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Apraxin posted:But what some people are saying about needing to drop the racial identity politics, focus much much more on class, seems like it's effectively telling minorities 'sure, white-dominated society institutionally discriminates against you and throws obstacle after obstacle in the path to equality. and sure, you've turned out for us these past few years because we've promised to try and fix things. well, sorry, but it turns out that taking some baby steps in that direction really alienated white people, so we're gonna put your issues on the back burner for a bit while we focus on what matters to them. you're ok with that, right? I mean, it's not like you'll vote for the other side - they'll do nothing for you!'. This is where I'm at and I don't know the answer to it. I know not every lower class rural voter is a racist, but I don't know exactly how you appeal to that general demographic while still maintaining an overall racially progressive message. I'm on the run so I can't pull up the studies or anything at the moment, and feel free to correct me if I'm totally misstating something, but I remember a while back reading a number of pieces about in today's America, it's not enough to just offer people something -- you have to offer them something while still ensuring them that other people won't get that same thing. Sometimes it's about race, sometimes it's about class, but that sentiment is there a lot in voters from both parties. You could see a lot of this back in the minimum wage debate last year, especially when the stuff with the Seattle airport was happening. There were a lot of people who would be demonstrably better off with a minimum wage increase, and it would be better for the economy as a whole, but they refused to support it because of stuff like "It's bullshit that I had to work my rear end off to make $12 my job and now you're just going to give that to some new kid, gently caress that" or "You seriously think a janitor or a burger flipper (or insert any low-paying job often held by non-whites) should make $15 an hour when I only make $16?" and in their minds race didn't even enter the equation, but their position still helped enforce white supremacy. And even if that's not rational, it's understandable, and you can't just handwave it away with "Ugh you greedy racist shut up and accept it." How DO you convince a rural, or even middle class white voter, that they'll be better off with a "rising tide lifts all boats" message? They haven't bought it in the past -- how do you package it so it works? Part of Trump's success, even for people who aren't actively racist, is that he actively combined a message of "I'm going to make YOUR life better" with "And here's how I'll make all these OTHER people's lives worse, making you EVEN BETTER off!" How do we combat that? How do we embrace that? I don't know the answer.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:36
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steinrokkan posted:They vote for what they believe to be in their own interest, because the opposing party hasn't come up with an effective debunking yet, somehow. Agreed. Problem is that there's plenty of debunking but they've convinced people that the media lies to them and that you can't believe anything except what the hivemind says. I'm at a loss at how the Democrats can get that messaging across because up to this point they've been completely incompetent. I'm definitely not an accelerationist but until lower and middle-class people get really hosed you're not going to see any kind of shift in how the country votes. Even then I don't really have faith that Republican voters will make the connection.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:37
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DeusExMachinima posted:I'm not owned! I'm not owned! No. I'm owned. I got owned by a bunch of idiot potheads who felt that the people like me who campaigned for Bernie didn't do a good enough job shoving my tongue up their rear end, and then did nothing in either the primary or the general. Dumb white dudes owned me again by ruining my future. I got trolled hard bro. You guys did it. You got me. <----lol
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Nov 9, 2016 20:37
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SoggyBobcat posted:Even with those reforms, white privilege (and white male privilege, specifically) was still the status quo. I don't know what's controversial about this. White dude posters wanting to pretend they aren't the problem is what's controversial about it.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:36
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Watching white people try to grasp for any reason as to why all of this isn't their and their white nationalist relatives fault when literally every other racial group is telling you "no, it is. Racism and sexism in America is on y'all", because every single reason you think of, makes no goddamn sense if you think about it for more than 5 seconds. It's the fault of all you "good" white people that are still smiling and laughing and loving your hateful bigoted sexist and racist rear end family members instead of cutting them the gently caress off and treating them like the awful fuckin people they are. And now here we are. Y'all didn't want to make the sacrifices that minorities have to make everyday, and you hosed everyone in the process.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:37
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ilkhan posted:Pretty much. I'm saying that racism, sexism, bigotry, democracy, freedom of the press, etc exist as a laundry list of things that if you choose to ignore them you're actively supporting those that do harm to our society and country. I'm not saying everyone must litmus test on who will help women more, but that if you say "I'm not a women so I don't consider how my vote impacts women" that choice supports sexism. And so on.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:39
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Obama has really set a dangerous table for Trump: 1. Wars without authorization 2. Executive Orders that bypass Congress 3. Domestic spying with no Congressional oversight (in fact, spies on Congress) 4. DOJ going after reporters Gonna be a lot of introspection about the Obama years in light of this victory.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:38
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^^^Oh please, introspection only lasts as long as your team isn't the one holding the stick. We've seen this pattern a million times before.negromancer posted:Watching white people try to grasp for any reason as to why all of this isn't their and their white nationalist relatives fault when literally every other racial group is telling you "no, it is. Racism and sexism in America is on y'all", because every single reason you think of, makes no goddamn sense if you think about it for more than 5 seconds. Wanna explain why Obama had 10% higher turnout and rocked many of the precincts that Hillary lost or barely won?
