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oath2order posted:Soooooooo resurgammmm has the witch met your expectations? You said you wanted to see something that couldn't be explained as a simple magic trick yesssss? How long do you intend to deny the plain evidence in frontt of your face. I have to admit, this would be impressive if I were there. I wonder if a summoning is what the witch performed to get all the adults to admit her power. I suppose I'd be admitting the reality of magic were real too. ...If I were there, and there were other people to verify what I saw. And after that, I would need an explanation for what happened, and an experiment that could be replicated, by other people, in another situation, more than once. Are you saying, with this post, that if I went to a blacksmith and made myself a Stake of Purgatory that corresponds to wrath, and I made the appropriate gestures in the appropriate manner, that stake would turn into an anime girl calling herself Satan of Wrath? That if I were to brand myself with a One-Winged Eagle and hold my arm just so, I'd get a lightsaber out of my arm myself? These are the questions that proof demands, because the wonderful thing about science is, you don't have to have love to see it, so to speak. If, for example, I combined ammonia with hydrogen, in either liquid or gaseous form, I would have ammonium chloride; I would always have ammonium chloride, no matter the location, or how I feel at the time, or what day of the week it is or if mercury is on the ascendant. Nor do I have to have to be wearing a gemstone, or be the seventh son of a seventh son- all I need is NH3 + HCl = NH4Cl, and I have Nushadir salt. Wonderful thing about science really. Besides, this entire framing device calls things into question; we're not seeing things as Battler remembered them happening, we're seeing essentially a what if scenario, presented by somebody who wasn't present for the Rokkenjima Massacre, hypothesizing what would happen if she was there. She really has no reason to tell Battler the truth, and is a dangerous, prideful megalomaniac besides: why wouldn't she go on and on about her terrible might and beauty, even if it does go completely against the tone and rules set by the narrative in Ep1?
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Nov 6, 2016 03:24
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| # ? May 12, 2024 00:52 |
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I always suspected the real purpose of this narrative style was so the story could have it's cake and eat it too by being both a set of serious murder mysteries and also a bunch of wacky anime magic fighting, but I have no idea how it ends so I could be wrong.
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Nov 6, 2016 03:37
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Oh man, I knew the thread wouldn't disappoint, thanks for the laughs. Just you wait. You'll have love and you'll see that it was magic all along.
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Nov 6, 2016 08:28
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 October 5th, 1986, 6:50 AM   "...Yes." "..."Even though Kinzo had heard of the six deaths, his emotions did not waver. The expression on his face as he gazed out the window... was a smile, as though his opponent in a chess game had just made a spectacular move. It was unimaginable that this expression could appear on a father who had lost many children at once.  "...Under Rosa-sama's orders, Gohda and Kanon are calling the police. After that, she ordered us to follow your orders, Master... What shall we do?" "...This island has already been cut off from the real world. Phones and the like will be useless." "Should I have them stop?" "...Until the roulette is finished, what they do to pass the time is up to them. Let them do as they like." "...Yes." "...Umm...is there anything I should tell Rosa-sama?"  "Y, yes...! M, my apologies...!"Shannon cowered in fright at this sudden rage. Genji made a gesture as though telling her not to say too much. Shannon couldn't help but regret speaking out of turn...  "However... You are also free to do as you wish. Genji. And Shannon. You have done well serving me until today." "Y, your words are to good for me... but, umm..." "...We are furniture who have sworn to serve the Master. No matter what the time, we will be waiting by your side. Until the very end." BGM: Witch in Gold "Huh...y, ...yes...!"Nanjo often recommended that Kinzo write a will because of his health, but each time, Kinzo had gone mad with rage. Since that time, you would think that 'will' would have been the word Kinzo took most exception at. Because that word had come out of his own mouth, Shannon couldn't help doubting her ears for an instant. Shannon hurriedly prepared the side table and some writing paper. Genji also began preparing the usual green, evil drink, just as he was ordered...  "I am ready." "...Hmm. Where should I start from? Should I also speak of my life? It would be fun to leave a record of my memorable games. It truly is fun to read the records of old games from over a century ago, a journey searching for those players thoughts. So should the game record of my life also beckon those in the future to go on a journey searching for my thoughts? Hmph."For a while, Kinzo considered where he should start speaking from, strutting all over the room with his hands behind his back... "Master. Here." "Hmm. Thank you, my friend. Well then. If I am to speak of my life, I must begin writing from when I met that witch. Shannon, copy this. My meeting with Beatrice took place a long way back. What year of the Showa era was it...? I think, after the war..." BGM: None It would be a lie to say we weren't still bitter. Even now, if we gave in just a little, we'd feel like going on a rampage like Jessica, protesting with some kind of violence. According to what Gohda-san said after he got back, right now, Kanon-kun was looking after Jessica. Apparently, she was still very emotionally high-strung.   "Rosa-san... There is nothing more I can accomplish by remaining here. The phones may not be working, but tomorrow, the boat will come, and we should probably be able to reach the police. We should leave this place as it is for the police's investigation." "...I agree with Doctor Nanjo. If you stay in a place like this for too long, it is bad for your health. Let us return and make some black tea..." "...That's right. I agree with that. Battler-kun, George-kun, are you ready...? Let's close this place up. We should also leave this place as it is for when the police come." "You're right. Battler-kun, are you alright...?" "...Yeah. I've cried all I can. I'm fine now."The police would surely find some evidence from a thorough investigation. But we hadn't been adult enough to wait for that. I had investigated the chapel in my own way, trying to grab the culprit before the police got here.   "Come on, let's go out. Maria, we're going. Don't keep staring at it...!" "...Uu-." "Come, come, Maria-sama. Let us return... It is cold here." "...Father, Mother. Thank you for everything. I will, definitely become a man who doesn't betray your expectations, Father..."George spoke his last words of farewell to his parents. After seeing that, Battler imitated him.  "...Dad, Kyrie-san."Just looking at their faces, it looked like they were sleeping... but it was too bitter...  "...At least you were allowed to rest in a cool place like this. I'll definitely get who did this... Definitely..."  "It is worse than vulgar... This is horrible..."When the door to the chapel was closed, we learned about that creepy scribble for the first time. "When we first found this, it was like this. It was probably drawn by the culprit..." "...The culprit was a witch, so this is a magic circle to summon a demon or something...?" "Kihihihihihihihihihihi... This is the seventh magic circle of the sun. Don't you even know that...? Kihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihi.""  "Ouch." "Hey!! Don't I always tell you not to make that creepy laugh!!" "Maria, go on. What does it mean?"  "...Sacrifice of thanksgiving...? So killing Father and the rest was so that they could be sacrifices for this magic circle...?!" "Calm yourself, George-kun...! This is the culprit trying to provoke us. It doesn't mean anything. Just thinking about it poisons the heart." "...And there's some English written... 'HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR... MARIA'. I see. And the key to open this door was handed over to Maria... is that what this is?" "...But this is the chapel. Maybe Maria doesn't mean Maria-chan, but the Virgin Mary. In that case, you could read this as a blasphemy against God, in the name of Halloween. They say that witches who make contracts with demons swear to always defile God's name. In that sense, this really is a witch-like crime." "...You sure know a lot. Did you hear that from Maria?" "...Yeah, something like that." BGM: Suspicion "What do you mean, special meaning?" "Well, umm... they carried six human corpses all the way over here, and made these elaborate decorations. We can't tell whether she called the six of them over here before killing them, or whether she killed them before carrying them over here, but either way, it would take a lot of effort... Why did the culprit want six people to die here...?" "...That is true. In doing something that elaborate, there would be an extremely high chance that when the police came, some disadvantageous evidence would be found. There is no way the culprit failed to notice that. Then, why did the culprit go to all the effort of doing this, is the question we face..." "In that case, there's one question that comes out of this place. What meaning did this place, where we found the six corpses, have?" "...This chapel... was important to Father. Since I was a kid, I was strictly told not to enter it." "Uu-. Maria also came here once, got in lots of trouble... Uu-..." "An important chapel...? Does it have some relationship to the Ushiromiya head family...?" "I don't know. Father viewed this chapel as very sacred, and he treasured it so much that he had it redecorated several times. But as everyone knows, Father wasn't a devout believer, so much so that he loved black magic. I've never heard of him coming here to offer his prayers to God." "...As far as I know, the Master has never come here. We even call this the 'forbidden chapel'... umm, I thought it was eerie, like a haunted house." "Even if Father never approached it himself, for some reason, he made the servants clean it several times a year. It felt like he kept it clean all the time so that it could be used at any time." "And even so, it's called the 'forbidden chapel'... Ihihi! It may be indiscreet, but doesn't it have an interesting ring to it? Doctor Nanjo, you're an old friend of Grandfather's, right? Have you heard anything about that?" "...I have heard about it long ago, but I forgot what he said to evade the issue. That's right, didn't he say something like...someday, he too might be able to receive a blessing there. But unless a miracle occurred, that day would never come." "What does that mean? What would he do in the chapel? He couldn't mean his own funeral, right?" "I wouldn't believe that of Kinzo-san. He was a man much more focused on the living now rather than things after death. However, it does seems that this was the root of all the complexity in the inheritance problem." "Then what would he do in the chapel? Pray? Aren't confessions done in the chapel? Anyways, it sounds suspicious." "...I don't know why, but just as Doctor Nanjo said, in Grandfather's eyes, it seems that since this chapel was constructed, it was decided by fate that he wouldn't receive a blessing unless a miracle occurred." "How do you know that...?" "See, it's clearly written over there. Look, over there." It looked like some message had been written there in English. The rust showed that the message had been written there since construction.  "...My English sucks. What is it...? ...<This door is>... <opened>... <only at>... <probability of>...?? Sorry, my English sucks."I gave up after I was unable to finish reading the first of the two lines. It looked like the others could read it properly. "...Umm, I think it went 'm', 'b', 't', 'q', so, umm, umm... how many did that mean, I think... umm... umm... Anyways, this is incredible. You can't even count close to that with all the fingers on both hands. It really would be impossible unless a miracle occurred." "...Certainly. He wanted to give a spectacular gambling-style example, very much like how Kinzo-san used to talk." "What is it, what is it, can everyone read it? Someone tell me what it means too." "Kihihihihihihi. At least learn English. How did you get into high school without even being able to read this much? Kihihihihihihihihihi. "Ouch. Ouchouchouch." "Mind your own business. So, what's written there?" "...It means something like this. 'This door is opened only when a miracle occurs. You will be blessed only when a miracle occurs'." "...Grandfather's magic is based on astronomically low probabilities. In other words, the miracle that would open this door, would probably require an incredibly vast magical power. Kihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihi." "Ouch." "Ni-ce job, you can shut up now. Rosa-san, will you let me take Maria with me to English class? Looks like it's useless to try and learn English unless you start when you're young after all." "...The forbidden chapel. Whether or not the witch Beatrice really was a witch, it is whispered that she actually existed several decades ago, and was Grandfather's mistress." "This is, umm, just my imagination, but... perhaps the Master really did truly love Beatrice-sama. However, he was already married, so they couldn't be united." "...I see. If Beatrice was dead, and could be revived with the magic of a miracle, now that Grandmother is dead, he could marry her with his head held high. And if they married in this chapel, could it be a fairy-tale story like that?" "...I don't think that story is so preposterous. It is a well known fact that Father still loves Beatrice deeply. Also, even though I said it was creepy, I get the feeling that the interior of the chapel used to be quite magnificent. The thought that Father built this chapel in the hopes of having a wedding with his dead mistress, actually might not be that unlikely." "...By the time he built this chapel, Grandfather probably knew that he would never