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RandomPauI posted:The cops can treat being shot at by something as if they were getting shot at. So why can't civilians say they were being shot at, implicitly by bullets, if a cop literally shot a bullet at them? quote:We're not going to agree on this and it's a derail to the main point that the police used force against someone who was not a threat to the police. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 6, 2016 16:41
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rudatron posted:Conversely, any impact on economic growth is going to throw people out of work, who feasibly cannot be placed back into the economy for many years, or maybe even ever. Any impediment to economic growth is now an existential threat to the stability of the social system and, therefore, carries with it the threat of an incredible amount of human suffering. So? This pipeline being not built won't impact economic growth one way or another so it's irrelevant. quote:The only way out is 'through', and the only way 'through' is ruthless materialism - 'thinking like an oil company'. Only applied to whatever goal you actually want. Have you ever considered taking the position that "oil=death" is in fact a calculated one? And that it might be the correct one?
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Nov 6, 2016 16:56
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rudatron posted:The only way out is 'through', and the only way 'through' is ruthless materialism - 'thinking like an oil company'. Only applied to whatever goal you actually want. It's ironic really, that corporations gained the rights of people which turned them essentially into immortal and superhuman entities, and now you're saying that the best way to deal with this issue is to have people turn themselves into corporations 
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Nov 6, 2016 17:06
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Tias posted:Can you tell us how bad it's gotten? Every day has claims of rubber bullets and demolished camp areas, but there's no real way to tell what's happening here on the outside. The Buffalo face an oncoming storm. 400 parts per million. The Oglala women poked holes in Custer's ears, because he would not listen. A Riot is the language of the unheard. Civilized Fishbot posted:Okay, but why not? If they'll always be able to sue for any damages, and there's no risk of construction destroying artifacts, why should they care? you can't eat money. Also, the people are not protesting because they're afraid grandma's corpse will be disturbed; they're protesting because Turtle Island is dying, and the entire culture around Fossil Fuels is a big part of it.
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Nov 6, 2016 22:19
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twodot posted:Actually we very directly agree here. We've both said that people commonly understand being shot to mean with normal bullets. You just also arguing that dishonesty is a thing people can do. Also what's with people arguing this point also saying it's a derail. If you truly think it's not important or not relevant why argue it? I don't recall saying people understand being shot at means with normal bullets. I did say that I'm applying the same standards to the police that the police would apply to themselves. And it's a derail because the bigger issue should be the police using force against someone who isn't threatening the police. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 6, 2016 22:33
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CommieGIR posted:I think there was also a couple cases where certain minerals were found on native land and they were "shuffled" around and treaties re-negotiated at gunpoint. Dorothy, one of the Oglala Elders (and a descendant of Fire Lightning), has spoken of Nixon's 'Breadbasket of the World', which opened up Uranium mining on her rez. She also mentions the Papal Bulls, the Doctrine of Discovery, and the IRA as things that need to be rescinded. 'America is built on stolen land', she says. I myself have come to reject the idea of land ownership (owing largely to Ambros Bierce, and his brilliant definition in The Devil's Dictionary), and (like the Lakota) recognize Occupation and Stewardship in lieu of Ownership. I myself am an Atheist; I believe in no gods. I am fascinated by the 'Out of Africa' narrative, and understanding the species that has come to inhabit this beautiful planet. Whenever I hear the Lakota (or other Native persons) use the word 'Sacred', I interpret it as meaning 'An Obligation for Stewardship.' Fire is Sacred - you don't leave it unattended, and you don't throw trash in it. Water is Sacred. Everything is Sacred. There's *no* ground that *isn't* Sacred. There were 500 Nations, when the white man arrived on Turtle Island. There was trading and commerce. There were about 20 million Buffalo, and roughly the same number of Lakota. I have three scenes to share with you: Dorothy's scene - A family of Lakota, living in Wind Cave, navigates in the dark. They come to find one of the passages to their camp has caved in, and they turn to look for a new path through. Joe's scene - A man, clad head to toe in ornate Buffalo, trudges through the plains in winter - snow halfway to his knees. He has two pack dogs, carrying his things, and in either hand he holds a buffalo horn full of hot coals - keeping his hands warm. He reaches his campsite, dumps the coals into the fire pit, and builds up a fire. Jacob's scene - A rider, bareback, gallops along next to a *massive* buffalo - a braided hemp bridle connects the horse's head to the rider's hands. The rider puts the reigns between his teeth, leans out /away/ from the buffalo, aims his short bow down his horse's nose, pulls his head back to pull on the reigns, signalling the horse to slow - and as the buffalo takes the lead, the rider looses his arrow (pushing the bow forward, /not/ drawing the bowstring back) which enters under the buffalo's shoulder blade, piercing the beast's heart - and the buffalo just /drops/. The Lakota were symbiotic with the Buffalo. The White Man murdered the Buffalo to take from them their way of life.