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Nov 9, 2016 20:40
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This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
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I have one glimmer of hope: Trump's base is hugely made up of authoritarian followers in the Altemeyer sense; whatever Trump says, they like, as long as he keeps projecting the image of an authoritarian strongman. Case in point: when Trump said Obama was born in the US suddenly his people were totally OK with that because he was the one who said it. So if Trump doesn't give a gently caress about loving awful lolbertarian austrian economics bullshit (which the base only cared about when it was framed with dogwhistles that appealed to their own fears anyway) then we may see that ideology lose credibility. welp anyway, I voted for Bernie in the primary and Abuela in the general, I'm still sad, gently caress everything. 
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Nov 9, 2016 20:41
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has anyone else been getting pop ups in the corner of their browser from washington post after reading a few articles on there? And if so, any idea how to turn them off?
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Nov 9, 2016 20:41
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Arkane posted:Obama has really set a dangerous table for Trump: Lol someone hasn't gotten to GW Bush in their history class yet.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:42
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HorseRenoir posted:I'd like to believe that the media will go hard on Trump's administration simply because the story is juicier, but lol who knows They also have to deal with Trump suing them for anything he regards as misinformation. David Cay Johnston had to lawyer up more than any other point in his career after writing his book on Trump and that was after filling it with indisputable facts in the public record. Truth is irrelevant, the courts are an effective way of inconveniencing people into ruin if you can throw enough money and power behind your frivolous lawsuits. loving absurd that just like 2000, the candidate with the most votes doesn't win on account of the electoral college and now Trump's ideology is going to be widespread regardless of what the majority wants. It's the sort of thing that should be causing a nation-wide, enraged political revolution but everyone is just going to grumble and move on because that's the way the system is set up, I guess.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:41
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SoggyBobcat posted:Even with those reforms, white privilege (and white male privilege, specifically) was still the status quo. I don't know what's controversial about this. If you don't understand why Trump represented a massive shift in the status quo, at least on paper, then wtf are you doing talking about politics
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Nov 9, 2016 20:42
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Schizotek posted:Because the dumb fuckers didn't bother to vote in the primary election either. Hillary won the primaries popular vote by more than 3 million. But the stupid lazy potheads could do nothing but whine about how the election was stolen from them because they were too lazy to get off the couch to actually do anything, and then spent the entire general basically being republicans for all the good they did the election. Berniebros are garbage who hosed over every gay person and minority in the country with their selfishness and apathy. Yeah let's keep thinking those Berniebros are the reason she lost. It's not like they still voted in numbers in line with the past of supporters of the 2nd place primary loser. Hillary was a garbage tier candidate. She was never able to control an narrative about herself or her opponent. Her "classic campaign skills" had almost nothing to do with her. She had a poo poo load of money since like 2008 building up to the run. Of course you can take an early lead when you start the race with full party support and tens of millions of dollars already raised. Her surrogates performed well and did heir jobs, but Clinton could never rally public support. As a "Berniebro" myself I spent the last months publicly telling people to vote for Hillary and talking about all of the terrible poo poo Trump has done. Bernie supports did NOT throw this election, the establishment deciding it was "her turn" years ago is what lost it.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:44
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steinrokkan posted:People are antagonized by the message "You are bigoted, because I say so, and I'm smarter than you. Also I'm not going to listen to what you are going to say in response, so don't even bother." Who is actually saying that, outside of people on the internet? I'm tired of legitimizing this narrative. Hillary's campaign was at best tenatively, tepidly even, pro-black. She did not bend over backwards to BLM. She did not echo extremist Tumblr screeds. So tell me, who exactly in the Democratic party is telling non-college educated whites this?
