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look on the bright side: at least Ted Cruz won't be president in 2020 lmao
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Nov 9, 2016 19:54
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Fojar38 posted:BTW I take back every criticism I made of Nate Silver, polls are very clearly and obviously broken
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Nov 9, 2016 19:54
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Fojar38 posted:BTW I take back every criticism I made of Nate Silver, polls are very clearly and obviously broken The bitter irony is that the LA tracking poll was right all along. We are all Celestial Scribe tonight.
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Nov 9, 2016 19:54
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fadam posted:Did Republicans get this sad and butthurt when McCain and Romney lost? I'm not a Republican, and I know some strong rightwing conservatives and their reaction was acceptance and some optimism. Granted I think the Democrat party we know today is the new Republican party so it's not like they "lost". I never considered Obama nor Hillary "progressives" either. Both were mildy reformist. Anyway maybe Trump gets nothing done in 4 years and this loss has shaken/waken the Democrats that their complacent bullshit isn't going to work. If 4 years of Trump is truly awful, that might open up the possibility for a radical candidate that can address the failures of advanced capitalism. In this political climate that's very unlikely. Americans have a ton of soul searching to do.
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Nov 9, 2016 19:55
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Pollyanna posted:So what I'm getting at is there's nothing left to be done and we're getting at least 4 years of Trumpsanity. Trump, Pence, and Rudy are all in positions of power and will exercise it as they see fit since the Senate is GOP controlled. Also check out sex tape and Supreme Court.
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Nov 9, 2016 19:54
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Fojar38 posted:Think it'll actually happen? Now that she isn't "the enemy" he doesn't seem to give a gently caress anymore Trump already back peddling on his promises.
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Nov 9, 2016 19:54
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C2C - 2.0 posted:Then provide some concrete examples of where exactly these inroads can be made & where they've worked within our modern political framework? Middle class whites are the problem. You can absolutely make inroads with poor white voters and you can absolutely do it without falling back on cowardly "neutral" rhetoric that ignores the systemic issues faced by minorities. You'll never stop the Republican party from the being the party of white people, but you can absolutely take some of those voters away once you accept that it's the white middle class that's loving everyone because they actually have some measure of power in the system.
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Nov 9, 2016 19:56
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This sucks. I have a nephew in Utah who is trans and relies on his parents insurance for antidepressants. What the hell will even happen to him? He's gonna lose that insurance 3 years early.
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Nov 9, 2016 19:56
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jwang posted:In short, it's going to take a helluva lot of work to even try to court people of opposing ideologies. The outliers being that a goodly portion of these FB friends are also people who I see & talk to in person. Most of them I went to college with. We weren't terribly political then; we drank & did drugs & tried to get laid. Up until a point (In 2004 when Obama was nominated), there wasn't an inkling that any of these folks would turn out to be rabid Trumpistas. I mean, none of them really struggled economically or lost manufacturing jobs or ever been impacted in any way by immigration. Most aren't religious, but the few who are don't even really practice. Paradoxish posted:Middle class whites are the problem. You can absolutely make inroads with poor white voters and you can absolutely do it without falling back on cowardly "neutral" rhetoric that ignores the systemic issues faced by minorities. You'll never stop the Republican party from the being the party of white people, but you can absolutely take some of those voters away once you accept that it's the white middle class that's loving everyone because they actually have some measure of power in the system. And there's the rub. 
C2C - 2.0 fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Nov 9, 2016 |
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Nov 9, 2016 19:57
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My state went for Trump. Outside the normal strongholds: Madison, Milwaukee, and Janesville, It was overwhelmingly red. I don't feel at home here anymore. I don't live in the big cities, so I now know I'm basically living with big pockets of people who are diametrically opposed to me in political views at the very least. I don't feel I have a future here anymore. And really, my sentiment extends to the country as a whole at this moment. gently caress this country, how the gently caress did we let this happen?
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Nov 9, 2016 19:58
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mintskoal posted:The GOP has maintained that the post 2008 recovery wasn't a recovery at all. I don't have any faith that they'd own a second crash. They'd blame Obama's policies without batting an eye. Yes and they would be doing nothing to improve it.
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Nov 9, 2016 19:58
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C2C - 2.0 posted:I mean, none of them really struggled economically or lost manufacturing jobs or ever been impacted in any way by immigration. Most aren't religious, but the few who are don't even really practice. Are they white. I dunno, this is one of those things I get to enjoy since I'm black and all my white friends actively seek me out so they're all left-leaning types. If you're white why wouldn't you assume your fellow white person is a hard-R? All studies point to this.