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Nov 6, 2016 23:32
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RandomPauI posted:I don't recall saying people understand being shot at means with normal bullets. I did say that I'm applying the same standards to the police that the police would apply to themselves. And it's a derail because the bigger issue should be the police using force against someone who isn't threatening the police. If it's a derail, why are you arguing the point?
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Nov 7, 2016 00:11
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twodot posted:You said "implicitly with bullets", I understood that to mean normal bullets. Are you arguing if I say "I shot them with bullets" people shouldn't make assumptions about the composition of the bullets? If only there was some part of "rubber bullets" that said whether they were bullets or not... Seriously a lot of people doing a lot of work to justify being a lot of stupid here.
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Nov 7, 2016 01:27
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The "Seventh Generation Prophesy" is something to consider, as well. The 'Seventh Generation' maps pretty neatly on to Millennials. There's a suicide-cult element here as a result, influenced largely by the legacies of Wounded Knee. edit: one of the sacred Chinupas was entrusted with the Youth Council. At the action last week, before the barricades were lit on fire, one of the leaders of the Youth Council was accosted, and his staff - with the Sacred Eagle Feather - fell to the ground. An eagle feather is not to touch the ground. The po-lice forced the young man to retrieve the staff, despite the sacrilege of it. edit2: I am, as I said, a /strong/ Atheist. I interpret 'Sacred' to mean 'An Obligation for Stewardship.' I had a powerful vision, after my first (and only, thus far) Sweat. But for all this talk of Sacred, I've not seen much superstition in the Lakota ways. For example, a Tipi is to be arranged so that the door faces the rising sun - but for the poetry of welcoming the sun, it's also /extremely/ functional. If you point the door of the tipi toward sunrise, the colder winds will be at your back. When the wind is at your back, you can have a fire in your tipi (like, holy poo poo, fire - safely - in a tent!) and the wind will carry the smoke away. If the wind is coming from the south/east, you put out the fire and close your flaps. I'm /terrified/ by the upcoming winter months. A tipi is the /ideal/ structure for this terrain. It's literally a Miracle - the origin myth tells of the White Buffalo Calf Woman gifting them the tech, and here that tech stands! I'm quite convinced it was invented by a woman, and that the woman in question was as brilliant as Leonardo Da Vinci. Uglycat fucked around with this message at 02:15 on Nov 7, 2016 |
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Nov 7, 2016 02:06
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twodot posted:You said "implicitly with bullets", I understood that to mean normal bullets. Are you arguing if I say "I shot them with bullets" people shouldn't make assumptions about the composition of the bullets? It means all bullets, full stop. The bullet part of a cartridge can be lead, rubber, plastic, depleted uranium. It is the part of a cartridge that's fired out of the gun. There are also shotgun shells which fire multiple pieces of shot per shell, there are beanbag rounds, and there are even arrows which are fired from sabots. In those three instances you're still being shot but the first two have to be done at close range and the latter wouldn't offer many advantages over a bullet. twodot posted:If it's a derail, why are you arguing the point? Because my gut feeling is you'd just use dropping the point as a sign that you won rather than a sign that I was sick of arguing the point.
