|
put them up against the wall
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2016 20:02
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 13:11 |
|
|
infernal machines posted:I don't know how far Niki Ashton would get by channeling Howard Beale, but I bet it would be entertaining if nothing else. It would be a tough sell given that the people most likely to benefit from social democratic politics tend to either not vote or to vote based on tribalist cultural associations, but unless you believe that the Canadian economy is immune to global trends then there's good reason to think that the same conditions which have empowered the Howard Beales of Europe and America are going to visit Canada soon. I'd rather have the left at least trying to maneuver into position to capitalize on populist anger, if only to try and prevent right wingers from doing so. The NDP would lose any chance of forming government in the short term if it followed my prescribed advice but it might be laying the groundwork for a more substantive success in the future. Since the only real accomplishment of the Layton era centrist NDP was to give Stephen Harper a majority mandate I think it's time to move outside our comfort zone and actually take a few risks. Playing to the centre just made the NDP look like another sleazy party that will say anything to get elected, likely did long term damage to the NDP's brand, and didn't end up delivering any tangible benefits. The goal here should be promoting particular policies rather than personalities. Even if the NDP never forms government, it could aspire for a Bloc Quebecois status as a permanent presence in parliament that aggressively fights on behalf of its constituents. It's not as though anything about the current federal NDP is worth preserving anyway. And given the very real possibility of another massive global downturn in the next few years getting on board the left-populist train now might end up being prescient. Of course this won't happen because the people who run and staff the NDP are more loyal to the party than they are to any actual value system independent of the party's success.
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2016 20:43
|
|
|
Yeah, the NDP needs to very publicly start saying that we're heading into a serious crisis caused by our own domestic incompetent and corrupt economic management, and the general failure of global capitalism to provide any of its benifits to anyone other than the top .1% or what ever. At first they'll be seen as craaaazy angry socialists, but when poo poo hits the fan and our economy tanks they'll be out there ahead of the trumps and conservatives who would say life sucks because we just didn't give the job creators enough freedom and people are too entitled. The NDP need to start positioning them selves as the party that will catch this wave of populist rage once everything starts crashing, and channel that rage at the actual problems/causes and maybe actually use that momentum to push for change. I don't even care if they use that momentum to get elected or form government, all that matters is if they, or some other party, is forced to enact actual left wing reforms due to this organized angry left wing populism. But all that would depend on the NDP: -Actually believing in some left wing ideology -Actually having a long term vision -Not being deathly afraid of seeming extreme to centre-right voters who would never vote for them anyways -Actually care about being a force of positive change in the country above the stable careers of their staff And they are currently none of those things.
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2016 21:20
|
|
|
The NDP can only really aspire to be the tip of the spear on these issues, so the question becomes why there weren't any institutional constraints on the NDP's drift toward Third Way politics. And that ends up as a pretty sweeping indictment of the Canadian left in general. This is also why, for all my bitching about the NDP's inadequacies, the real question still ends up being what foundations a left-wing critique of society could be built upon. Electoral politics is part of the end goal but you can't just expect social democracy to emerge sui generis from the ballot box. So where's the sustained pressure for a more left-wing NDP going to come from? And this is where one runs into the cultural problem with the left. The obsession with horizontalism, the raw contempt or even hatred of the actually existing working class for not being woke enough, the over reliance on online activism, the fixation on a subset of identity politics at the expense of any knowledge of or interest in political economy, etc. The closest you get to people with the kind of political strategy we're describing are probably the larger Trot groups, but they cannot stop talking about Lenin and dialectical materialism and are all completely at each other's throats over minute doctrinal disputes over whether the Soviet Union was state capitalist or merely a deformed workers state. Ultimately their organizations only really seem to exist to perpetuate their own existence, always waiting for the 1917 style revolution they are confident is just around the corner. Meanwhile most of the competent organizers that any party would ultimately require end up being Third Wayers because the only real leftists they meet are more interested in winning campus debates than winning real power. I guess it's hard to blame them for not wanting to sign on to such a long-shot project when they tend to have advanced degrees and can easily abandon any class solidarity they might feel by seamlessly merging into the credentialed upper 10% of income earners. Ideally the left, such as it is, could try to build strength at the local level. Develop networks of like-minded individuals, perhaps eventually recruit and support some left-populist candidates in city council elections, etc. And ideally it would be able to forge some kind of alliance with what's left of the labour movement ,and lean upon that movement for support. But even those comparatively modest goals seem like they'd be very hard to achieve at this point.
