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Elias_Maluco posted:But still on the AI, it is really worst than Civ 5 AI? I'll be very interested to see what it's like after the first patch. At the moment there are glaring problems such as the AI's ability to judge its relative strength, never upgrading its units, not expanding aggressively enough or making active attempts at securing strategic resources. Things that seem like they'd be pretty easy to improve and are probably down to bugs rather than fundamental issues with the way the AI works. Other issues may mean that the AI still sucks but it's really difficult to see past the current issues atm. Who knows if the combat AI is any good when they're angrily throwing spearmen under my tanks in 1900. Diplomacy wise it's not much better with some really glaring buggy behaviour. They offer to sell you a luxury for 30 gold per turn and 100 gold - remove the 100 gold and click make this deal equitable, suddenly they'll only want 1 gold per turn. And it's always exactly 1 gold per turn, like some dodgy default case branch that constantly gets hit. Many problems that seem simple to patch. I'm looking forward to seeing how much they manage to fix.
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Nov 2, 2016 17:01
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Elias_Maluco posted:But still on the AI, it is really worst than Civ 5 AI? The problem with the AI in this is that it doesn't upgrade units. So it could play better in theory but who knows because it's hitting your modern armour with a warrior that it just bought from it's capital city in the Information era. Diplomacy is a mess too but that problem is huge.
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Nov 2, 2016 17:02
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John F Bennett posted:Yes, it did. Oh Word? 
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Nov 2, 2016 17:08
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Or 2! But it was first in my heart. And that is what counts.
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Nov 2, 2016 17:11
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About 200 turns into a Pericles game and going for a culture victory, Rome comes to ask for a joint war against Egypt. I've not fought a single war so far and my military is kinda weak, but Rome's offering a lot of gold per turn and a great work, so I go for it. Next turn all the civs who were previously neutral towards me have big frowny faces, and my positive modifier with Rome seems to be gone. Hmm, well let me check with Trajan to see what the new modif- -32 YOUR WARMONGERING Yeah, the diplomacy system could do with some work. Also, as well as the bad quotes for wonders that people have mentioned before some of the great people are also kind of dubious. In the modern era the next admiral coming up was Clancy Fernando, who I hadn't heard of, so I clicked on his bio under the portrait. I see he was head of the Sri Lankan navy and think, oh, that's pretty neat and different for Civ, including some non-WW1/WW2 figures, let's read about his career. Then the rest of the bio is basically 'the Sri Lankan navy is really poo poo and has never done anything of note. in any case, he was in charge for less than a year before the Tamil Tigers blew him up. lol.' So I guess they included this poor fucker in the game just to poo poo on him? (Still having a lot of fun, but looking forward to the first patch.)
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Nov 2, 2016 17:45
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There probably won't be a huge, comprehensive "it fixes everything" patch. Firaxis tends to patch incrementally, so while some of the more egregious stuff (like the 1 gold diplomacy bug and the lousy trade and spy interfaces) will likely be fixed, the AI and especially diplomacy are always going to retain some level of jank.
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Nov 2, 2016 17:54
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Yeah, there will probably never in our lifetime be AI that is "good" at Civ. It's a hard balance between the players who play on standard and want a challenge and the players who play on marathon and want to RP an empire. Civ V AI wasn't great, even at the end, but it made sense. Civ V was an attempt to make the AI seem like humans that were out to win the game. As an empire RPer, not a choice I loved, but, again, it made sense and was somewhat predictable. Civ VI's current AI is random as gently caress and diplomacy is completely broken. Hopefully we'll see it fixed before the expansions. But Civs are never really complete, functioning games until after both expansions.
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Nov 2, 2016 17:54
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Tuxedo Gin posted:Yeah, there will probably never in our lifetime be AI that is "good" at Civ. It's a hard balance between the players who play on standard and want a challenge and the players who play on marathon and want to RP an empire. It's true, but at the moment serious AI flaws could be resolved with things like "spend money upgrading units" and "build settlers and send them to fresh water locations to build cities". At this point it's really not a case of complaining that the AI's strategy wasn't complex or clever enough, it's complaining that the AI was AFK for half the game. Afterwards the AI may still be bad, but at the moment they're just failing to do the most basic things that it gives them a handicap that it'd be difficult for a human player to overcome, let alone an AI.
