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americong posted:Are there reliable ways to validate yourself that your boss is a bad boss rather than yourself being hard to work with? Obviously its hard to tell tone and meaning from an internet forum, but "you can do X to enable Y, if that's your thing" is a lovely way of saying you think someone is wrong. The additional commentary is probably what earned you an rear end chewing. Everyone wants to contribute in their first real job, but since you are only on the job 6 months, its probably better to keep YOUR head down a little and learn from your colleagues who have been doing this longer. Losing the snark and listening a little will go a long way to being a better team player.
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Nov 4, 2016 03:59
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I would never trust a freshly graduated first-real-job-haver to be able to accurately assess that in any way, shape, or form. I can tell you that everyone's been there. You either learn from it or you don't. The folks that don't usually wind up being insufferable assholes that never advance at any of their 15+ stops. I would advise sticking it out for at least another year and a half if you can make it that long. Ask your direct supervisor for the feedback you're looking for here. Try listening instead of just hearing.
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Nov 4, 2016 04:05
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mayodreams posted:Obviously its hard to tell tone and meaning from an internet forum, but "you can do X to enable Y, if that's your thing" is a lovely way of saying you think someone is wrong. The additional commentary is probably what earned you an rear end chewing. I think that's fair. I hadn't even thought about it in that sense, but probably if things are tense then I gotta double down on choosing my words correctly.
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Nov 4, 2016 04:05
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milk milk lemonade posted:I would never trust a freshly graduated first-real-job-haver to be able to accurately assess that in any way, shape, or form. depressing, yet actionable
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Nov 4, 2016 04:08
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milk milk lemonade touched on it but I'll kinda drive home the nail that he lined up. You're in your early 20s. You're the problem. Use it as a learning opportunity. It's tempting to say "I am who I am, I'm not changing who I am!" but yeah, that's kinda what you do. Figure out what your direct supervisor wants, then do that. Then get a new supervisor and repeat the same process. You're essentially just molding your professional image a little bit at a time. e: This isn't a personality conflict, but I'll give you an example. My last director liked to know everything. If I was coming to him, I better be bringing 3 paragraphs worth of citations. He slid out and a new one moved in. I learned pretty quickly that the new director simply doesn't have time for all of that. Bring him options, bring him an opinion, he'll run it through the bullshit detector and away you go. It's just learning how a supervisor wants you to operate and acting accordingly. MC Fruit Stripe fucked around with this message at 04:14 on Nov 4, 2016 |
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Nov 4, 2016 04:10
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MC Fruit Stripe posted:milk milk lemonade touched on it but I'll kinda drive home the nail that he lined up. That example was pretty helpful. I guess even if in a few months' time, once I've hit a year or so, and have some more flexibility and credibility - even if I still feel like he's a demon sent to make me less productive, dealing with that is probably an essential job skill for a dev, and something I could use at a different shop.
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Nov 4, 2016 04:18
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Sometimes you're just not going to like a guy. I had a supervisor 5 years ago who I still think about once a month. I hope he has a particularly nasty rash somewhere hard to reach. But I'm 5 years older now, and I wonder if I might be able to work more effectively with him today. Thank god I don't have to find out, though.
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Nov 4, 2016 04:20
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americong posted:depressing, yet actionable It's not depressing honestly. It's not like I've got a lot of time on you - I've been doing professional IT work for eight years. I'm in my early 30's. It might not seem like it now but you'll be 30 before you know it. MC Fruit Stripe makes some really good points that are almost certainly based on personal experience. Like I said, everyone's been there. I used to be so obsessed with people understanding everything I understood about why I reached a conclusion I would bore them to death with details. Folks I worked for would tell me to sum it up, stop talking, etc.. At first I took it personally, like God drat it if I had to do all this thinking you will too! It wasn't spergy or anything, I just have a tendency not to shut the gently caress up when I've put effort into something. But I came to realize early on that a) being that verbose pissed people off b) it confused half the people I was talking to and c) my managers did not have time for that poo poo. Here are some other things that have happened over eight years: - I don't decide to die on every hill - I don't believe I'm right about everything anymore - I don't believe I'm the smartest person in the room anymore - I don't argue with my supervisors/managers/directors. I make my case and let it be, and I now get my way a lot - I listen to what my supervisor is saying. I don't hear them and go do whatever I want. I make a conscience effort to deliver on every single detail they ask me to deliver on - I don't worry about managerial decisions I have no input on There's probably more. Unfortunately I can't tell you which are a result of getting older and which are the result of professional development. But I can tell you eight years ago I was a lovely, horrible, annoying employee. I would fire young me today. Someday you'll want to as well assuming you have the ability to be introspective and develop as a professional.
