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The classes that benefited the most from the massive system bloat are the strongest and most interesting. I'd assume a good Rebreather build is the same as a good sorcerer build with Lightning Soul, The Society of Sensation theme, the two rebreather feats, and ones that buff the breath. In Paragon, put arcane admixture on it for thunder, take the thunder feats and buy some thunder resistance, and take Lightning Soul. I saw on reddit some guy used the Revenant race too for the immortality.
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Nov 4, 2016 18:25
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slydingdoor posted:The classes that benefited the most from the massive system bloat are the strongest and most interesting. Here is the link to the build I was referring to, for reference: Machine Gun Breathing
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Nov 4, 2016 18:34
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Klungar posted:Here is the link to the build I was referring to, for reference: Machine Gun Breathing Rebreather requires Nusemnee's Atonement. quote:Character must be a dragonborn, with dragon breath.
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Nov 4, 2016 19:01
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http://orokos.com/dnd4e/sheets/8024 Added Revenant cheese, picked better PP and ED. I didn't effort up the retraining progression thing though.
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Nov 4, 2016 19:01
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P.d0t posted:not-joke question: What are these classes intended to do, and what do they actually end up doing? They're basically just warlocks with reduced options and support, and warlocks are already worse at striking than other strikers and worse at controlling than real controllers.
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Nov 4, 2016 20:30
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Don't actually play as a rebreather fwiw.P.d0t posted:not-joke question: What are these classes intended to do, and what do they actually end up doing? They were intended to be a melee striker and a controller. What they actually ended up doing was prove that Essentials had no idea at all how 4e works and that it's developers were super loving lazy.
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Nov 4, 2016 21:36
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ProfessorCirno posted:Don't actually play as a rebreather fwiw. Also, this. Rebreather and the like are fun exercises in character optimization but they're no fun to play in an actual game. They're too powerful and they end up dominating the game and trivializing both the DM's work in designing the fights and the participation of the other players.
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Nov 4, 2016 21:50
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Pretty much, yeah. The rebreather is one of the few genuinely broken builds in 4e. Don't play one.
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Nov 4, 2016 22:46
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Rebreather is one of the relatively few areas where 4E has the out-of-control rules interactions that were common in 3E. Essentially, an obscure and fairly dumb feat has an unexpected impact.
Name Change fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Nov 5, 2016 |
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Nov 4, 2016 22:52
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I mean, they're also adding Revenant cheese, which is the other place 4e rules break completely the gently caress down, so like...come on, man.
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Nov 5, 2016 03:20
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The request was for a known-unplayable broken build, I figured in for a penny in for a pound. The main risk of rebreather is self damage can cause death which really hits your DPR. Broken Revenant shenanigans fix that and make it truly bullshit.
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Nov 5, 2016 05:56
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slydingdoor posted:The request was for a known-unplayable broken build, I figured in for a penny in for a pound. The main risk of rebreather is self damage can cause death which really hits your DPR. Broken Revenant shenanigans fix that and make it truly bullshit. Sensate theme entirely obviates that risk, especially when you realise that the end goal is not to do the most damage possible, but to do only as much damage per shot as you need to to eat through the temps firing it gives you.
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Nov 5, 2016 09:52
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So I'm going to be playing as a player for the first time, starting 6th level and wanting to be a reasonably fun but not necessarily broken controller. Anyone got any build suggestions?
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Nov 5, 2016 12:31
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Spiteski posted:So I'm going to be playing as a player for the first time, starting 6th level and wanting to be a reasonably fun but not necessarily broken controller. Wild shape Druid probably fits pretty well. Otherwise, the default for wanna be a controller is Wizard because Wizards are the best controllers by a country mile.
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Nov 5, 2016 12:52
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Do you want to a) Control stuff mostly up close and personal and have absurd mobility and pretty drat good damage but mostly resolve yourself into knocking everyone prone forever? (Druid) b) Daze everything while you shoot them with lightning and/or laser beams? (Invoker) c) Turn everything on the battlefield into your puppet for one round every so often? (Wizard) d) Use the same attack forever -forever - and make the game objectively less fun as you reduce enemy attack scores to No? (Psion) Druids, if you want to maintain actual control, are usually best off going Predator Druid with an Alfair Spear and a fighter multiclass to slide everything and then prone it, charging a lot in the process and just generally being hyper-mobile. Invokers are the best at mixing damage and control and have incredible per-Encounter powers. Wizards have soul crushing dailies and are best when they focus mostly on illusion and/or enchantment - high control, little damage. Psions have two of the most entertaining Dailies in the game, but outside of that, spam Dishearten forever and are Bad.