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Nov 7, 2016 02:32
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Uglycat posted:Dorothy, one of the Oglala Elders (and a descendant of Fire Lightning), has spoken of Nixon's 'Breadbasket of the World', which opened up Uranium mining on her rez. Source your quotes.
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Nov 7, 2016 02:33
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This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
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RandomPauI posted:It means all bullets, full stop. The bullet part of a cartridge can be lead, rubber, plastic, depleted uranium. It is the part of a cartridge that's fired out of the gun.
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Nov 7, 2016 02:58
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twodot posted:Ok so I say "I will shoot you with a bullet", will you make any sort of assumption as to the composition of that bullet, or will you think maybe it's just a blank? Well, I won't assume it's a blank because a blank is primer and wadding in an otherwise empty cartridge. A bullet is the part of a live cartridge which gets shot out of the gun. The now empty or spent cartridge would then get ejected. If the woman got intentionally or accidentally hit by a live or a spent cartridge it wouldn't count as being shot because it was ejected. Edit: A friend just pointed out that there'd be some sort of seal too like a layer of wax or paper. Even then that wouldn't be a bullet. If you say bullet I'm going to assume bullet and that it has the potential to be fatal if it hits the right spot. RandomPauI fucked around with this message at 03:24 on Nov 7, 2016 |
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Nov 7, 2016 03:10
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Somehow this isn't the dumbest DnD gunchat.
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Nov 7, 2016 03:26
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EDIT: removed in compliance with mod direction
Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Nov 7, 2016 |
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Nov 7, 2016 03:34
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The police not using the maximum amount of force they could have used doesn't change the fact that potentially lethal force was used against someone who wasn't a threat to the police. If a cop hits me with a fist instead of a billy club it's still being hit. If I shoot at the cops with shotgun shells filled with rock salt instead of lead shot it's still shooting at the cops. Hell, rock salt wouldn't even be nearly as lethal as a less-lethal bullet and it'd still count as shooting at the cops. The act itself would be the main thing. This is a philosophical split that won't be bridged. I hold that a shot is a shot is a shot. Other people hold that different types of shots require different qualifiers. We're not going to agree on this.
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Nov 7, 2016 04:01
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Cops with paintball guns that'd be something to see.
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Nov 7, 2016 04:10
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Basically these people are incapable of using the scientific materialism of marxism-leninism thus they cannot form a coherent and effective popular movement.
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Nov 7, 2016 04:57
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i am harry posted:Cops with paintball guns that'd be something to see.    The balls the cops use are filled with pepper spray instead of paint.
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Nov 7, 2016 05:21
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Dead Reckoning posted:The balls the cops use are filled with pepper spray instead of paint. What a wonderful world.
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Nov 7, 2016 05:39
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Dead Reckoning posted:
They're also less lethal, rather than less than lethal, since they've certainly killed folks in the past. 
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Nov 7, 2016 18:28
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Dead Reckoning posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=280yPTyei0U Says the guy that wasn't shot. This is impressive semantic quibbling even for DnD. CharlestheHammer fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Nov 7, 2016 |
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Nov 7, 2016 18:48
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There's a clear antagonistic use of the word shot with no amplifying information. If someone came up to you and said "You have to come quick, your mother was shot" no reasonable person is to jump to "with a real bullet or a rubber bullet", they're just assuming how the word is used in 99% of cases. While it undoubtedly leads to a better (albeit biased) headline and I get that,I feel there's a duty for a journalist to use the word in the most common lexicon, or at least clarify when using an outlier definition.
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Nov 7, 2016 21:56
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Nor would a reasonable person show up to find their mother shot by a rubber bullet and then pissed you said shot
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Nov 7, 2016 22:06
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Please resolve the rubber bullet issue ASAP so that we can figure out whether the police brutality against a journalist was good or bad
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Nov 7, 2016 22:38
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Yea but define brutality.