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Nov 9, 2016 19:58
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Lessail posted:The common energy is racism in america
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Nov 9, 2016 19:59
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Crowsbeak posted:Yes and they would be doing nothing to improve it.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:00
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Acid Haze posted:My state went for Trump. Outside the normal strongholds: Madison, Milwaukee, and Janesville, It was overwhelmingly red. I don't feel at home here anymore. I don't live in the big cities, so I now know I'm basically living with big pockets of people who are diametrically opposed to me in political views at the very least. I don't feel I have a future here anymore. And really, my sentiment extends to the country as a whole at this moment. gently caress this country, how the gently caress did we let this happen?   They said Wisconsin was needed for Hillary to win and I was like what the gently caress, we're a blue state. I was so sad. So, so sad. I live in Racine.  Edit: hey, good job red texter! I actually am fine with this, thanks.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:02
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C2C - 2.0 posted:The outliers being that a goodly portion of these FB friends are also people who I see & talk to in person. Most of them I went to college with. We weren't terribly political then; we drank & did drugs & tried to get laid. Up until a point (In 2004 when Obama was nominated), there wasn't an inkling that any of these folks would turn out to be rabid Trumpistas. I mean, none of them really struggled economically or lost manufacturing jobs or ever been impacted in any way by immigration. Most aren't religious, but the few who are don't even really practice. Trump was not the candidate of any particular class, age or religion of white people. Trump was the candidate of white people who saw the world changing around them and voted for someone who promised to make it stop.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:02
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ilkhan posted:I just find it painful that the common thread here is that anybody who voted for him (which does not include me, by the way) is automatically a racist piece of poo poo. As if there weren't dozens of other possible reason to vote for him or dozens of reasons to vote against Clinton. Focusing all your hatred in one direction feels good, but it ignores the other causes and just pisses off the people who did vote for him for other reasons and makes them even stronger proponents. If you want to change their minds, it might help to actually listen to their complaints (which is, ironically enough, one of their complaints in the first place). The vast majority of people voted for him in spite of that racism, not because of it. ITT a lot of people claiming to want to fight bigotry and prejudice complaining about "the whites".
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Nov 9, 2016 20:02
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Deadly Ham Sandwich posted:Blacks are religiously conservative too, but Democrats rely on both groups being driven into their tent by the GOP blatant hate for them. Hell, one of the biggest issues for blacks was to please not be gunned down police and Democrats don't have a policy to stop that. I am kind of surprised Latinos voting Trump somehow think Trump and Republicans distinguish between Latinos. It is the same to the Republicans. Cubans have been catered to by the GOP more or less, even if only so they can keep a hold on Florida.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:03
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ilkhan posted:I just find it painful that the common thread here is that anybody who voted for him (which does not include me, by the way) is automatically a racist piece of poo poo. As if there weren't dozens of other possible reason to vote for him or dozens of reasons to vote against Clinton. Focusing all your hatred in one direction feels good, but it ignores the other causes and just pisses off the people who did vote for him for other reasons and makes them even stronger proponents. If you want to change their minds, it might help to actually listen to their complaints (which is, ironically enough, one of their complaints in the first place). The vast majority of people voted for him in spite of that racism, not because of it. Because when someone says "oh well, I just don't consider how the candidate will impact minorities in my voting calculus" that's a decision that further supports racism. Sure you can smugly say "I'm not racist, I voted for Trump because I hate abortions" but you are still fundamentally stating that the impacts on minorities are less important than your pet issues.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:02
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Deadly Ham Sandwich posted:Trump already back peddling on his promises. That feeling when you realize he also doesn't give a gently caress about muslims or immigration
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Nov 9, 2016 20:02