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Nov 4, 2016 04:25
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milk milk lemonade posted:It's not depressing honestly. It's not like I've got a lot of time on you - I've been doing professional IT work for eight years. I'm in my early 30's. It might not seem like it now but you'll be 30 before you know it. This is excellent advice that should go in the OP.
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Nov 4, 2016 04:30
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Fortunately for me, I have a pretty compelling reason to leave town in like eight months. So this isn't forever, and it's going to be at least OK for my resume. Semi-related advice seeking: anyone have coping strategies for being someone who strongly prefers written requirements, but the company culture emphasizes sitting on the patio, talking, and smoking/skype calls/chats in the middle of the shop floor? It's not something I'm going to plausibly change about them, of course, and the ship has probably sailed on me coming off as the mega introvert weirdo. But poo poo just instantly drops out of my mind if I can't reference a ticket or notes or something, and it sucks for someone to say "ah but I said that!" a month later.
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Nov 4, 2016 04:32
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milk milk lemonade posted:But I can tell you eight years ago I was a lovely, horrible, annoying employee. I would fire young me today.
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Nov 4, 2016 04:32
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milk milk lemonade posted:It's not depressing honestly. It's not like I've got a lot of time on you - I've been doing professional IT work for eight years. I'm in my early 30's. It might not seem like it now but you'll be 30 before you know it. MC Fruit Stripe posted:I can't remember where I picked this up, and I am probably paraphrasing a famous quote here, but I love the idea that if you look back at your younger self and aren't horrified at what you see then you aren't growing enough as a person. Well, I sure as poo poo would have fired me at my internship. So that's a step in the right direction. I guess. The depressing line was probably the same snark slipping through. Work isn't the forums, americong
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Nov 4, 2016 04:35
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americong posted:Fortunately for me, I have a pretty compelling reason to leave town in like eight months. So this isn't forever, and it's going to be at least OK for my resume. One of the maxims from my undergrad engineering program was 'if its not written, its not a requirement.' I take that to heart and drive requests, questions, and planning to tickets and email where possible. For example, if you having shop talk over beers and someone has a good idea or proposal, touching base in an email as a follow up the next day summarizing it and making sure everyone is on the same page if you are the one who is working on it works well. Most of us have 'Told You So' folders in email where we CYA for the eventual failure. No one likes hearing I told you so, but part of being a senior team member is trying to avoid issues rather than fire fighting. I have no problem shooting an email saying 'just to confirm, you want me to do A where B is a possible outcome' to CYA and ensure that the decision makers are aware of the consequences. I learned the hard way this is better than standing your ground and fighting the decisions of leadership.
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Nov 4, 2016 04:45
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mayodreams posted:One of the maxims from my undergrad engineering program was 'if its not written, its not a requirement.' I take that to heart and drive requests, questions, and planning to tickets and email where possible. I swear, if I wasn't so used to keeping . in my clipboard I could probably throw 'Send an email to (distro) and we'll get you taken care of.' in there and spend half of my day hitting Ctrl-V. MC Fruit Stripe fucked around with this message at 04:57 on Nov 4, 2016 |
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Nov 4, 2016 04:55
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MC Fruit Stripe posted:Shifting this thread back to its true purpose which is to gripe about poo poo I actually came here to bitch about how much I hate doing FC zoning. The docs we had contained a small typo on the device alias for the storage that hosed up the zoning I wrote out in notepad++. I am also not terribly comfortable with Cisco MDS, so that was fun this afternoon trying to unfuck the improperly named zones and removing the bad device aliases.