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Nov 5, 2016 13:05
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The most fun controller option is going to be either a Warlock or a Defender. Seriously. Controllers are, imo, an inherently anti-fun character type whose main function is to make fights less fun by making GBS threads giant debuffs across the field. The DM doesn't have any fun because the controller has turned his monsters into punching bags, and the players don't have any fun because their big epic fight turned into smashing a loot pinata. The fun and balanced version of the controller is the defender, who exercises control on a smaller basis and who forces enemies into choices where both outcomes are suboptimal for them, instead of just making GBS threads out AOE status effects and trivializing encounters. The Warlock is also a good pick. Great mobility, decent damage, and great fluff/flavor options. They also pack some very strong control without ever really turning into the kind of monster that trivializes the entire fight by smashing out AOE debuffs. Look at powers like Witchfire, Grasp of the Iron Tower, Tyranny of Flame, Decree of Khirad, All the Sand and Stars, Far Realm Phantasm, etc, etc.
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Nov 5, 2016 13:23
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You can play control with almost any class, even strikers, because almost every class has control options if you choose to exercise them.
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Nov 5, 2016 13:31
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Thanks for the quick responses everyone. Playing a warlock is what I think I'll go for, that does sound like the best option for me, as being a same attack every turn psion doesn't sound fun, and i wanted to steer clear of the wizard. Is there any traps for warlock that I should l know to avoid?
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Nov 5, 2016 13:38
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Spiteski posted:Thanks for the quick responses everyone. I prefer the CHA stuff since you can then also be the party face, and CON has shitall for skills. There are solid building options for both though.
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Nov 5, 2016 14:39
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If you want control and CON/INT a swordmage/warlock can do that pretty well
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Nov 5, 2016 15:10
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A discussion in the Next thread brought it up, and I wanted to ask if anyone ever used the Class Templates in the DMG in their monster design. Applying the Fighter template grants the monster Combat Challenge, applying the Ranger template grants Hunter's Quarry and Prime Shot, granting the Rogue template grants First Strike and Sneak Attack, and so on. The Warlord template isn't great because Combat Leader and Commanding Presence are boring numerical buffs, but I think any "leader"-type monster deserves to have Commander's Strike as an at-will. In a larger sense, it makes me think of monster design where you pick and choose one particular "racial trait" such as a Kobold's shifting, an Orc's Warrior's Surge, an Ogre's Reach 2, a Gnoll's Pack Attack, an Ettin's Double Actions, and then the rest are "just" powers from the PHB appropriate to the monster's class/role. Your adventure to fight an Orcish horde might start with groups of Orc Skirmishers with Rogue and Ranger powers, and then you'll move up to Orc Soldiers with Fighter powers lead by Orc Leaders with Warlord powers, and eventually you're going to uncover Orc Warlocks and Orc Wizards manipulating Orc Barbarians and Orc Avengers to do their bidding.
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Nov 5, 2016 17:02
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I made a Genasi encounter with homebrew swordmage templates. Fun for me and confusion for the rest of the players. "What? She marked me then ran away???"
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Nov 5, 2016 17:25
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slydingdoor posted:I made a Genasi encounter with homebrew swordmage templates. Fun for me and confusion for the rest of the players. "What? She marked me then ran away???" FYI, there is a swordmage template in the FRCG.
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Nov 5, 2016 20:49
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Warlock|Swordmage is not a bad controller, but it is very much a defender controller, and once you hit paragon you go into full time defender. Constitution powers aren't always as good as the charisma powers but constitution in of itself can dramatically increase your ability to survive, which is valuable. However, constitution has absolutely nothing power-wise for controller warlocks for the most part. If you want to be a controller, I'd say go full Warlock, charisma base. Fey and SK pacts are both real good for cha builds. SK pact in particular can take the two Raam feats and turn they're already good powers into show stoppers, while Fey has some decidedly mean heroic control powers. The others aren't bad but don't have the support Fey and SK have in their powers if you go charisma (although Star has an absolutely stupendous paragon, and if you're a tiefling it becomes good to the point of near mandatory; Star is a good paragon secondary pact).
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Nov 5, 2016 23:04
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So I fiddled with the Character Builder and came up withquote:Kosyan, level 6 The DM has informed me that I'm joining the group at level 6 and have three magic items to choose at level 5, 6, and 7. Any suggestion, and/or things I should change in the build above?
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Nov 5, 2016 23:34
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Spiteski posted:Thanks for the quick responses everyone. Basically everything Cirno said. I'd look at Eladrin and Tiefling for races. They've both got some fantastic support, and Eladrin is particularly thematic for Feylocks. Myself, I'd probably do an Eladrin Fey Pact Warlock, feating into the Star Pact at Paragon. If you can, I'd use the Sun Elf racial subtype to pick up staff proficiency so that you can use staves as implements.