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Nov 2, 2016 18:02
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Tuxedo Gin posted:Civ VI's current AI is random as gently caress and diplomacy is completely broken. Hopefully we'll see it fixed before the expansions. But Civs are never really complete, functioning games until after both expansions. My experience is not that it's random at all, but that the agendas are very powerful, the wording of the information they give you is very strong regardless of their true feelings. If they admire tech, they gush with admiration if you've tripped whatever trigger that is, regardless of their general overall feeling toward you. We are then presented with seemingly-contradictory messages, "wow I love all your tech, you're awesome" and "I am denouncing you, because I hate you and want to make war on you soon." I would rather there were simply a middle ground message reflecting the clue to their agenda and their current state ("Wow, love the tech, but you're kind of a jerk, so that's too bad") if they're not so enthusiastic about you overall.
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Nov 2, 2016 18:03
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a lot of the complaints with AI diplomacy seem to be about joint war. in 25 years of playing every civ game i dont think ive ever once agreed to a joint war
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Nov 2, 2016 18:05
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Here's what they did the first time they patched Beyond Earth, for example: Localization Added support for Simplified Chinese Wonders General cost pass on all Wonders Xenodrome - Provides a small positive influence to alien opinion each turn, and negative alien opinion recovers twice as quickly Panopticon - Gives +1 unit sight and +5 anti-orbital strike range on city Mass Driver - Gives +1 city strike range and +25% city strike damage Gene Vault - Gives free worker to new cities Ectogenesis Pod - Gives 1 Food per 4 pop in its city Quantum Computer - Gives free orbital unit maintenance and +50% orbital unit duration Drone Sphere - Gives +50% speed to worker builds and explorer expeditions Cynosure - Gain +1 20xScienceBE Science for every 3 population in its city Ansible - Affinity XP is gained 25% faster Stellar Codex - +8 Orbital Coverage range Master Control - Free Maintenance and +1 Movement for Workers Precog Project - Military Units can achieve two additional levels of Veterancy Human Hive - City immune to Covert Operations Holon Chamber - Gain 20xScienceBE Science equivalent to 10% of global 20xEnergyBE Energy income each turn Archimedes Lever - Any hostile unit within 2 tiles of the city suffers 10 attrition damage per turn Memetwork - All Affinity Level requirements for buildings, units, and wonders reduced by 1 New Terran Myth - +2 20xCultureBE Culture from Trade routes Markov Eclipse - Military Units attack at full strength even when damaged Promethean - City no longer produces 20xUnHealthBE Unhealth Nanothermite - All air, ranged, and city bombard attacks 25% stronger Xenomalleum - +5 20xTitaniumBE Titanium, 20xPetroleumBE Petroleum, and 20xGeothermalBE Geothermal resource Xenonova - Penalties due to 20xUnHealthBE Unhealth reduced by 50% Bytegeist - All Virtue Tier synergy bonuses require one less point to complete Armasail - City suffers 50% less damage from ranged attacks Deep Memory - +1 20xCultureBE Culture for every 3 22xPopulationBE Population in every City Tectonic Anvil - +5 20xProductionBE Production from Canyons Crawler - +25% 20xProductionBE Production for buildings and wonders Daedelus Ladder - All City Yields +10% Resurrection Device - Benefits from positive 20xHealthBE Health effects increased by 50% General balance Domination victory is now won by controlling all original player capitals including your own. Veterancy Promotions: All combat boost promotions add +10% strength Veterancy Promotions: All unit heal promotions starting at level 4 heal 75 hp Veterancy Promotions: Adding level 5 and 6 unit veterancy promotions to work with Precog Project Virtues: Replaced Applied Aesthetics virtue with Applied Metasociology virtue - City Intrigue decreases faster when an Agent is present Virtues: Settler Clans virtue now gives +1 population in new cities Trade Routes: Trade route slots now primarily unlocked based on city population. Trade Depot allows building trade routes and gives 1 slot, all others unlock at population thresholds Trade Routes: Added option to auto-renew Trade Routes Covert Ops: Lowered intrigue level required for affinity covert ops Friendly aliens no longer prevent city citizens from working plots UI Added tech filters for Units and Orbital categories Victory progress tooltips show explicit status of quest objectives Re-enabling yield for canyon plots (2 20xProductionBE Production, not improvable) Added "Incoming Transmission" on main menu for in-game messaging AI Fixed an issue where Victory Wonders could be built by AI in captured territory, and not be able to be interacted with Fixed an issue that could cause the AI to not aggressively target rival planetary Wonders Fixed an issue where non-Harmony AI players were not clearing Miasma properly AI is now more selective about desiring alliances AI will now form alliances to counter a strong shared neighbor. Other Added my2K functionality to title, allowing cross-game connectivity and unlocks with other Firaxis titles (starting with Sid Meier's Starships), along with other future perks Added Glacier map that unlocks when signing in to my2K for the first time Bugs Fixed an issue where Covert Ops panel could go blank in the middle of a game, or after a coup Fixed an issue where AI aircraft city UI was displaying in Fog of War Fixed an issue where resource pods and relics where not placing properly on the Taigon map type Fixed an issue with the Growth Potential quest failing when the AI would destroy a target station Fixed an issue where an AI leader would sometimes propose an offer that they would not accept when you agreed Fixed an issue where a player might not be able to restart a Victory wonder (like the Beacon) if a Victory wonder was attacked after the countdown had started Fixed an issue that was causing the skeleton to not drop when a Worm was killed (still only a chance, but now works properly Fixed an issue that was causing 20xXenomassBE Xenomass under an existing alien nest to not be counted when the nest turned friendly Fixed misc crashes as reported by Steam error reporting Additional misc bug fixes ...balance, glitches, etc
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Nov 2, 2016 18:14
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I'm glad that My2K stuff fizzled out quick.