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Nov 4, 2016 05:03
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Lots of good advice being given out ITT. I'll just pile on and say that, broadly speaking, it's on you to conform to your boss' style of working. Especially early on in your career, when by definition they probably do know better. As long as they aren't being actually abusive/manipulative/unethical. If you want to elaborate on exactly what "chewed out" means, we can let you know how normal their behavior was. A previous job was my first time reporting directly to an executive (at a small company, but still). I was miserable for a while until I learned what he needed. He did not want you to come to him with options. He wanted "I've weighed the options, we should do this, and here's why in one short paragraph. yes/no?". I wasted a ton of time sending him nuanced email novels only to get back "yes" in response. Or worse, nothing. Which made me flip the gently caress out about how I was being ignored and disrespected. Until someone clued me in that that's just all that senior managers have time for. And that it's deliberately pushing the decision back down to the people actually doing the work, which is good. The manager is just acting as a backstop against awful/irresponsible choices. That all assumes actual competent management, of course. Some bosses are objectively awful, and further posting here will help us learn which kind you have 
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Nov 4, 2016 05:03
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MC Fruit Stripe posted:I swear, if I wasn't so used to keeping . in my clipboard I could probably throw 'Send an email to (distro) and we'll get you taken care of.' in there and spend half of my day hitting Ctrl-V. Is there a HipChat plugin to respond to any direct message with "THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONCERN! PLEASE DO THE NEEDFUL AND OPEN A TICKET AT http://lol.com/JIRA/"? Because that would reduce my stress by 1000x. And I don't even work in an end-user facing position anymore.
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Nov 4, 2016 05:10
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Docjowles posted:Lots of good advice being given out ITT. I'll just pile on and say that, broadly speaking, it's on you to conform to your boss' style of working. Especially early on in your career, when by definition they probably do know better. As long as they aren't being actually abusive/manipulative/unethical. Given that the theme is griping... I've gotten a feeling that he's averse to laying out his real specs (for political reasons), or thinks that a thirty-minute conversation that meanders between the regional politics of his homeland, the dynamics of a suspension under heavy braking, and oh maybe this feature would be cool, is a spec. Which sounds work-aroundable to me, but when I've tried pressing for detail in a textual form, I get invited to another meandering thirty-minute conversation. So I gotta figure out a different technique. But the really puzzling part is that I'll get random, uh, checkups where I'll be in the middle of my workflow, he'll just sidle up next to my desk until I notice that he's there, and sometimes he'll have me walk him through the details of exactly what I'm implementing, explain it three different ways (I'm getting better at this but I'm ten times better at written explanations), justify details that I hadn't yet internally justified and was planning to in text form whenever I made a PR, and by the time that's done the 15 people around us have gotten to hear about something that was "dumb hack" grade to me fifteen minutes prior. I can sincerely believe that he is acting in good faith, but I cannot imagine what the thought process going into that kind of management strategy is. (I'm coming off super insufferable in this post and thread)
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Nov 4, 2016 05:15
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First jobs are a big learning experience for anybody especially when you're in early 20s. Like I used to actively try and take EVERY THING personally in my job whether it be daily work or interpersonal relationships. I mean I would get SUPER pissed off if somebody commented on work I just completed. I also had to learn how to deal with people from different backgrounds and age groups. Some people take technical explanations as you trying to talk down to them while others get pissed off that you have too limited of information. Biggest learning curve is just learning how professional environments work outside of a college setting. One thing that I found really helps is that I repeat instruction back to my manager so that we both know that we understand each other. Some managers are more receptive to criticism when they hear their own words and have a chance to think about it. I also have a manager who is a bit bipolar and either wants too much information or doesn't give a gently caress (which coincides with his medicine supply incidentally). I just got in the habit of writing down follow up items and send out a quick update every week on things I'm working on. I'm 27 now and I feel I have a decent grasp on intercompany relations, but I still get pissed every once in a while when a good idea gets struck down by bureaucracy. As other posters have said, not every hill is the one you should die on.
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Nov 4, 2016 05:17
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I would recommend asking co-workers for their thoughts on the situation or look to find greener pastures. It's not that your bad at your job but it's kind of important that you and your immediate supervisor have a mutual understanding of one another.