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Nov 5, 2016 23:35
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gradenko_2000 posted:A discussion in the Next thread brought it up, and I wanted to ask if anyone ever used the Class Templates in the DMG in their monster design. Yeah I never used templates; I pretty much did what you describe. I'd find a monster or monsters that kinda looks like what I want it to, figure out what their "thing" is and then just homebrew stuff together using the MM3 stats.
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Nov 6, 2016 03:36
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Quick check for an enemy mechanic I'm considering, how does this sound, keeping in mind that pretty much every attack that creature would make deals ongoing poison: Whenever this creature's attack deals ongoing poison damage to an enemy that is already taking ongoing damage, add the amounts of ongoing damage together. They are one single instance of ongoing damage, meaning only one save is needed. Whenever a creature saves against ongoing poison damage, record the amount of ongoing damage, and when it next gains ongoing poison damage, start from there. (i.e. you're at og10, you save, and the monster hits you for og5, then you now take og15) Fluffwise it's supposed to be a sorcerer imbued with the elemental power of poison itself, and part of the campaign climax, so it's okay if it breaks the rules a little. Fairly sure the first line is alright, not sure whether to skip the second. I'm gonna be honest with you guys, I'm probably gonna post a lot of quick checks like this. In my wisdom I decided I'd make a custom enemy for each damage type.
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Nov 9, 2016 18:08
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I'd be hesitant to go too deep on things like "the next hit starts from where your last successful save was" because of two things: 1. In ideal circumstances for PCs, it means your outcomes are either "miss or escalate" if you get hit for og5, save, hit again for og5, now you're at og10, save, now og15, etc. It just turns your ongoing into X*(# of times hit in encounter) which can balloon quickly if someone's being focused/trying to be focused (like a Defender role), AND because of ongoing being fixed auto-damage, there's no real mechanical engagement beyond "and then you lose this much more HP, until you lose even more, or stop losing any," especially if that's the entire boss's gimmick. 2. It's a "lose when you're losing" kind of ability; if you're up to ongoing 20 based on being hit 4 times in this scenario, you've already taken 5, 10, 15, 20. Then you save and the next time you're up to taking 25, even though you've already taken 50 damage from ongoing to that point. It IS a cool idea, but one that in practice might feel frustrating or crappy for the players (unless someone has resist all/resist poison/immunity, at which point their level of mechanical engagement is going to be pretty minimal). Possible alternatives you can explore: 1. Ramping damage that resets (like, ongoing 5, failed save makes it 10, successful save drops condition off OR maybe even just reduces to 0 (but then requires saves to keep from escalating))---this is still a "lose when you're losing" ability but statistically means you're going to be better-protected from hitting 'gently caress me this is stupid' numbers while still instilling dread in the players. You can also say that once it hits a certain point it just deals a rolled packet of damage (like 5, 10, 15, 20, then 5d6/6d6 kinda thing) and drops off. 2. Attacks with additional effects on people already taking ongoing (like, applies ongoing 5, if the target is already taking ongoing 5, instead deal XdY damage in an aoe around them as it 'bursts')---this is blatant MMO raid mechanic theft and that's cool + good for unique 4e encounters. 3. Additive ongoing that resets like (1) mixed with your original (like, ongoing 5, hit, ongoing 10, hit, save, hit, ongoing 15, hit, take flat 4d6 and counter starts over/free successful save). In general it's a cool theme for a boss/set-piece fight, but specifically I'd just caution against something that ramps forever when the nature of a boss fight means there's going to be a Lot of hp to burn through, because then you have to strike a delicate balance between 'does so little ongoing that it never becomes a risk' and 'well I rolled badly for a few turns and now I'm losing a surge or more every round until I save, then I lose a surge the next time I get hit.'
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Nov 9, 2016 18:38
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Good points! I'm deliberately making these bosses not solos or elites so they don't overstay their welcome. They do get some extra HP and off-turn attacks so they should end up somewhere between a standard and an elite, and I'm trying to synergize their abilities with the other enemies' (like the lightning guy gets a flesh golem ally, who makes free attacks when hit by lightning). But yeah - I like alternative 2. Let's say I introduce a poison cloud hazard that gives people (stacking) ongoing damage in an area, and the guy himself gets single target attacks that apply additional conditions to PCs who take ongoing. Weakened maybe, or that additional burst. As a bonus, if the party somehow manages to skip all of them, I can bump them down to regular standard and have them all face off at once.  While I'm at it, I'm envisioning the final boss as an old and powerful dragon in a multi-stage combat. Human form, dragon form, astral form, or something. What's the best way to build one of those and make it challenging for, say, a six person level 11 party? I vaguely remember that old Worldbreaker article but I never did get behind the actual mechanics involved. Has anyone successfully built one of those? Can I just copy someone's notes here
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Nov 10, 2016 09:58
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I think the trick with the Astral form of that one would be to make it not have HP, and there's some other way of killing it. The dragon should create damaging zones and terrain, pillars of earth and poo poo.