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ilkhan posted:I just find it painful that the common thread here is that anybody who voted for him (which does not include me, by the way) is automatically a racist piece of poo poo. As if there weren't dozens of other possible reason to vote for him or dozens of reasons to vote against Clinton. Focusing all your hatred in one direction feels good, but it ignores the other causes and just pisses off the people who did vote for him for other reasons and makes them even stronger proponents. If you want to change their minds, it might help to actually listen to their complaints (which is, ironically enough, one of their complaints in the first place). The vast majority of people voted for him in spite of that racism, not because of it. If you are okay with voting in a racist and misogynist piece of poo poo, let alone all the million other reasons he should not be voted for, you are a racist and misogynist piece of poo poo. You don't vote for a racist in spite of their racism. When you vote for a racist you are complicit. Approval of racism is racist.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:03
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C2C - 2.0 posted:Then provide some concrete examples of where exactly these inroads can be made & where they've worked within our modern political framework? That's true, and I don't really have a good answer for you. I understand the frustration, but I think there's a currently a kind of social cachet in very publicly declaring that anyone from The Other Side is impossible to deal with and you will be deleting them en masse from your social media and life. I don't personally blame people who tire of trying to debate in good faith, because it takes a lot of energy and time, but there's no moral good in self-segregation and entrenchment.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:02
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Acid Haze posted:My state went for Trump. Outside the normal strongholds: Madison, Milwaukee, and Janesville, It was overwhelmingly red. I don't feel at home here anymore. I don't live in the big cities, so I now know I'm basically living with big pockets of people who are diametrically opposed to me in political views at the very least. I don't feel I have a future here anymore. And really, my sentiment extends to the country as a whole at this moment. gently caress this country, how the gently caress did we let this happen? I think we'll see a lot of self-sorting in the next few years. Red states will get redder and strongholds of progressives will get bluer.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:03
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Acid Haze posted:My state went for Trump. Outside the normal strongholds: Madison, Milwaukee, and Janesville, It was overwhelmingly red. I don't feel at home here anymore. I don't live in the big cities, so I now know I'm basically living with big pockets of people who are diametrically opposed to me in political views at the very least. I don't feel I have a future here anymore. And really, my sentiment extends to the country as a whole at this moment. gently caress this country, how the gently caress did we let this happen? The answer from what I see is a media that got lazy and fat off of false equivalencies since anything critical of the right wing led to meltdowns from politicians and viewers alike and a DNC that took their voters for granted and didn't pay attention to how the country was moving. It's basically the same thing that happened in England except their media is worse but their labor party is similar with neoliberal policies no one really wants and expecting people to just suck it up. The GOP are the real villains but the parts of society that were supposed to protect us let them take over which is distressing.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:03
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Fojar38 posted:That feeling when you realize he also doesn't give a gently caress about muslims or immigration so he's just a total liar about everything then cool, mark this one a Win and let's move on everybody
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Nov 9, 2016 20:04
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Kro-Bar posted:I think we'll see a lot of self-sorting in the next few years. Red states will get redder and strongholds of progressives will get bluer. Which is how Trump won the electoral college.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:05
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FactsAreUseless posted:Actually, they'd cut taxes. Funny.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:05
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jwang posted:It's probably the result of how modern communications systems (social media, actual media, and everything else) leads to people gravitating towards groups that share similar thoughts. As a result, it creates these echo chambers that refuse to allow for a different opinion. The best example of this would be how Fox talk show hosts tends to shout down anyone who even dares to slightly disagree with their opinion, even if the point of contention is backed up by reams of research. As a result, it becomes not who's factually right, but who's truthiness is loudest. This is part of it. The other part is that American public education basically doesn't cover critical thinking. I didn't have to learn about philosophy, ethics, or critical thinking until I went to college. Our education system is based on regurgitating the answer from the book in almost every area up through high school, which is still where most people stop. I think the closest we get is teachers not liking it when you source Wikipedia on your research paper. If you're never taught how to evaluate the source, context, or relevance of a "fact", or how to follow the chain of logic to its conclusion or lackthereof, then that's that. You can be the smartest motherfucker on the planet, but if all sources of information are equal to you, you're just gonna arbitrarily pick the one that you like. This is especially important in an age where we have politicians saying you can't trust the media. "Oh, I can't trust the media. Well, this website says Obama is actually Kenyan! I guess you really can't trust the media to report these serious matters."
