually the victims in some readings. Medusa, the Cyclops, whatever beast you care to name; they're usually just sitting around until some guy decides "Hey, y'know what'll make people like me? If I go kill that thing no-one else can kill!". The minotaur just got thrown in a really big puzzle box and was only fed human beings, for pity's sake. It never got to decide what it ate. This is where Beast gets the idea of Heroes from and, if that was how Beast itself got played up, it'd be fair to do so. This is, incidentally, one of the reasons I'm curious about Deviant, because it actually seems to be going this route. The problem is, Beast's characters aren't these creatures. Classical myth monsters are usually purely reactive; they could be replaced with climbing a really tall mountain and serve the same functional purpose in the story. Instead, Beast's characters are inspired by Krampus, Struwwelpeter, the Big Bad Wolf; monsters whose role in storytelling is to serve as a surrogate for the authority figure telling the tale. They exist to provide a really big threat to discourage the behaviour the authority figure (usually a parent) wants to discourage, but without making the parent themselves the deliverer of the threat. In other words, the folktale characters exist as substitute; a way for parents to say "Look, if you don't stop doing that, I'll beat the poo poo out of you", without having to threaten actual child abuse. These things do not mesh in practice, though, because as anyone knows, these things aren't proportionate punishments and aren't meant to be. They're meant to be creepy stories to frighten children into behaving but no-one in their right mind would think that any of those things actually happening would be worth the adjustment in behaviour. Kids everywhere not sucking their thumbs isn't worth mutilating the hands of a random child every now and then, y'know? Now, far be it from me to say that playing a spooky urban legend to frighten people away from something isn't fun, but the moment you actually start hurting people to do it, you're not really being fun anymore; you're being a real monster. The whole point is to prevent the very kind of harm you're causing. When you mix these foods together, you get an awful flavour because you get all the awfulness of being a sadist with the persecution complex of a sociopath. Mendrian posted:What if Heroes were born not from random happenstance, but when a Beast had gone too far, given in too much to the gnashing teeth inside of themselves, and a Hero was generated to keep them in check? In this way, Beasts hunt humans who hunt Beasts who hunt humans and on and on. Somewhere in one of my folders, I have a homebrew I did long ago where Beasts were the original lords and masters of Earth before humanity ascended; immortal, eternal things that existed since time immemorial. Then humans appeared and, while individually weak, humanity has a sort of collective soul that, when sufficiently pressed, calls out for a Hero and empowers someone to slay monsters. Then the Beasts start to die for the first time ever. In the modern day, Beasts are in hiding; forced to be born into a limited, human form until their soul reawakens and is filled with an urge of some sort to guide it to restore the Primordial Epoch. The only downside is that their humanity is more than just a mask, and going back to the World-That-Was may not be such a great thing for them anymore. There were even some Beasts who had never been forced to reincarnate; slumbering since the Primordial Epoch, who are as alien to modern Beasts as they are in turn to humanity. Never got to playtest it. Once I get some downtime I should dig into it again.
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Nov 2, 2016 05:32
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