use it as a church as long as he lived. But, he prayed for the witch to be revived by some miracle. And he thought that if that miracle occurred, they could be married here..." "...I see. If you think of it that way, this would be a place of utmost significance to Beatrice-sama as well... And he knew it was a chapel never to be opened. A story of sad love."Even though Gohda-san's body was even bigger than mine, his words were touching. Everyone was silent, but it seemed that they agreed with that view. "Even though he knew it was a chapel not to be opened, he still probably dreamed of the day that a miracle would occur. Kinzo-san was very romantic in his younger days. I feel as though I understand him." "Ihihi. I wonder. But you all came in four times a year to clean it, right? What do you mean, forbidden? Didn't we just go in ourselves? That wasn't a miracle or anything. We brought the key, clunk, and we're in. That's all that happened, this is ridiculous." BGM: None "Wh, what are you talking about...?"I'd thought I had just been messing around because I hadn't liked the atmosphere of that story. But then Aunt Rosa suddenly jumped on me, with a really serious face. Aunt Rosa's face grew increasingly pale. She looked at the magic circle on the door, then at her hand, back and forth, back and forth. "Wh... what has happened, Rosa-sama...?" BGM: Mind "...Huh? ..." "...Kihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihi. It took everyone too long to figure it out. Kihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihi..."...When a kid pulls a prank, it sometimes goes unnoticed by the adults, and the kid who did it loses heart. If one of those pranks catches someone later on, it makes that kid really happy. Maria's celebration just now looked a lot like that... "...Y... yeah, yes. There was only one of those keys. It's the key to the Master's treasured chapel, so there is only one, with no duplicates. It is normally kept safe in the key box in the servants' room, but..." "That's right. And Genji-san said that it had gone missing... So someone stole it... put it in that envelope and handed it to Maria?! And yesterday!" "...What the...? So in other words... isn't that strange?" "...That's absurd. This story is getting strange." "Wh, what could this be...? I don't have a clue what you're talking about..." "Me too. Would you explain it for us...?"...Gohda and Nanjo's failure to understand definitely wasn't because they were stupid.  "There's no mistake! It was closed!! I opened it!! Definitely!!"Aunt Rosa kept closing the door, locking it, pulling on it to check the lock, and opening it again. Her face was becoming pale again... "Until I took the key out of Maria's envelope and opened this door, it was definitely locked!! But this key was in the envelope and in Maria's care, right?! And that happened yesterday before noon?!?!" "...What did you say..." "Isn't that... strange...?!" "It is. Maria received a unique key from a woman calling herself a witch midday yesterday. In other words, from midday yesterday until this morning, when Rosa-san unlocked the door, this chapel was a closed room." "...How did they get those six people in here, and then how did they kill them?!" ...That had all been a worthless problem! From midday yesterday until this morning, this chapel was a closed room. But our parents had been with us until last night. How had the culprit opened this door?! And how had they closed it?!  BGM: Golden Sneer  "If you tell me to show you how I open locks with my power, then I can show you. But that will not make you surrender." "This 'explanation with humans' you talk about! The time that theory is exhausted will be the time of my victory!! Come now, how will you destroy it? If it was a human, what trick could they have used to defeat it, hmm~?" "It's just like the closed rooms last time. Not enough information!! It's impossible to reason like this! Any excuse could be made, any trick could work!! Guessing is useless!" "Ha! That again? There's no proof so you'll wait and see? The information is uncertain so it's impossible to reason...? Ha, this is always the excuse you humans use when you stop thinking. What is this pretense, you lowly human?!" "Are you saying that unless you're like Laplace's demon, you can't even think, you incompetent fool?!! And you speak as though a lack of information is disadvantageous to you, when it's actually the complete opposite, you see?" "The more information you're given, the more it will pain you! It will only cause the strength of the compressor squeezing you to increase! *cackle*cackle*cackle*cackle*cackle*!!" "Oh, in that case, let me say this. It's impossible to verify that this is a closed room in the first place!! If we're talking about demons, let me say this." "...It's possible to prove that this isn't a closed room. Just showing that someone can go in or out like this is enough!" "But it is impossible to prove that this is a closed room!! You can't deny the endless set of methods of getting in. In other words, this is one of those Devil's Proofs!! This definition of a closed room really is impossible to prove!!" "So, after you stop thinking with a lack of information as an excuse, this is what comes next. Oh well. If that is your move, then I will accept it. Continue." "First off, it looks like you're trying to say that the chapel is a closed room. Just a short while ago, I really did spend some time looking around in there, and I couldn't find any way in or out except for the door. "If there was a 'hidden door' or something that I wasn't able to find, your premise is completely blown away!! In other words, whether I was able to find a hidden door or not, you can never deny that there was some method X by which the closed room could be entered!" "And this method X could be carried out without magic. After all, it's a 'hidden door'! I'm sure that in this chapel, there's some hidden door that's impossible to find. So there's no reason for me to guess, because magic is impossible!!" "...Hohoh, so you use that reasoning. *cackle*cackle*, how naive. An expected move. Let me make my move in response. I always thought the idea of 'closed rooms' in worthless human detective novels was ridiculous." "Why? Because they're used the wrong way. When a closed room appears in a detective novel, do you really think that is a closed room? You don't, do you?!" "What trick did they use to make this look like a closed room! That's what you think. In other words, there hasn't been a completed one in the century's worth of closed room murders which humans have piled up!!" "Oooh!! Don't say that, mystery fans are pretty scary! Christie is probably grinding her teeth in her grave!" "For the Devil's Proof, all you had to do was bring someone a demon to prove it, right? Well that's convenient, as a witch, demons are my good friends, I'll bring as many as you like!!" "Sounds great!! 'Dad and the rest used a hidden door to enter the chapel, or were carried in through it'! How do you plan to beat this move?!" "With this. Regardless of whether they were living or dead, 'the six people definitely entered through the door'!!" "Huh?!?! Dumbass!! The door was locked, how'd they do it?!!" "I opened it with magic, and invited them inside!!" "That can't be true!! Since I can't accept magic, there's no way I'll accept that!! You're lying!! That door can open with some trick. Or maybe there's a hidden door, but I won't accept any other way!!"  