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2016 22:44
|
|
|
I work with a number of labour unions and I'm pretty sure none of the union execs, the ones actively fighting for workers rights, could get within a mile of internet leftists without being called worse than Hitler.
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2016 23:06
|
|
|
Yeah potbellied union leaders aren't exactly the most politically correct people on earth.
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2016 23:08
|
|
|
Helsing posted:Ideally the left, such as it is, could try to build strength at the local level. Develop networks of like-minded individuals, perhaps eventually recruit and support some left-populist candidates in city council elections, etc. And ideally it would be able to forge some kind of alliance with what's left of the labour movement ,and lean upon that movement for support. But even those comparatively modest goals seem like they'd be very hard to achieve at this point. I'm no expert on municipal politics, but besides Toronto, don't municipal politics tend to skew to the left? It's hard to tell since there's no official relationship with provincial or federal parties, but I think Victoria, Vancouver, Calgary, and Saskatoon all have left wing councils. Maybe it's different out east? I'm not sure why we don't have parties at a municipal level. In a way, its good that people don't just vote for a party, but it makes it difficult to transfer candidates and organizations up to the provincial or federal level.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2016 00:53
|
|
|
I live in Pickering, just outside Toronto and in our last municipal elections we had over a dozen candidates, each parroting the same garbage about "enriching small business owners" and nothing else.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2016 01:03
|
|
|
GENDERED SLUR posted:Yeah potbellied union leaders aren't exactly the most politically correct people on earth. There's some rare actually progressive union orgs, but most really only care about 1 thing: the income and job security of their members (or even more cynically, just them selves). They can be hotbeds of social conservatism and economic conservatism on every single front except their tiny corner of the labour market. They've been on the defensive for so long, fighting for survival, they don't have time for high minded things like actual national labour politics. They barely have interest in any sort of solidarity with other unions, let alone the entire working class union or not.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2016 01:29
|
|
|
I've had a different experience with the unions I've worked with, they are actually fairly socially progressive and definitely interested in solidarity with other unions and strengthening collective bargaining in general, they just tend to be less than thoughtful when discussing things. Although despite living in a very ethnically diverse area the boards are almost exclusively white, and outside of OSSTF, men.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2016 01:39
|
|
|
Helsing please run for office.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2016 02:00
|
|
|
Union leadership are barely in control of their membership most of the time. The executive has marginal clout as a mass movement the issue is the demise of militancy from within. The world doesn't need more armchair leftists critiquing the current state of politics. What is important is an organized struggle with concrete actions.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2016 02:05
|
|
|
GENDERED SLUR posted:Yeah potbellied union leaders aren't exactly the most politically correct people on earth. And yet they do orders of magnitude more in terms of meaningful work to improve the lives of everyday Canadians, as compared to shouty Internet people who are only happy when they're denouncing people for agreeing only 97% with their political positions.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2016 03:06
|
|
|
My dad was heavily involved in a pretty blue collar union full of extremely "problematic" people but they actually did get poo poo done, and even if the membership and leadership thought gays were gross it was still more important to fight for their rights when it was ever an us vs them thing with the company. My wife's white collar union was amazing too, too amazing so the company shut down all the unionized offices  And yeah, I'd rather have 1 pot bellied union leader who tells the odd sexist joke and gets really uncomfortable if anyone even jokes about "gay stuff" than 100 internet leftists falling over each other to prove who's the most intersectional. That pot bellied union leader actually fought off 100 full time positions being replaced with part time TFW's, and won a wrongfull dismissal suit after corporate fired a lady for an "unrelated" reason when they found out she was pregnant. What we really need is a return of blue-collar leftism. This doesn't mean embracing lovely socially regressive views or making sexual harassment legal (not that most unions at the top would support any of that) but it means actually shifting the focus away from ideological purity on fringe social issues and maybe focusing on economic and worker's issues. Sell leftism to the working class as a thing that will actually directly materially benefit them. Too many leftists try to sell their ideology based on guilt and sacrifice, as if it's something that must be endured for some greater abstract good.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2016 04:04