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Nov 2, 2016 18:18
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I thought the orbital layer was a cool mechanic and i hope it comes to cVI in an expansion
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Nov 2, 2016 18:21
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Cynic Jester posted:That is only a hammer worth of difference though, and while that adds up, Civ6 is so much worse at starting balance in addition to still having the plains hill issue. Most tiles are 2f/1p. But some starts hand you 5 yield tiles from the get go and like most 4X games, you snowball hard. Add that some civs are just much, much stronger and you can end up in silly situations like a runaway scythia with more horsemen than all the other civs have military units. That you can now start within border range of natural wonders is just another pile of poop scooped onto the poo poo sandwich that is starting balance. Yeah I agree, it's just funny how low key Civ 4 is with regard to balance poo poo like this.
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Nov 2, 2016 18:29
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Apraxin posted:Also, as well as the bad quotes for wonders that people have mentioned before some of the great people are also kind of dubious. In the modern era the next admiral coming up was Clancy Fernando, who I hadn't heard of, so I clicked on his bio under the portrait. I see he was head of the Sri Lankan navy and think, oh, that's pretty neat and different for Civ, including some non-WW1/WW2 figures, let's read about his career. Then the rest of the bio is basically 'the Sri Lankan navy is really poo poo and has never done anything of note. in any case, he was in charge for less than a year before the Tamil Tigers blew him up. lol.' So I guess they included this poor fucker in the game just to poo poo on him? It's kinda funny seeing who is still in but got demoted though. Sucks to be Boudicca or Gustavus Adolphus - went from being a civ leader to just great generals. Far too many of the quotes are horrible though, yes. Hammerstein posted:Only noticed this now....
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Nov 2, 2016 18:37
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Decrepus posted:Someone make an Empire Earth thread. So the AI can cheat its way out of defeat and/or make the game go on forever.
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Nov 2, 2016 19:24
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Efexeye posted:a lot of the complaints with AI diplomacy seem to be about joint war. in 25 years of playing every civ game i dont think ive ever once agreed to a joint war As I posted earlier in the thread I was playing a game with my girlfriend and the AI contacted her to declare joint war with me. I was maybe turn 30? And he was super happy with me. Why do that?
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Nov 2, 2016 19:29
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Hammerstein posted:Only noticed this now.... https://youtu.be/TjDEsGZLbio
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Nov 2, 2016 19:36
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Efexeye posted:Here's what they did the first time they patched Beyond Earth, for example: This patch was rear end. There was a brief spike in player numbers, and then everyone realised that it didn't actually do anything to make the game interesting (EG: The wonder buffs and nerfs were basically random) and the player numbers dropped like a stone again.
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Nov 2, 2016 19:40
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Gort posted:This patch was rear end. There was a brief spike in player numbers, and then everyone realised that it didn't actually do anything to make the game interesting (EG: The wonder buffs and nerfs were basically random) and the player numbers dropped like a stone again. yeah, i mean, that's what we can reasonably expect, probably, though
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Nov 2, 2016 19:43
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Efexeye posted:yeah, i mean, that's what we can reasonably expect, probably, though Oh right. Yeah, Firaxis are loving terrible at supporting their products.
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Nov 2, 2016 19:56
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Gort posted:This patch was rear end. There was a brief spike in player numbers, and then everyone realised that it didn't actually do anything to make the game interesting (EG: The wonder buffs and nerfs were basically random) and the player numbers dropped like a stone again. Yeah, but beyond earth had problems that were fundamental to the whole concept of the thing. Civ 6 has a bunch of things that are really interesting, if the glitches get fixed and the AI gets fixed so it makes some basic attempts at using the game mechanics it could help a lot.