Video: Red "...In most games, this would be decided as a draw, but that would terribly dampen the interest of this game!! We will have no draws. You will either accept and submit to me, or deny me!!" "At least I agree with you there!! We'll settle this without fail, just as you wish!!" BGM: Organ Short #600 Million in C Minor "A new rule?! I'll bet it's a rule that'll give you an advantage, right?!" "Of course not. I will give to all of you that which you couldn't stop demanding. The reason that you incompetent fools always stop thinking in grief is a 'lack of information'! And if I then give you information about that, next you start doubting whether the information is true or not, 'denying the basis'!" "Isn't that convenient? That really is a clever little phrase to shelve your incompetence. I shall eliminate that convenient excuse. You should thank me, *cackle*!" "You said they entered through the door, and I said that couldn't happen. Are you saying that's an evasive answer?" A moment, if you please, to address this update to the game's rules. As Beatrice suggests, all statements in red can be guaranteed to be true. However, regrettably the format of this LP does not permit colored text to be used. So, when I wish to indicate red, I will instead use bold, fixed text. Thank you for cooperating with this compromise. Furthermore, this should go without saying, but if the audience wishes to use the same convention, you are forbidden from using red for any reason other than to repeat red given to you by the game. If you were to use this formatting to say whatever you want, it would surely disrupt the flow of the game and cause total pandemonium. Back to you, Battler. "Wh, what is this...?! Keep explaining!" "No matter what magic move I use, you can always keep running away by repeating 'lack of information' and 'denying the basis." "...Even though I would still win in the end that way, it would be extremely boring. Because of that, I think I'll give you that 'information' and 'basis' that you want." "However, you'll probably doubt each word I say. That isn't bad in itself. I also will use every possible move to make you submit. I don't dislike our posture of searching out the best moves for ourselves." "...But that won't make a game. So I set up this rule." "Everything I speak in red is the truth! There's absolutely no need to doubt it!" "Are you telling me to believe that...?!" "This is a game between you and me. In a game, the rules are sacred!! Those who take that lightly are not qualified to play!!" "Alright, I got it, I'll accept that rule!! Even an elementary school kid can get into an endless argument and find fault with everything. Then let's restart right now, and continue where we left off. I'll repeat it again. 'Dad and the rest used a hidden door to enter the chapel, or were carried in through it'!" "...I, is there any proof?!" "<Stop>!! I will supplement the rule. When I speak the truth, I will use red, and when I do, I do not bear the responsibility of establishing that by showing proof! It is simply a fact and the truth!!" "The reason is simple. I carried out all of the crimes with magic. So for any impossible crime, all I have to do is wave my magic staff before your eyes." "But that wouldn't make a game! It would be like the barbarism of ignoring victory and defeat in a chess game and punching your opponent!" "W... well, that is true. If you were a witch, there'd be no need for you to show proof. Because you could do anything with magic, it'd be pretty horrible... What an unfair game...!" "So shall we resume once more? Six people definitely entered through the door. I unlocked it with magic. How will you defeat this magic, this closed room?!" "...Th, the key! Genji-san and the others said there was only one key, but that's impossible to prove! The culprit secretly made a duplicate key...!" "Arg... Th, then what about this. The culprit made something other than a legitimate key and opened it! I don't know what, but maybe a wire! A tool for picking locks!!" "What is this naive move? It is impossible to unlock the lock to the chapel without the chapel's key!! Although it can be opened with the power of magic, right...?" "Then what about this!! There's something wrong with the door itself! Even while it is locked, there was some way to pass through it...! As to what that is, I can think of a few ways! Maybe like on the big doors to a castle which have a smaller door on them, there was another door here! It's also possible that they removed the hinges, and then removed the whole door before entering!!" "Wahahahahahahahahahaha! Is this the intelligence of a hundred years of humanity, Battleeeeeeer?! When the door to the chapel is locked, it prevents any and all methods of entry or exit!! As long as you can't use magic, right...? *cackle*! Is it about time for checkmate?!" "Not even close!! You said that the six people entered through a door, but you didn't say it was the front door! They might have entered through another secret door!!" "You talk too much, you incompetent fool. Then let me advance more on my earlier move. The six people definitely entered through this front door!!" "That's screwed up!! The door was locked, it was impossible to unlock without using that single key, and yet six people entered through this door?!?! How did they do it?!! Magic, you say?! drat it, drat it drat it drat it drat it drat it!!!" "Wahahahahahahaaah!! Have we already exposed a human's limits?" "Then shout that you resign!! When someone gives up and shouts that, it is customary for the king to be defeated. Come on, do you give up?! Then proclaim your submission, and kneel so that your king is defeated!!" ...drat iiiiiiiiit... It's no good, no good, no good... So I can't win against the witch...?! This isn't chess at all, I've just been made to take the losing side in a chess problem...! Is quibbling about details and getting a draw the best I can do...? "That definitely won't happen...! Will I surrender, or will you?!! There will be no resolution other than those!! What happened to that bravery when you said this would be torture for us both?!" "Oioioioi, what a let down, isn't that disappointiiiiiiing? Ushiromiya Battleeeeeeeeeeer...????"drat iiiiiiiiiiiit, what should I do, what should I do?!! I can see it, I can see the place where I'll face checkmate...!! Aaaaaaaaah, it's no good it's no goddamn good, all of my hard fought moves are nothing more than desperately moving my king, running away from check. No matter how many times I move, I can't escape from check. So even without waiting for the next several moves, I can see mate in my future!! Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhh, drat iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit...!! After a few more moves, ...I can see where I'll face, ...checkmate...? ...Don't give up, Ushiromiya Battler. If I can see myself getting closed in upon... Then if I turn the chessboard over... I can anticipate the next move, right...? Kyrie-san told me... When considering something, the closer you get to the very, very end, the easier it becomes to anticipate. 