|
|
|
Baronjutter posted:What we really need is a return of blue-collar leftism. This doesn't mean embracing lovely socially regressive views or making sexual harassment legal (not that most unions at the top would support any of that) but it means actually shifting the focus away from ideological purity on fringe social issues and maybe focusing on economic and worker's issues. Sell leftism to the working class as a thing that will actually directly materially benefit them. Too many leftists try to sell their ideology based on guilt and sacrifice, as if it's something that must be endured for some greater abstract good. Anybody who tries this will at first be ignored and then, if they get anywhere laughed out of the room by our lovely media "Is Mr./Ms LeftWing a credible candidate for PM? Or could they be a communazi socialist from beyond the moon?" *furrowed brow into the camera* Let's have a conversaaaaaation. Here's tonight's panel: a bunch of white people paid by some other dudes we're never going to explain or introduce to you because *cough cough* to explain what you're supposed to be thinking Tighclops fucked around with this message at 04:21 on Nov 6, 2016 |
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2016 04:18
|
|
|
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-conservative-whip-1.3588407quote:Niki Ashton said she was deeply troubled by Trudeau's actions. in case you loving retards have already forgotten this loving gem. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2016 05:03
|
|
|
quote:Obama: Federal Prohibition Not ‘Tenable’ After State Marijuana Votes If the US beats us to the punch on legalization, oh man
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2016 05:19
|
|
|
namaste faggots posted:http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-conservative-whip-1.3588407 naw gently caress you (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2016 05:22
|
|
|
tagesschau posted:And yet they do orders of magnitude more in terms of meaningful work to improve the lives of everyday Canadians, as compared to shouty Internet people who are only happy when they're denouncing people for agreeing only 97% with their political positions. 100% agreed
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2016 09:42
|
|
|
Booourns posted:naw gently caress you lmao at probating anyone for a personal attack on CI of all people in the Canpol thread of all threads AA what're ya doin man
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2016 16:03
|
|
|
Pop-o-Matic Trouble posted:If the US beats us to the punch on legalization, oh man some parts 100% will and some parts 100% won't. but in fairness they get to do it from the ground up one state at a time, instead of having to work out a legalization model that satisfies each province and territory's unique and individual needs. because heaven help you if you take away the god-given right of canadian subnational governments to extract rents in the exact form and manner they chose
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2016 16:12
|
|
|
I mean if they really gave a poo poo they could bring back the decriminalization bill before legalizing it since it was actual Liberal policy back in the ancient days of 2004.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2016 16:24
|
|
|
US will beat us to the punch on broad legalization because the bill the Libs put forward is going to be milquetoast garbage like C-14 (the assisted dying bill).
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2016 16:45
|
|
|
eXXon posted:I mean if they really gave a poo poo they could bring back the decriminalization bill before legalizing it since it was actual Liberal policy back in the ancient days of 2004. I mean if they really gave a poo poo they could put someone other than Bill Blair in charge, but here we are Lassitude posted:US will beat us to the punch on broad legalization because the bill the Libs put forward is going to be milquetoast garbage like C-14 (the assisted dying bill). what was so bad about C-14?
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2016 17:01
|
|
|
Guy DeBorgore posted:I mean if they really gave a poo poo they could put someone other than Bill Blair in charge, but here we are I was furious on election night because I was sure they were going ot put Blair in charge of C-51 reform. How naive I was to think they would even try to reform it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2016 17:04
|
|
|
i think the most class consciousness ive ever seen in the workplace was from dudes at warehouse and industrial jobs who hadn't graduated high school. watching dudes who vote conservative because of their tough on terrorisms platform clearly outline an outright-Marxist description of class warfare, income inequality and the destruction of labour rights without having the vocabulary to link all those things together gave me a lot of hope for there being the possibility of things not being total trash forever
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2016 17:30
|
|
|
Apparently there have been multiple instances of people at anti-NDP/anti-carbon-tax rallies here in Alberta waving Confederate flags. What in the actual gently caress is wrong with people in this loving province? Do they have literally no understanding of history whatsoever?