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Nov 4, 2016 05:52
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I'll be having a technical interview with someone in America. It's the 3rd interview. Can I assume that they are seriously interested in me? Will they hold it against me if some english words escape me at that moment?
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Nov 4, 2016 09:53
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Sefal posted:I'll be having a technical interview with someone in America. If it's a third interview, it's probably safe to assume they're aware of any language difficulties you might have. Technical interviews tend to be about showing the thought process for how you solve a problem rather than the exact language describing it, so you'll probably be fine either way if you can show you know what you're actually trying to explain.
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Nov 4, 2016 10:01
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Neddy Seagoon posted:If it's a third interview, it's probably safe to assume they're aware of any language difficulties you might have. Technical interviews tend to be about showing the thought process for how you solve a problem rather than the exact language describing it, so you'll probably be fine either way if you can show you know what you're actually trying to explain. Awesome. Gonna do my best.
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Nov 4, 2016 10:05
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Taking our jobs? You're what Trump warned me about!!! (this is a joke. it's terrible. I don't have anything more relevant to edit into its place. hey who likes pie?)
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Nov 4, 2016 13:41
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mayodreams posted:One of the maxims from my undergrad engineering program was 'if its not written, its not a requirement.' I take that to heart and drive requests, questions, and planning to tickets and email where possible. Agreed on this. I'm not going to do jack poo poo that could affect an environment without proper written consent from someone who has the power to give it. First rule of IT is if you're going to risk breaking something, you need to have permission to do it.
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Nov 4, 2016 14:50
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MC Fruit Stripe posted:Shifting this thread back to its true purpose which is to gripe about poo poo, but oh my god do I hate requests that are not in an email or ticket. I dread logging on to Lync or opening Slack because they function as little more than a way for people to jump the line. Oh what's that, you noticed I was on Lync? Yes, that absolutely entitles you to interrupt the 7 other things I am working on right now, how may I best assist you in your efforts to remember your password? Preach. I don't have this problem as much anymore but when I was managing people it drove me nuts. We had a policy that boiled down to "open a ticket or you get no service" but my guys all hated to tell people no. We had a particular group of internal customers that hated tickets so much that they're try individually IMing everyone on my team, hoping someone would help them over IM, before they'd submit a ticket. Then I'd ask my guys how come their ticket metrics had taken a dive for a given week, and the answer would be "I can't get time to close tickets because I'm always getting interrupted by people on IM." I had to get pretty surly with a lot of people to make even a dent in the problem. It takes 30 seconds to open a ticket. Why would anyone want to spend two minutes hunting around in IM for someone who would ignore policy when it takes so little time to follow it?
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Nov 4, 2016 15:25
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Zorak of Michigan posted:Preach. I don't have this problem as much anymore but when I was managing people it drove me nuts. We had a policy that boiled down to "open a ticket or you get no service" but my guys all hated to tell people no. We had a particular group of internal customers that hated tickets so much that they're try individually IMing everyone on my team, hoping someone would help them over IM, before they'd submit a ticket. Then I'd ask my guys how come their ticket metrics had taken a dive for a given week, and the answer would be "I can't get time to close tickets because I'm always getting interrupted by people on IM." I had to get pretty surly with a lot of people to make even a dent in the problem. It takes 30 seconds to open a ticket. Why would anyone want to spend two minutes hunting around in IM for someone who would ignore policy when it takes so little time to follow it? People dont like the feeling of sending a ticket off into the ether and waiting an indefinite amount of time to hear back. Yeah it may take 5 minutes to bug someone via IM, and 15 seonds to submit a ticket, but the latter feels worse from a human interaction perspective. And to be frank, I totally get it. I still enforce the rules very strictly here; but I cant fault someone for not liking tickets. I wont touch anything until we get a ticket and my entire organization knows it; I know the value that's attached. I just understand the end-user perspective too
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Nov 4, 2016 15:35
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americong posted:Which sounds work-aroundable to me, but when I've tried pressing for detail in a textual form, I get invited to another meandering thirty-minute conversation. So I gotta figure out a different technique. I always get people running up to me with their conversation already started 10 meters before they've reached me, I get them to hold up, slow down, and let me write this down so I can help. Worse is when upper management slams down something they want with next to no information which absolutely has to be done, and you just adapt. americong posted:But the really puzzling part is that I'll get random, uh, checkups where I'll be in the middle of my workflow, he'll just sidle up next to my desk until I notice that he's there, and sometimes he'll have me walk him through the details of exactly what I'm implementing