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Nov 10, 2016 16:16
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Moriatti posted:I think the trick with the Astral form of that one would be to make it not have HP, and there's some other way of killing it. So like: Human form: Maybe some kind of caster, I assume this one will be pretty basic (you don't want to blow all the fun stuff on the first phase) so just come up with some things that are less-cool versions of stuff that comes later. Maybe impose a few low-damage but medium-nasty (slowed, "can't use encounter powers," "take 2d6 damage on using a daily power," that sorta thing) status effects, so that if any roll into the next phase it complicates things further. Dragon form: Zones, terrain alteration. Make the boss relatively easy to reach, but sets up problems for the next phase. Astral form: Make the boss's effects come from an untargetable astral form ghost thing (unless they have powers that deal Force damage for a fun bonus), but have that form tethered to within 5 squares of a floating gem or something that can teleport on its turn as its sole action (and have its turn come up separately, maybe +10 or -10 from the boss-ghost so you don't have people getting an AoE ghost airdropped on them and immediately blowing them up).
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Nov 10, 2016 17:34
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I was also thinking buoys or some kind of phylactery. Though I find those kind of battles enjoy puzzles too. Perhaps a version of the 8 queens puzzle? As for the earth-breaker, I think it's all about giving weight to their blows, even if they miss. It fucks up the area around it. You can even have some especially devastating attacks which are telegraphed. If you do, make sure they threaten objective points or mean the group formation is threatened. Make the players question if they should try and tank the blow to get a better position for the rest of the fight.
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Nov 10, 2016 17:55
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Hey, since Masterplan seems to not let you transfer libraries between PCs, which sucks since I like building stuff on my desktop, what programs do most folks use these days?
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Nov 11, 2016 01:08
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Ash Rose posted:Hey, since Masterplan seems to not let you transfer libraries between PCs, which sucks since I like building stuff on my desktop, what programs do most folks use these days?
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Nov 11, 2016 01:39
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dwarf74 posted:It just checks the PC name. You can kludge it. Gotcha, and I am gonna assume compendium import does not work at all now?
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Nov 11, 2016 02:04
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I don't think I've ever seen players hate/fear a single monster more than my players hate/fear the Foulspawn Berserker, a soldier with a small aura that makes nearby melee attacks hit a random target. The big boss fight I ran today was supposed to centre around the mind-controlling shardmind, but while he got screwed over repeatedly by some unlucky rolls, the party tore itself to pieces in those auras. Between throwing an entangle into the middle of a melee and his giant toad squaring off against one of the Berserkers, the poor party druid crit his allies three times in two rounds.
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Nov 11, 2016 07:41
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Cool dragon ideas. I like using something other than "HP=0" to end the final stage and it ties in nicely with some of the abilities the characters have. Invoker who has learned to extend his undead hunting ability to immortals, assassin who can kill creatures in a way they can't be raised... not major tie-ins, but there's something workable there. Meanwhile, Fire Sorcerer. The party meets him in a forest. What's a good way to simulate the effects of spreading fire: - there are several designated zones he can set on fire (bushes, trees) and he makes one burst in flame each turn - he builds walls of fire over the encounter, allowing him to control the direction, zone off areas etc.; think of trails of flame following characters, engulfing them and so on - the fire-and-forget (  ) method: he can start fires in, say, a burst 1, and their size expands by 1 each round- other?
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Nov 11, 2016 09:02
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If goal is HP = 0 and he knows the party is coming, make him set up the battlefield with a bunch of flammable objects and tinder. The party can clear this if they'd like or if they scout. Also, the thief should be allowed to steal the wizard's amulet of fire shield so the fighter can push him into his own traps obviously. Edit: there is also the possibility his fire immunity is negated in between the battlefield being set up and the fight proper. Have him really nervous about this. Edit 2: Or just have him make trails of flame that follow the players and make the fight Light Cycles. Moriatti fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Nov 12, 2016 |
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Nov 12, 2016 15:28
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My Lovely Horse posted:Cool dragon ideas. I like using something other than "HP=0" to end the final stage and it ties in nicely with some of the abilities the characters have. Invoker who has learned to extend his undead hunting ability to immortals, assassin who can kill creatures in a way they can't be raised... not major tie-ins, but there's something workable there. 1 2 3 4 _ 5 6 7 8 then roll a d4 and say the fire spreads the d4's squares in the d8's direction. If it overlaps existing fire terrain then it's self-contained for the moment, otherwise it just keeps growing and messing with stuff, without having purely perma-expanding bursts.
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Nov 12, 2016 16:25
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