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Nov 8, 2016 01:35
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This is the typical goon binary in action. You can be displeased with a journalist going for a clickbaity, inaccurate (but TECHNICALLY correct in the most hamfisted way possible) headline OR you can think the police firing on the journalist was bad. You can't think both that's goon-unpossible.
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Nov 8, 2016 02:20
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Could this derail about whether or not the bullet was bullety enough please cease?
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Nov 8, 2016 02:34
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Could this derail about whether or not the bullet was bullety enough please cease? Thank tfw a foreign bank is doing more about the DAPL than the potus quote:"DNB is concerned about how the situation surrounding the oil pipeline in North Dakota has developed. The bank will therefore use its position as lender to the project to encourage a more constructive process to find solutions to the conflict that has arisen. If these initiatives do not provide DNB with the necessary comfort, DNB will evaluate its further participation in the financing of the project." http://www.dallasnews.com/business/...ansfer-partners
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Nov 8, 2016 08:32
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Condiv posted:Thank Hopefully this blows up in DNB's collective faces and the execs who pushed it end up out on their asses. They should be pushing for a resolution that gets the project done and the bank paid rather than tilting at social justice windmills. What does it take to get infrastructure built these days?
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Nov 8, 2016 10:41
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Could this derail about whether or not the bullet was bullety enough please cease? yes please wateroverfire posted:Hopefully this blows up in DNB's collective faces and the execs who pushed it end up out on their asses. They should be pushing for a resolution that gets the project done and the bank paid rather than tilting at social justice windmills. What Exactly how much of a poo poo do you think the venture capitalists behind the pipeline give about a bank in Norway telling them they shouldn't be soulless mammon hunters? Hitting them on the wallet is the only thing they will ever respect.
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Nov 8, 2016 11:17
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If DNB can strongarm the pipeline corp, into that suggestion I had before (about a liability insurance agreement in writing beforehand), they'll be the heroes of this thing (after the protestors of course). That's pretty much the optimal outcome here, practically, ethically and morally. It would also signal a positive turn in the relationship between native communities & resource extraction industries, that may help things later on. You can't put a price on trust, after all. It's actually a good move by DNB.
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Nov 8, 2016 12:11
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rudatron posted:If DNB can strongarm the pipeline corp, into that suggestion I had before (about a liability insurance agreement in writing beforehand), they'll be the heroes of this thing (after the protestors of course). That's pretty much the optimal outcome here, practically, ethically and morally. It would also signal a positive turn in the relationship between native communities & resource extraction industries, that may help things later on. You can't put a price on trust, after all. I'm not sure that's true, or that a liability policy is even a thing that would satisfy the protesters. If it were, Dakota Access could fund that out of petty cash. For DNB, the execs involved are attempting to sabotage a project its investors have a stake in to no good purpose. Longer term, DNB is going to have a harder time getting in on infrastructure projects in the future for reasons that should be obvious. In a broader sense, DNB's actions - whether they succeed or not - could embolden protesters and make all sorts of projects more difficult.
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Nov 8, 2016 16:31
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wateroverfire posted:I'm not sure that's true, or that a liability policy is even a thing that would satisfy the protesters. If it were, Dakota Access could fund that out of petty cash. Which is only a problem if you don't believe the protestors have a worthy cause.
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Nov 8, 2016 16:38
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Tias posted:Which is only a problem if you don't believe the protestors have a worthy cause. It's a problem if you live in society and benefit from infrastructure. =/ There were opportunities to be heard during the planning and permitting process, and plenty of groups took advantage of those opportunities. People have to work within the system - and be encouraged to work within the system - or the result is unmanagable chaos.