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Nov 4, 2016 15:37
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We just got a talking to from our director in the team meeting this morning, basically saying that we need to turn into a more friendlier, cheerful customer service oriented team because of the perception everyone has of us. Well if we weren't two people short and trying to move so many projects forward at once, we'd have more time to be friendlier about poo poo. Time to gtfo after the end of the year! edit: oh and in the new building we're moving to next year, we will be mixed out in open plan office land with everyone else, instead of a separate room where we are now. We discuss a lot of sensitive poo poo, and we need to be away from everyone else for that reason alone, but they aren't hearing it. devmd01 fucked around with this message at 15:58 on Nov 4, 2016 |
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Nov 4, 2016 15:42
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Super Slash posted:but bring a notepad. I like the little pocket ones. I buy a big pack for under $1 each from Amazon, I put it in my breast pocket along with a pen. Our standard supplies are big full sheet yellow pad of paper not great for having on you at all times. I can get them reimbursed but It costs me like $5/year so I don't worry about it. I know I end up looking like a huge nerd with pen and notebook in my pocket but I don't forget when I get stopped in the hall about a "quick issue". Hallway meetings are kind of a thing here not just an IT problem. It's not uncommon for the hallway to be clogged with 2 or 3 managers talking about a project. I've tried keeping it in my pant pocket, ends up with people still talking while you reach for it. I find if I'm reaching towards a visible notebook that they will wait for me to get the pen out before they continue. The notebook also holds up a ton better and isn't a shabby falling apart mess after 2 weeks.
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Nov 4, 2016 16:00
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I was pretty much going to say invest in a notepad. The site I manage is so big and you have to get around it is inevitable people say can you do such and such while I've got you you here... fine. I also suck at logging my tickets so I just write down everything in my note pad and log it after 4pm at which point I no longer answer the phone. But I can do that in my environment, it's just about fitting in with what's around you
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Nov 4, 2016 16:53
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I take all my notes via my phone these days. I don't do *anything* without a ticket. I'll happily open a ticket for a customer when they drop by and ask about something. It's not because I'm anal retentive about tickets, fact is, I'll forget if it's not documented either in my task list or in ticket form. There's been a lot of good advice in the thread, but in truth, sometimes you just get a lovely boss. They communicate poorly, they're angry, they undermine you, whatever. It does happen. When it does, you have a choice to make, either just roll with it and find the best way you can to work with him/her, or  the gently caress out.
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Nov 4, 2016 17:45
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I'm gonna snag a pack of the little ones, good point about easier access.
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Nov 4, 2016 18:09
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They fired some dead weight and now I have a standing desk. Life is good
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Nov 4, 2016 20:36
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Sefal posted:I'll be having a technical interview with someone in America. One of the best working experiences I've had was with a guy from Uruguay. Over chat and email he was indistinguishable from a native English speaker. Over the phone his accent was so thick and incomprehensible that he sounded like a cartoon character. I would say that if you're going to be doing a substantial portion of your work in written communication, you're going to be just fine. devmd01 posted:we need to turn into a more friendlier, cheerful customer service oriented team because of the perception everyone has of us. Try adding smiley faces every once in a while when sending emails.  It's so loving dumb, but it works! Just give it a try!
Dr. Arbitrary fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Nov 4, 2016 |
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Nov 4, 2016 21:47
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:Try adding smiley faces every once in a while when sending emails.
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Nov 4, 2016 21:57
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Nov 4, 2016 22:00
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L
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Nov 4, 2016 22:04
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Man stole my joke. I'd actually never seen that until I started using Touchdown and it took probably a couple of weeks of "why are people putting J and L at the end of a paragraph" to really parse what I was seeing.
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Nov 4, 2016 22:04
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MC Fruit Stripe posted:Man stole my joke. Welcome to Office on 
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Nov 4, 2016 22:08
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