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Nov 6, 2016 12:24
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ProfessorProf posted:Furthermore, this should go without saying, but if the audience wishes to use the same convention,[/i] you are forbidden from using red for any reason other than to repeat red given to you by the game. [i]If you were to use this formatting to say whatever you want, it would surely disrupt the flow of the game and cause total pandemonium. The sky is green
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Nov 6, 2016 13:13
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Interesting., but at least now we've got concrete information we can use to reason. Before we could claim unreliable narrator or that we were being lied to in some way. I actually saw the clip of this from the anime a little before this LP went up, so I'm going to stay out of this discussion since I know the answer. But I look forward to banging my head against the future ones until I give up too.
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Nov 6, 2016 13:23
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This game is the last I would expect to make a Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy reference. And Kinzo would be the last character I'd think would be the one making it.
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Nov 6, 2016 13:25
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So, a new weft in the games rules, and an extremely welcome one at that; I too have a lot of issues with how these scenarios are represented and the back and forth that can happen when there's no real platform of truth to stand on. Battler may not trust the red rule, but sadistic rear end in a top hat that Beatrice is, I don't think she'll break this rule. There's her genuine love of games to consider, but beyond that, there's nothing more a devil likes than using scripture for his purposes. And while we're on the subject, Beatrice might be an awful troll, but it's kinda hard not to see her point when she cackles at Butler about his incompetence. It's not only that he's thick, it's that he's uncreative; he does frequently go back to the same wells again and again ("Hidden doors! Faked keys! Chessboards!") and although he's right when he says there's no proof that they aren't there, he also doesn't have any proof they are. So his clinging to the belief that they are is little different from Maria or Kinzo clinging to their belief of magic or witches, ironically, and it sets him in an argumentative rut in which progress cant be made because certain things have to be true "because THEY JUST ARE, OK!?" In this very thread we had a perfectly reasonable explanation as to how the chapel could be opened after handing Maria the envelope: the original envelope Beatrice gave to Maria didn't have the key in there, allowing her to open the chapel as she likes, and then just switched the keys when she was sleeping before Rosa collected it. That would allow whoever committed the murder plenty of time in which to create a Murder Scene going in and out of the Chapel at their leisure, whilst creating the illusion that Maria had the key all along. But Battler hasn't even considered that yet because because he's too hung up on the door (and has an unfortunate tendency to dismiss Maria in his mind due to her creepiness and the unfortunate tendency of some people to discount what young children say because they're kids and are not supposed to know poo poo). It is a little bit frustrating, so I'm glad that this effort is made by the witch, even if it is just another attempt at breaking Battler.
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Nov 6, 2016 13:41
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Almost forgot! Clean diagram for the Chapel:
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Nov 6, 2016 13:43
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Having followed the last LP I knew about the Red and it's a very welcome thing.
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Nov 6, 2016 19:41
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JohnOfOrdo3 posted:Interesting., but at least now we've got concrete information we can use to reason. Before we could claim unreliable narrator or that we were being lied to in some way. I actually saw the clip of this from the anime a little before this LP went up, so I'm going to stay out of this discussion since I know the answer. But I look forward to banging my head against the future ones until I give up too. Yeah, red text exists solely to give a source credibility, from my view of things. We've been presented another tool - someone speaking in red is a reliable, if imperfect, narrator. After all, everything we've seen in red thus far can be taken as the truth, but also has its own loopholes that have to be closed by more red text in order to keep going. For example: Not only does this present the option of them being dead before they entered, it also doesn't say when they entered, or what door was entered, just "the door". Beatrice even has to red-text that it was the front door after, to clarify. And that actually gives a flow to the game, a back and forth that actually shows progress once Battler gets his head out of his rear end - he presents a loophole, Beatrice has to redtext in such a way to close it, which could open further loopholes. Thesaya posted:This game is the last I would expect to make a Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy reference. And Kinzo would be the last character I'd think would be the one making it. Well, I mean, we've already established that Kinzo is a bit of a westaboo who keeps his collection of GRIMOIRES, NOT BOOKS, GEEZ under lock and key. He also seems to be the type who would fully buy into the idea that flight is a matter of throwing yourself at the ground and missing.
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Nov 6, 2016 20:46
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Jeabus Mahogany posted:The sky is green Mods?!?
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Nov 6, 2016 22:37
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There's only a problem here if you absolutely need the key to lock the door. I mean, the place is only visited every three months or so.
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Nov 6, 2016 22:40
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I have an idea of how they opened the door: same way Rosa did, by stealing the key from Maria. I honestly don't really know when it happened, but Beatrice stole the key (again), unlocked the door, did her thing, and afterwards, returned the key. And before anyone says anything about breaking the seal on the letter, remember that Beatrice has a supply of official Ushiromiya letters and an official seal, so she could have just put the key in a new letter, and snuck it back into Maria's purse. Anyone want to argue or augment this idea?