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Nov 9, 2016 20:43
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Also, even if the ONLY reason trump won is white supremacy... what are you doing to do about it? What is the Democratic party going to do about it?
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Nov 9, 2016 20:44
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negromancer posted:Watching white people try to grasp for any reason as to why all of this isn't their and their white nationalist relatives fault when literally every other racial group is telling you "no, it is. Racism and sexism in America is on y'all", because every single reason you think of, makes no goddamn sense if you think about it for more than 5 seconds. You are absolutely unhinged, and never in a million years will telling people to cut their families off create the society you want.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:44
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chumbler posted:I'm praying they'll finally wake up and do their loving jobs for once. I think this is the wrong expectation. Their jobs are to make money by selling advertisements. They cozy up to politicians, smile and nod because they need the access for stories that draw eyes to ads. To corporate media, things like truth, due diligence and civic responsibility are like regulations to a business. They care about them exactly enough to not pay a cost for ignoring them, and then not a moment more.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:44
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hot take but i think the biggest failure of leftist ideology at the moment is calving off race and economics into discrete issues without overlap. this creates a Blind Men and the Elephant situation - Jacobin finds the economics facet of Trumpism and declares it to be a class issue; Slate finds the white identity politics and declares it to be a racial issue. i think if there is going to be some form of resurgent left in America, it needs to recognize that economics and race are interrelated and that dismissing one half of that equation simply does not work.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:46
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Trabisnikof posted:Lol someone hasn't gotten to GW Bush in their history class yet. How does GW Bush relate to my post? The only thing that applies is domestic surveillance, which Obama expanded massively.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:45
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Bushiz posted:The actions of populations are the result of those trying to influence those populations. Hillary Clinton could not convince 10 million people to get out of their houses as obama did in 2008, and it is not the fault of those 10 million. At what point does this become infantilizing and deny the agency of voters?
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Nov 9, 2016 20:46
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Apraxin posted:I think I get where people are coming from on this: Trump is the first candidate in a generation to explicitly court rural whites, non-college whites, etc (and boy did it pay off for him), and the Dems will likely pay a stiff price if they just write off that whole voting block as racist and not worth bothering with. I just don't see how more focus on common working class problems excludes minorities. That conclusion seems to be based on flawed premises. For one minority voters are not a homogeneous block and may be socially conservative and only democrats out of convenience. negromancer posted:Watching white people try to grasp for any reason as to why all of this isn't their and their white nationalist relatives fault when literally every other racial group is telling you "no, it is. Racism and sexism in America is on y'all", because every single reason you think of, makes no goddamn sense if you think about it for more than 5 seconds. This is an unreasonable post.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:47
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Ways Bernie ruined the election 1. Daring to run a successful grassroots campaign despite having little public presence at the time 2. Stepping out of the race without complaint or anger when it became clear he wasn't going to be the candidate 3. Campaigning for Hillary and telling his supporters that getting her elected was priority #1 4. Existing 5. Something about being Jewish?