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Nov 8, 2016 16:47
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DNB is not wedded to the pipeline, they're an investor. They want an outcome that works, but they also don't want too much trouble. Additionally, by supporting the native american's concerns, they're demonstrating that they're an institution that native americans can trust. Which means that, in any future development on native lands, they could very well have a position/stake as a mediator and guarantor of that trust - making them irreplaceable, and therefore valuable (or is that invaluable? Flammable, inflammable, what's the difference). You took issue with them 'tiling at social justice windmills', but they're an institution of the real world, and in the real world, human beings are social animals with a moral conscience. That's pretty handy, being that without that conscience, we wouldn't have things like society or civilization in the first place. Practically, it means they cannot and should not ignore the human element. Apparently they've got like a 10% stake in the project as well, so it's not exactly something dakota access can ignore.
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Nov 8, 2016 17:21
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rudatron, usually you seem like a pretty good poster, which is why i'm not sure why you think forcefully building poo poo on native american lands will build trust. it seems they've made pretty clear they don't want the pipeline anywhere near them, not that they want some special assurance that they'll get a payout if damage occurs. especially since they're pretty used to getting dicked over on said assurances (hell, you're advocating for ignoring one and swapping it out for this other). by the way, there's no reason to trust the company behind the dakota access pipeline quote:North Dakota regulators are filing a complaint against the oil company building the Dakota Access pipeline for failing to disclose the discovery of Native American artifacts in the path of construction. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/05/dakota-access-oil-pipeline-native-american-artifacts-discovered so it turns out the oil company was in fact destroying sacred sites and trying to hide it. thanks obama for letting "it play out for several more weeks". maybe the company can destroy even more artifacts while obama decides whether or not to do something Condiv fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Nov 8, 2016 |
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Nov 8, 2016 18:05
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Condiv posted:rudatron, usually you seem like a pretty good poster, which is why i'm not sure why you think forcefully building poo poo on native american lands will build trust. it seems they've made pretty clear they don't want the pipeline anywhere near them, not that they want some special assurance that they'll get a payout if damage occurs. especially since they're pretty used to getting dicked over on said assurances (hell, you're advocating for ignoring one and swapping it out for this other). Umm... read the article, I guess, and the linked letter. The site in question was identified, construction was routed around, the ND State Historic Preservation Office signed off on the changes... everything was done above board except that whoever was responsible for notifying the ND Public Service Comission dropped the ball (and I can only imagine how much they are hating life now) because that person was hand holding a bunch of VIPs visiting the site. A random protester quoted by the article posted:Cheryl Angel, a Sicangu Lakota tribe member who has been at the Standing Rock camps since April, said she has personally seen what appear to be indigenous artifacts in the line of construction and that she believes the pipeline operators have intentionally hidden discoveries of sacred sites and knowingly destroyed them. A random protester claimed to have seen something and believes the pipeline operators are evil. No follow up by the Guardian to verify whether the sites exist, whether the construction plan routes around them if they do, etc. Just really lovely clickbait reporting.
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Nov 8, 2016 19:58
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wateroverfire posted:Umm... read the article, I guess, and the linked letter. The site in question was identified, construction was routed around, the ND State Historic Preservation Office signed off on the changes... everything was done above board except that whoever was responsible for notifying the ND Public Service Comission dropped the ball (and I can only imagine how much they are hating life now) because that person was hand holding a bunch of VIPs visiting the site. When an oil construction project fails to file the proper paperwork, upsetting regulators, everything's fine, someone just dropped the ball, it happens wateroverfire posted:There were opportunities to be heard during the planning and permitting process, and plenty of groups took advantage of those opportunities. People have to work within the system - and be encouraged to work within the system - or the result is unmanagable chaos. When a Native American tribe fails to file the proper paperwork, they deserve no second chances, they have to learn to work within the system
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Nov 8, 2016 20:03
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Civilized Fishbot posted:When an oil construction project fails to file the proper paperwork, upsetting regulators, everything's fine, someone just dropped the ball, it happens
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Nov 8, 2016 20:08
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