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Nov 6, 2016 23:23
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I really feel that Maria's letter held a key-shaped weight (hell, it could have been a key for another door!), and the envelopes were switched after the fact. Alternatively, since they're sealed with wax it is possible for an individual to open it without obviously breaking the seal, and the contents themselves were swapped... But that seems a bit too complex for this; that set-up took time, after all. No time for opening and reclosing wax seals. e: Also I've been waiting for the red to appear. Adds some much-needed info and interesting loopholes to the mix~
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Nov 7, 2016 00:16
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Like Clockwork posted:I really feel that Maria's letter held a key-shaped weight (hell, it could have been a key for another door!), and the envelopes were switched after the fact. Maria's letter could not have had a fake key in it. As Rosa just went and took it from the envelope.
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Nov 7, 2016 01:43
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Man, I am so glad Red Truth is finally a thing. Of all the things that have been hard to avoid discussing in this thread, this was probably the hardest. Umineko isn't interactive, but in many ways it is more of a game than other COYA style VNs. The game has directly challenged you, the player, the solve the riddles of the island. Now that the challenge is met, the game is pushing back with new rules. Previously, you've been able to make all kinds of assertions about how something might be done with a human culprit. How confident will you be, I wonder, when the witch can dismantle your ideas with a few simple words. It's ok. When you get to the end you will have love and know that Beatrice 'exists.'
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Nov 7, 2016 02:51
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Honestly I welcome this new mechanic. It makes it easier to see where Beatrice is coming from and reveals how wordplay can be used to mislead the readers plainly. Also I agree with resurgam40, this is really showing how uncreative Battler is. Though if he started off at the top of his game there would be no mystery to solve. I am tempted to say where Beatrice is trying to mislead the reader with this reassurance that this locked room definitely only unlockable with magic as the key was accounted for in Maria's envelope. And while the envelope swapping is definitely still a thing that could happen, I believe the misdirection is assuming that the door was locked at the time. I'm sorry I'm so suspicious of Genji again. But he promises he tried the door and that it was locked, but it could be simply unlocked the whole evening couldn't it? Also if we view the timing of the event... Maria was handed the envelope, presumably with the ONLY key to the chapel BEFORE the parents met up with Beatrice in the chapel before the roulette started. If that is the case than Rosa is a witness to how Beatrice was able to open up the front door of the chapel, because the envelope was in Maria's possession in the guest house no? Even if Rosa wasn't a witness to any magic opening the locked door then it must have been left unlocked overnight, because the key was sealed away. This either further implicates Rosa in the manipulation of the envelope and key to the chapel, or at least suggests she knows something that she doesn't realize yet right? The other Red, as another poster indicated, the one about people passing through the front door threshold dead or alive. They all technically had passed through to meet up with Beatrice the night before. Therefore that statement couldn't be untruthful even if the killer had placed the bodies in the chapel through some alternate route. I dunno, I could be missing something obvious or have misread something though.
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Nov 7, 2016 06:00
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It seems to me that the most logical question to ask would be "Was the key in the envelope Maria had the entire time?" It's possible Beatrice put something similar in size and weight in the envelope she gave Maria in the rose garden, then returned after the murders and switched the first envelope to the one with the key.
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Nov 7, 2016 06:56
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I remember Maria complaining when Rosa took her letter away that "it's the invitation to the Golden Land" or whatever it's called, it begs questioning whether Maria had opened and read the letter already or if she was just assuming it's some sort of invitation.
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Nov 7, 2016 07:01
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Fabulousvillain posted:I remember Maria complaining when Rosa took her letter away that "it's the invitation to the Golden Land" or whatever it's called, it begs questioning whether Maria had opened and read the letter already or if she was just assuming it's some sort of invitation. Maria never opened it because she knew that inside it would only be a letter from her idol Beatrice saying "lol practice your witchcraft better, n00b," and she wanted to keep her faith alive because it's the only thing keeping her going.
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Nov 7, 2016 09:12
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Toalpaz posted:I am tempted to say where Beatrice is trying to mislead the reader with this reassurance that this locked room definitely only unlockable with magic as the key was accounted for in Maria's envelope. And while the envelope swapping is definitely still a thing that could happen, I believe the misdirection is assuming that the door was locked at the time. I'm sorry I'm so suspicious of Genji again. But he promises he tried the door and that it was locked, but it could be simply unlocked the whole evening couldn't it? Beatrice doesn't assure the reader that the locked room was only unlockable with magic. Actually, she's quite explicit that the locked room is impossible to unlock with magic: "It is impossible to unlock the lock to the chapel without the chapel's key!!" and "When the door to the chapel is locked, it prevents any and all methods of entry or exit!!". Not "impossible to unlock without either the chapel's key or magic". Of course she then says it could be opened with magic... but she doesn't say that in red. It's misdirection. Same with the methods of entry or exit - "prevents any and all methods of entry or exit" includes magic. As for the misdirection about the door being locked at the time: that's a good point. Even without the easy answer that someone either took the key from Maria and then put it back or swapped envelopes, they could have unlocked the chapel before giving the key to Maria - we have in red text that the chapel can't be unlocked without the key, but perhaps it could be locked without the key. The red text definitely adds some interesting stuff to this. On the other hand, accepting the red text is kind of tautological - you can only believe the red text is actually true if you believe that the red text is true. But if we don't accept that then the mystery kind of breaks so we'll just do it.