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Nov 2, 2016 19:56
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S.T.C.A. posted:Civ6: improved by the addition of slavery? slavery was a good and super-important part of civ 4 but grafting it onto civ 6 would require some really major changes to balance and progression but then, i don't see any actually good solutions to the production situation that i wouldn't describe as major and that's without even touching on how pop growth works and is gated in 6. having a dozen farms and not working them is bizarre.
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Nov 2, 2016 19:58
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S.T.C.A. posted:Civ6: improved by the addition of slavery? It's pretty bizarre to exclude slavery from the game completely (both as something you can do or something you can trade) when basically every major power in pre-modern history made extensive use of it.
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Nov 2, 2016 20:09
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No, it's not really bizarre that an American company in 2016 won't make slavery a thing in their video game. Especially not as "something you can trade". It's admittedly a bit odd how the games still tiptoe around the subject, like with the oral tradition pantheon (culture from plantations, specifically?  ).
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Nov 2, 2016 20:18
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Kassad posted:No, it's not really bizarre that an American company in 2016 won't make slavery a thing in their video game. Especially not as "something you can trade". Medieval 2 Total War had slaves as a tradeable item without any uproar.
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Nov 2, 2016 20:23
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Chalks posted:Civ 6 has a bunch of things that are really interesting, if the glitches get fixed and the AI gets fixed so it makes some basic attempts at using the game mechanics it could help a lot. Perhaps, but Firaxis are really bad at fixing glitches and AI and they take forever to make even a half-hearted effort. Like, we're talking literally years before Civ 6 get substantially altered, you're going to be paying 75% of the cost of the game again for them to do it, and all they're going to do is move things around so that there are different large problems with the game. You also won't hear poo poo from the actual developers of the game about what they're doing to fix it, or what their original intentions were. The good thing about Civ 6 is that it appears more ready to accept mods than Civ 5 was, so maybe there's some hope there? The developers barely understand their own game so that's a dead end.
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Nov 2, 2016 20:25
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Want to conquer the world and burn down all other civs cities? Sure go ahead. Not only that. If you do that you will win the game. But Slavery? Get the gently caress out.
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Nov 2, 2016 20:29
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Kassad posted:No, it's not really bizarre that an American company in 2016 won't make slavery a thing in their video game. Especially not as "something you can trade". Though I seriously doubt slavery was omitted because of political reasons.
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Nov 2, 2016 20:51
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Holy crap inquisitors are powerful now. Had a flotilla of Aztec Apostles running through my Civ and I followed them with a handful of Inquisitors wiping out their stench.
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Nov 2, 2016 21:08
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Kassad posted:No, it's not really bizarre that an American company in 2016 won't make slavery a thing in their video game. Especially not as "something you can trade". PirateBob posted:Medieval 2 Total War had slaves as a tradeable item without any uproar. It was also developed by a British company and published by a Japanese one.
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Nov 2, 2016 21:12
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Also Civilization 6 has slaves so
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Nov 2, 2016 21:17
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Lowen posted:It was also developed by a British company and published by a Japanese one. Let's not pretend like there are legit reasons for omitting slavery from a game like Civilization (except if it doesn't work for balance/gameplay reasons). What form would be supposed public backlash (lol, back lash) take, do you think?
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Nov 2, 2016 21:17
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Lowen posted:It was also developed by a British company and published by a Japanese one. Is slavery a uniquely American phenomenon? (Hint: No)
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Nov 2, 2016 21:18
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Boy, this is going to be a real dumb discussion, huh
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Nov 2, 2016 21:20
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Slavery still exists today, there, I said it.
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Nov 2, 2016 21:34
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PirateBob posted:Let's not pretend like there are legit reasons for omitting slavery from a game like Civilization (except if it doesn't work for balance/gameplay reasons). Not sure why you're asking me this? Kassad (not me) was talking about how an American company might feel a little uncomfortable about making slavery a game mechanic and your counter-example was a game made by a British company. I was just pointing that out. I agree with Tom Tucker that Civ6 does actually have slavery though. You can capture enemy workers and settlers, plus there's the Aztec eagle warrior special ability. Kanfy posted:Boy, this is going to be a real dumb discussion, huh Going to be?
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Nov 2, 2016 21:53
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Confederate States of America civ
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Nov 2, 2016 21:55
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Lowen posted:Kassad (not me) was talking about how an American company might feel a little uncomfortable about making slavery a game mechanic and your counter-example was a game made by a British company. I was just pointing that out. Britain was hip-deep in the slave trade also, though. We hardly have clean hands.
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Nov 2, 2016 21:57
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their bonus would be something else like "great generals fortified in a city provide a 100% culture bonus" or "automatically spawn resistance units if a city is razed"
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Nov 2, 2016 22:01
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