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2016 21:24
|
|
|
PT6A posted:Apparently there have been multiple instances of people at anti-NDP/anti-carbon-tax rallies here in Alberta waving Confederate flags. I wish Canadian "Rural pride" was limited to Alberta but it's coast to coast. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2016 21:27
|
|
|
PK loving SUBBAN posted:I wish Canadian "Rural pride" was limited to Alberta but it's coast to coast. Oh right I forgot the CSA had no cities in it and apparently all the rural areas in the north were part of it too. How the gently caress did the Confederate flag become a symbol of rural pride, in Canada no less?
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2016 21:29
|
|
|
Because hillbillies have no real culture to hang their hats on so they cling to a symbol of a failed white supremacist insurrection. If they aren't actually racist they certainly aren't shy about associating themselves with violent racism, which is just as bad imo.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2016 21:35
|
|
|
PT6A posted:Oh right I forgot the CSA had no cities in it and apparently all the rural areas in the north were part of it too. I was reading a CBC article about Canadians who like Trump and there was an Albertan seriously arguing Canada needs the Second Amendment from the USA.  We're a different country, we don't need loving gun rights or libertarianism, grow the gently caress up.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2016 21:49
|
|
|
Guy DeBorgore posted:what was so bad about C-14? It violates the charter in the same way the old law did by forcing people in intolerable pain for whom death is not immediately foreseeable to choose to either linger in agony or take their own life. The Carter v. Canada plaintiffs (this was the case which caused the SCoC to overturn the old law prohibiting assisted dying) would not be permitted to seek medical assistance in ending their own lives under C-14.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2016 22:41
|
|
|
Lassitude posted:It violates the charter in the same way the old law did by forcing people in intolerable pain for whom death is not immediately foreseeable to choose to either linger in agony or take their own life. The Carter v. Canada plaintiffs (this was the case which caused the SCoC to overturn the old law prohibiting assisted dying) would not be permitted to seek medical assistance in ending their own lives under C-14. It's still vague as poo poo as to what qualifies and puts the issue to individual physicians to decide whether the specific circumstances qualifies. What th gently caress is the point in governing if you put out garbage like that.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2016 01:57
|
|
|
Arivia posted:I was reading a CBC article about Canadians who like Trump and there was an Albertan seriously arguing Canada needs the Second Amendment from the USA. I remember reading a hilarious demographics poll of Canadians who support Trump a few weeks ago and it was something like 70% of them were white males with above average incomes (100k+). A lot of the pro-Trump support came from Calgary and Toronto, not rural areas. Also gently caress Bill Morneau and Bill Blair and everyone else named Bill in politics.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2016 02:18
|
|
|
Furnaceface posted:I remember reading a hilarious demographics poll of Canadians who support Trump a few weeks ago and it was something like 70% of them were white males with above average incomes (100k+). A lot of the pro-Trump support came from Calgary and Toronto, not rural areas. There are human beings in this country who want pile of dog poo poo in a suit Kevin O'Leary to run as leader of the conservative party, and it's not hillbillies.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2016 02:42
|
|
|
Powershift posted:There are human beings in this country who want pile of dog poo poo in a suit Kevin O'Leary to run as leader of the conservative party, and it's not hillbillies. I still remember when he argued that cars should be built to fail every 5 years so that people would be forced to buy them and boost the car market. The guy is human garbage.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2016 03:38
|
|
|
Hamelekim posted:I still remember when he argued that cars should be built to fail every 5 years so that people would be forced to buy them and boost the car market. I mean people still buy NHL Roster Update every year; every loving business is moving toward planned obsolescence or subscription-based everything, if they aren't there already.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2016 04:33
|
|
|
Turns out Canadians of all different socioeconomic and regional backgrounds are capable of being awful pieces of poo poo, who knew?
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2016 05:18
|
|
|
Powershift posted:There are human beings in this country who want pile of dog poo poo in a suit Kevin O'Leary to run as leader of the conservative party, and it's not hillbillies. who else is better to lead the conservative party than a pile of dog poo poo
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2016 06:18
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 13:11 |
|
|
The issue with populism and socialism is that the greater public must believe in the latter idea in the first place. It's probably better to run as an single issue independent who won't raise taxes; while supporting whatever pressing issues your voter base finds most important. After dealing with their issues adequately there may be room to espouse greater left wing ideals. Trying before that would essentially be pointless in the current political climate.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2016 06:40
|
|