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Nov 7, 2016 10:25
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 Video: Human Trick "...What happened? You grew silent all of a sudden. Don't worry. Surrender is but a momentary shame. All that's left is the joy of giving in... *cackle*cackle*cackle*cackle*!! Come on, cry out in resignation. Can you hear me? Say it clearly in a loud voice." BGM: Scar Sound "...Hoh. Very well. It is your turn, after all. *cackle*cackle*" "I was making the mistake of thinking that this rule you made was your own weapon. However, I've realized that it can also become a weapon for me. It all comes down to this." "Try it." "I've spent the whole time focused on how they entered the closed room of the chapel... That way of thinking was no good. Aaah, it's no good, it's no goddamn good at all... Flip over the chessboard." "...That's right. The direction of my thinking was backwards. This is how I should think. How was the chapel, which wasn't a closed room in the first place, made to look like a closed room?" "Here it is. The thinking technique that humans have given birth to after a century. Give it a try, *cackle*cackle*!!" "...Say this in red for me. If it's impossible, then refuse. Here I go." "I understand that the only way to enter the chapel is through the door, and that there was only one key. But hold it right there... Was that key really handed over to Maria yesterday before noon?" "...That's quite long. Summarize it." "It's something like this. We've been under the impression that since midday yesterday, the key was unusable. Therefore, we've been under the impression that this was a closed room from midday yesterday until this morning!" "I want you to clearly state that this isn't just an impression, but a fact." "Interesting. So you reason not about the door, but the key." "Yesterday, Maria received an envelope from you. Maria didn't open it, but she might have felt it and known there was key inside. But there's no way she could be sure it was definitely the key to the chapel." "...So this is what it means. There was a fake inside the envelope that was handed to Maria." "Heheh... I know that much. I'll continue. So, when Maria received the envelope, inside it, was there definitely that same key to the chapel?" "...Hoh." "In other words, it's something like this. Midday yesterday, you gave Maria an envelope with a key inside. And you told her that she must not open it. Maria probably realized that there was a key inside." "And because later on, Aunt Rosa used what was inside the envelope to open the door to the chapel, we thought that was the key to the chapel. This is the suspicious part!" "...So is this what you are trying to say? That when I entrusted Maria with a key, that key was a fake? And then, by the time Rosa obtained it, it had been switched with the real thing...?" "Yeah, that's it. What's wrong, Beatrice-sama? Looks like you haven't been feeling good for a while...?" "It's your turn, Beato. <Turn of the golden witch!> Show me how you defeat that." "...Very well. The key to the chapel truly was the object inside the envelope I gave Maria." "I'll chase you. Can you repeat it in red? 'That envelope was completely under Maria's supervision until Aunt Rosa opened it'." "..." "...If it's impossible, then state that you refuse. Check." "Now I've turned it over with just one move. Now it's time for your king to run, Beato." "...Fu, I have a reason for refusing. That is regarding the definition of the phrase 'under her supervision'. In its purest meaning, Maria would need to have her eyes on it around the clock." "...But Maria didn't go that far. It was probably completely under her supervision during the time she had it outside of her handbag, but after she put it into her handbag, it disappeared from her field of vision. It's just that the phrase 'under her supervision' is inappropriate in that sense, so I couldn't use red... ku..." "...That was probably a painful move. Your face tells me that you've guessed the next one." "...Repeat it for me in red, if you can say it, try saying it. 'No one was able to touch Maria's handbag until Aunt Rosa took out the envelope'." "...I will also... refuse this. I won't explain the reason." "That's wrong. It's not that you won't explain, it's that you can't explain it. With this move, have we reached checkmate...?" "...Ku..." BGM: Dread of the Grave "...However! Maria didn't have the handbag under her complete supervision! There's no need for magic. It's a closed room trick that's possible for a human!" "You can't deny the possibility that during that time, the culprit took the key from Maria's handbag, used it, and returned it by morning!! Can you say it in red?!" "N... not yet. I remove the check... The envelope with the key in it should have been sealed with wax...! Rosa took it from an unopened envelope..." "Really, then try saying it!! Repetition requested!! 'The envelope handed over midday yesterday and the envelope that Aunt Rosa opened are the same thing'."  "...Haah...! Aaaaah, it's no good, it's no goddamn good at all. That probably doesn't matter anymore. I expected that. I thought that if you had resigned here, you might be pretty good at reading between the lines. So I'm disappointed. You've betrayed my expectations." "Wh, wha... aat...!!" "...Ku... kuuuuuuu..." "This time, it's all over, Golden Witch. It's a real checkmate. ...I'll ask one more time, repetition requested!! If you can say it, try saying it!" ...Ku... how...! How... c, could I... to a lowly human...!!" "I'll keep on saying it, Beatrice!!! Repetition requested!! 'The key to the chapel inside the envelope Maria received wasn't used even once until Aunt Rosa opened the envelope'!!" "...ooh, ku... ooooooooooooooooooooooooooohhh!!!"   "This is a trick with a cheap loophole, the assumption that the key wasn't used because the sealing wax wasn't opened!!" "Checkmate!! There's no magic, it's nothing more than a trick that's possible for humans!!" "I, in that case... who do you say stole the key?! Try answering! This time, you try repeating it...!!" "That's right, I'm making you repeat things all the time. I probably have to answer every once in a while... "I've smashed your closed room with something possible even for humans. However, I won't specifically investigate who the culprit is." "Because I believe humans!! Because I definitely won't accept that there's a person among us who would steal the key from Maria, use it, and do something so horrible!!" "Fu, fufufufufufuhahahahahahahaha!!! I give up, I resign! Just once, for this board, I'll give up. But, you really are naive, Battler." "Parting remarks are a loser's privilege. Say as many as you want." "...Ku...! Since you continue to deny my existence, you will eventually be cornered..." "After all, since you deny me, you will have to suspect those relatives that you can't stop loving...! In the last moment, when you have to suspect one who is beloved to you, then you will definitely accept my existence...!!" 
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Nov 7, 2016 14:03
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Congratulations on staying a step ahead of Battler on your first true battle, thread! For a reward, have a solution diagram.