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Nov 9, 2016 20:48
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I am very interested to see how people react to Trump when he doesn't do 90% of what he promised. Like it's pretty clear a lot of Trump's campaign 'promises' were him just saying whatever it is he thought the base wanted to hear. Like, who the gently caress knows what Trump's actual ideologies and important goals are. When Trump doesn't build a wall, doesn't deport all brown people, doesn't bomb ISIS, doesn't put Hilary in jail; how do the Trump voters react? We'll get the rollbacks on entitlement programs and the eventual dissolution of Obamacare (God knows how long that'll take), but that's the only one of his campaign 'promises' I can see him doing with any level of certainty. I really don't see him being a very involved President, more just a face. The GOP senate and house will pass a whole lot of poo poo that he didn't bring up in his campaign and his base didn't necessarily expect. BTW assuming Paul Ryan sticks around say hello to the world of block grant food stamps.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:47
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corn in the bible posted:Also, even if the ONLY reason trump won is white supremacy... what are you doing to do about it? What is the Democratic party going to do about it? Nothing. Republicans will control the government for a generation.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:48
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Torpor posted:I just don't see how more focus on common working class problems excludes minorities. That conclusion seems to be based on flawed premises. For one minority voters are not a homogeneous block and may be socially conservative and only democrats out of convenience. Because for the last hundred years of American politics, solutions to the problems of the common working class have usually explicitly excluded minorities. It's not an unusual thing.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:48
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Squashing Machine posted:Ways Bernie ruined the election Bernie himself did not do anything to ruin the election, no. Some of his supporters, on the other hand, were batshit insane. Then again I don't think there's any evidence those people would have voted blue in absence of Bernie anyways, so 
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Nov 9, 2016 20:48
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trash person posted:I am very interested to see how people react to Trump when he doesn't do 90% of what he promised. Like it's pretty clear a lot of Trump's campaign 'promises' were him just saying whatever it is he thought the base wanted to hear. Makes me wonder what's going to happen when the people who voted for Trump because they were tired of being hosed continue to get hosed.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:49
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Sad folks: CBT warns us against "fortune telling" as it can lead to negative feedback loops in your thought processes. It is not foregone that civil rights will be curtailed in Trump's America, but if the unthinkable occurs, please remember you have a voice and a vote. Protest, inform, and participate. In the face of a setback, you can choose to despair or to harden your resolve.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:50
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Captain Oblivious posted:Because for the last hundred years of American politics, solutions to the problems of the common working class have usually explicitly excluded minorities. Sure but that is an easy messaging fix.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:49
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Bernie once faked the funk on a nasty dunk and i have the footage to prove it. stay tuned for my oppo dump.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:50
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Arkane posted:How does GW Bush relate to my post? The only thing that applies is domestic surveillance, which Obama expanded massively. Right he called them "signing statements" Torpor posted:This is an unreasonable post. What specifically about that post is unreasonable?
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Nov 9, 2016 20:50
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negromancer posted:Watching white people try to grasp for any reason as to why all of this isn't their and their white nationalist relatives fault when literally every other racial group is telling you "no, it is. Racism and sexism in America is on y'all", because every single reason you think of, makes no goddamn sense if you think about it for more than 5 seconds. did white people vote for obama over romney because they're racist
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Nov 9, 2016 20:50
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I kind of wonder if Obama will try and play a role in Democratic Party going forward. he's still pretty young for an exiting President but I imagine he's going to retire for a bit first
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Nov 9, 2016 20:50
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If the Democrats try and pin this on Bernie (which I have no idea if they are other than a few salty Hillary fans here) they will and deserve to lose in 2020. The problem is that we are going to pay for it like we are now.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:51
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Bhaal posted:I'm not sure if it's posted, this thread is moving a little quickly, but speaking of moving, this is an extremely good twitter thread that is worth your time: Twitter is godawful to read and lots of people won't, so I'm going to format it here: quote:woke up out of my dead sleep an hour ago. I knew Trump won before I went to bed. I just thought I might have a full nights sleep first
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Nov 9, 2016 20:51
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i guess it's true that democrats have no ideas and republicans have bad ideas
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Nov 9, 2016 20:52
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kaleedity posted:did white people vote for obama over romney because they're racist Who voted for Obama in 2012 that also voted for Trump yesterday? Please tell me where these unicorns exist.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:51
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Fojar38 posted:Makes me wonder what's going to happen when the people who voted for Trump because they were tired of being hosed continue to get hosed. Blame the Lugenpresse probably. kaleedity posted:did white people vote for obama over romney because they're racist Neither Obama nor Romney was actively and openly pro-racist.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:51
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Radish posted:If the Democrats try and pin this on Bernie (which I have no idea if they are other than a few salty Hillary fans here) they will and deserve to lose in 2020. The problem is that we are going to pay for it like we are now. It literally doesn't matter what the post mortem says we're going to control none of the government until 2024 bare minimum. With the filibuster gone we will literally have nothing. You guys don't seem to grasp the full gravity of how hosed we are. It's over.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:51
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