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Nov 9, 2016 20:05
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Martha Stewart Undying posted:Are they white. Yes, but I kinda' thought that was implicit. And that's the point: I, personally, hadn't encountered a single bit of crazy narrative or diatribe from any of these people until 2004. Yes, I live in Louisiana. Yes, it's part of the South. Yes, it's hard to convince me that a (yooge) majority of the Republican base aren't racist and aren't driven to vote due to that racism. Racism isn't irreversible, but holy poo poo stemming that tide is hard enough....reversing its course is positively Herculean.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:04
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As I said, it would be a waste to try getting converts without first making sure that the party establishment of the Democrats has its poo poo together, and won't shoot their own grassroots efforts in the foot.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:04
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Torpor posted:ITT a lot of people claiming to want to fight bigotry and prejudice complaining about "the whites". White people overwhelmingly voted Trump and are the only group to do so by majority. Trump is a fascist. White people don't suffer systemic racial discrimination. Hth.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:04
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Trump probably really doesn't want the job now that he has it. He actually has to do stuff now instead of being a rich guy stereotype.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:04
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Trabisnikof posted:Because when someone says "oh well, I just don't consider how the candidate will impact minorities in my voting calculus" that's a decision that further supports racism. It might be fair to say that a lot of rural voters don't see racism as an actual problem.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:04
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Tatsuta Age posted:so he's just a total liar about everything then cool, mark this one a Win and let's move on everybody Best case scenario he's a pre-TR "steward" President who mostly just makes speeches and has his cabinet do everything Note: This is bad but not apocalyptic
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Nov 9, 2016 20:06
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Squashing Machine posted:Then we're lost. Absolve yourself of all responsibility, there's no point in trying to change minds because there are no minds to change. "Evils of the uneducated"? I'm not saying "uneducated white males" because I'm trying to create some boogeyman or something, I'm saying it because the people I'm responding to are saying that uneducated white males are a uniquely important demographic whose feelings are worth more than the well-being of women, black people, Hispanic people of all kinds and origins, Muslims, Jews, LGBT people, more. And no, the reason "we" get accused of being elitist is because we believe in a truth that disagrees with their gut feelings. That's where "ivory tower academic" comes from - it's a way to dismiss science and research that goes against conservative orthodoxy by saying that those elitist college-educated scientists and researchers just don't understand how the real world works and therefore all their studies and research are wrong, except for the one or two outliers with questionable methodology which agree with the far right. ilkhan posted:I just find it painful that the common thread here is that anybody who voted for him (which does not include me, by the way) is automatically a racist piece of poo poo. As if there weren't dozens of other possible reason to vote for him or dozens of reasons to vote against Clinton. Focusing all your hatred in one direction feels good, but it ignores the other causes and just pisses off the people who did vote for him for other reasons and makes them even stronger proponents. If you want to change their minds, it might help to actually listen to their complaints (which is, ironically enough, one of their complaints in the first place). The vast majority of people voted for him in spite of that racism, not because of it. Voting for him in spite of that racism means that the person felt the racism was not a good enough reason to vote against him. What if this election was David Duke vs Hillary Clinton? Would they swallow your hatred and vote for an open racist, a literal goddamn publicly known KKK member and self-identified white nationalist, because they thought his economic rhetoric was better and that Hillary supporters were too "elitist" toward white people? If so, then I feel quite comfortable calling that person racist, because even if they weren't voting for Trump because of his racism, they at least felt like they could tolerate voting for a racist, and that their own white person issues were more important than equal rights for women and racial minorities.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:05
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Fojar38 posted:Best case scenario he's a pre-TR "steward" President who mostly just makes speeches and has his cabinet do everything His cabinet may or may not include Rudy Giuliani.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:05
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Fojar38 posted:Best case scenario he's a pre-TR "steward" President who mostly just makes speeches and has his cabinet do everything so Rudy Giuliani, Newt Gingrich, and Chris Christie get to run the government, ok cool, mark it a Win and let's move on
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Nov 9, 2016 20:06
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deadly_pudding posted:This is part of it. The other part is that American public education basically doesn't cover critical thinking. I didn't have to learn about philosophy, ethics, or critical thinking until I went to college. Our education system is based on regurgitating the answer from the book in almost every area up through high school, which is still where most people stop. I think the closest we get is teachers not liking it when you source Wikipedia on your research paper. Remember the Texas Republican Party actively opposed the teaching of critical thinking in school. Torpor posted:It might be fair to say that a lot of rural voters don't see racism as an actual problem. Among white rural voters, sure. That's just one of the more pernicious ways racism works in America.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:06
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Fojar38 posted:That feeling when you realize he also doesn't give a gently caress about muslims or immigration
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Nov 9, 2016 20:06
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Glazier posted:Trump was not the candidate of any particular class, age or religion of white people. Trump was the candidate of white people who saw the world changing around them and voted for someone who promised to make it stop. This so very much. It's not going to change for the better any time soon if the GOP gets half as entrenched as we expect. It's going to get so, so very much worse. I'm talking Bush-era, but with much more open hatred of all Others at best.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:07
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