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Nov 7, 2016 14:05
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The red is going to be the crux of all the mysteries from here on out, isn't it? It's nice to have something absolute to rely on, but it kind of kills the fun of looking for clues in the narrative if we're just going to be spoon-fed the truths we need. Anyway, presenting the red here is an interesting choice. By giving us this to rely on, Beatrice almost seems to be implying that we can't trust what we see on the gameboard. What does this mean for the first game, then, where the red wasn't present? Were some of the scenes from that game just as unreliable as the magic battle we saw in Jessica's room?
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Nov 7, 2016 14:56
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vector_to posted:The red is going to be the crux of all the mysteries from here on out, isn't it? It's nice to have something absolute to rely on, but it kind of kills the fun of looking for clues in the narrative if we're just going to be spoon-fed the truths we need. The other problem with the bit wit Jessica is: Battler didn't comment on it whatsoever, and with his dogged skepticism, I think he'd have something to say about goat-men with laser swords out of loving nowhere. So does that mean Beatrice didn't tell him about it, and is sticking with Battler's perspective anyway? Because if she really wanted to prove magic, why doesn't she bust out the lightsabers first thing? But woo, go us, for being smarter than a highschooler!  I'd like to take credit for that, but I think it was Qrr who mentioned that first, making him/her the MVP of this round.
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Nov 7, 2016 15:44
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resurgam40 posted:Because if she really wanted to prove magic, why doesn't she bust out the lightsabers first thing? Because everybody who saw (except Beato, who has her own reasons for making poo poo up) it is, effectively, dead. It's a flourish, an overdramatization that can neither be proven nor disproven - like one of the cheap parlor tricks mentioned earlier in the thread. It's not meant to be true, it's meant to distract from the original closed room murders since honestly, literally anyone could have killed Jessica and Kanon, theirs wasn't a closed room by any means. But with lightsabers and beefy goatmen and stake-person schoolgirls, you lose track of the fact that it was just two kids getting shanked without any sort of mystery to it.
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Nov 7, 2016 15:49
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The best part of this update is that I no longer have to try and avoid calling Meta-Beatrice Beato by mistake.
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Nov 7, 2016 16:16
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Fabulousvillain posted:I remember Maria complaining when Rosa took her letter away that "it's the invitation to the Golden Land" or whatever it's called, it begs questioning whether Maria had opened and read the letter already or if she was just assuming it's some sort of invitation. She's just repeating what Beatrice told her when she gave her the envelope. ProfessorProf posted:The witch pulled a western envelope from her pocket and gave it to Maria. However, when Maria made to open it, the witch stopped her.
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Nov 7, 2016 17:03
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oath2order posted:The best part of this update is that I no longer have to try and avoid calling Meta-Beatrice Beato by mistake.  Beato is the best.
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Nov 7, 2016 18:45
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All y'all talking poo poo about Battler had best watch yourself, because he's stepping up to the plate in earnest now. (...Beato is also great, though)
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Nov 7, 2016 20:43
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KataraniSword posted:Because everybody who saw (except Beato, who has her own reasons for making poo poo up) it is, effectively, dead. It's a flourish, an overdramatization that can neither be proven nor disproven - like one of the cheap parlor tricks mentioned earlier in the thread. I don't like that as an answer for what happened. If we're just going to say "this scene didn't really happen because no one there survived", it causes a lot of problems. Unreliable narrator is bad for mystery. People lying is totally fine, but if the things we see aren't really happening (in story) then the whole thing becomes kind of pointless.
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Nov 7, 2016 20:59
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Well we know the Red is true. And I think we can trust most things that don't involve blatant magic stuff.
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Nov 7, 2016 21:28
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MonsterEnvy posted:Well we know the Red is true. And I think we can trust most things that don't involve blatant magic stuff. If we say "we can trust everything we see except for things that don't match our preconceived notions", then we're being as aggressively ignorant as Battler. Basically, if we're going to come up with an explanation for what's going on then it has to cover goat lightsabers. Now it could cover that by saying "that didnt really happen", but you need a better criteria for determine what did and did not happen than "the things I don't think happened didn't happen", which is not useful. Also, at least Beatrice seems to think that one of the rules of magic is that aggressive ignorance has an effect on it, given her interactions with Battler. Which is not unusual for magic but is really annoying. Qrr fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Nov 7, 2016 |
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Nov 7, 2016 22:16
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Qrr posted:If we say "we can trust everything we see except for things that don't match our preconceived notions", then we're being as aggressively ignorant as Battler. Yes, this is absolutely correct. Kanon died after heroically defending Milady's life against a giant goat demon with a Laser Sword. You all saw it!
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Nov 7, 2016 22:21
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I feel good about being right. Well, mostly right. Get hosed, Beato.
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Nov 7, 2016 22:22
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Generally, if no other character reacts with knowledge of an unbelievable event, then I'd err on the side of disbelief. For example, Rosa supposedly saw the proof that Beatrice is a witch, but has not shown any behavior that would be informed or altered by such knowledge. Basically, we have to try to understand events that we are shown by indirect means. Additionally, the set-up seems to be that Beatrice is providing the vision of the events, so she is presumably the narrator, and someone who we know to have a distinct bias.
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Nov 7, 2016 22:29
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I'm surprised nobody pointed it out yet... ... but did you know Phoenix Wright was pretty big when Umineko came out?
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Nov 7, 2016 22:30
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oath2order posted:Yes, this is absolutely correct. That's ridiculous. Obviously it was a very large chimp with a goat mask. Goatmen aren't real!
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Nov 7, 2016 22:43
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Ottumon posted:That's ridiculous. Obviously it was a very large chimp with a goat mask. Goatmen aren't real! I don't believe we have a Red Truth confirming Beatrice is not 3 chimpanzees stacked on top of each other wearing a ball room gown.
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Nov 7, 2016 23:04
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