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kaleedity posted:did white people vote for obama over romney because they're racist Racism is more than just putting on a white hood and actively lynching someone. It is more than screaming the n-word on live TV. Racism is in a refusal to see discrimination because it's inconvenient to you. Racism is voting for a guy who actively promises to deport millions of people, or ban an entire religion, based on racial animus because gently caress, it doesn't inconvenience me.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:51
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kaleedity posted:did white people vote for obama over romney because they're racist Of course because I have already concluded that all of the whites are subhuman racists
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Nov 9, 2016 20:51
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Torpor posted:This is an unreasonable post. There is nothing unreasonable about ostracizing bigots, friend. Some people are dependent on family and there shouldn't be expectations on them to chew off their own leg or anything, but it's actually cool and good to cut bad people out of your life regardless of blood relation where it's possible to do so.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:52
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Captain Oblivious posted:At what point does this become infantilizing and deny the agency of voters? Y'know, I've been considering making this post (but snarkier) repeatedly all day. It really seems like a lot of the posters here don't think that the masses have any agency whatsoever, and only political elites have it. If a elite does something, and a group of voters responds, it is the elite whose fault that response is. The masses aren't people, they're a volitionless automaton that inputs words and outputs votes or no votes. It's very odd.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:54
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trash person posted:Trump's voting base being ok with the outright misogyny is more surprising to me than the racism stuff. Better to be a white woman with white privilege than without.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:53
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Lightning Knight posted:It literally doesn't matter what the post mortem says we're going to control none of the government until 2024 bare minimum. Yeah this is true. Maybe the pacific coast can secede?
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Nov 9, 2016 20:54
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Torpor posted:Of course because I have already concluded that all of the whites are subhuman racists Of course the OP never said that or implied it so you're full of poo poo, what a surprise.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:54
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Radish posted:If the Democrats try and pin this on Bernie (which I have no idea if they are other than a few salty Hillary fans here) they will and deserve to lose in 2020. The problem is that we are going to pay for it like we are now. The problem isn't Bernie. I have every respect for the man, and actually put time and effort into trying to get him to be the nominee. But the people who I couldn't get to vote in the primary, who did nothing complain about a stolen primary, do nothing but attack Hillary once the primary was over, and didn't vote in the general all seem to be the same loving people. Who incidentally are now desperately claiming that NO! ITS THE PEOPLE WHO PUT EFFORT INTO POLITICS NOT I THE LAZY APATHETIC rear end in a top hat WHO AM TO BLAME!
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Nov 9, 2016 20:55
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paranoid randroid posted:hot take but i think the biggest failure of leftist ideology at the moment is calving off race and economics into discrete issues without overlap. this creates a Blind Men and the Elephant situation - Jacobin finds the economics facet of Trumpism and declares it to be a class issue; Slate finds the white identity politics and declares it to be a racial issue. Basically reparations need to happen and happen in a big way, in tandem with the dismantling of institutionalized racism, in order to make any sort of real and visible impact in lifting up the socioeconomic status of minorities in this country. The problem is that reparations are a political non-starter among everybody but the most fringe left, and I just don't see how you build a reasonable narrative of racism and economics being intertwined without also acknowledging the need for reparations.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:54
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Really think it's weird to be blaming either Bernie or Clinton supporters when a much larger factor in this rout was the news media
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Nov 9, 2016 20:54
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Lightning Knight posted:It literally doesn't matter what the post mortem says we're going to control none of the government until 2024 bare minimum. Nah I get it but they have to start building up now to get to 2024 (or maybe 2020 if the star align). Fojar38 posted:Really think it's weird to be blaming either Bernie or Clinton supporters when a much larger factor in this rout was the news media Yeah they deserve a huge amount of it. They made their king and I hope he rewards them appropriately.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:55
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PKJC posted:There is nothing unreasonable about ostracizing bigots, friend. Some people are dependent on family and there shouldn't be expectations on them to chew off their own leg or anything, but it's actually cool and good to cut bad people out of your life regardless of blood relation where it's possible to do so. Disowning family members is an unreasonable request to make of others.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:56
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Arkane posted:Obama has really set a dangerous table for Trump: This is absolutely correct.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:56
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I'm aware this is sore loser talk but there really should be more outrage about the EC system. This is the 2nd time in 4 elections that the popular vote did not win and it is just insane.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:56
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As someone who is about to be banned, all I have to say is Ave, Imperator, morituri te salutant Now watch this drive.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:58
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Torpor posted:Disowning family members is an unreasonable request to make of others. Really? Under any condition? Or is actively supporting racism just not a big enough deal to demand it for you?
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Nov 9, 2016 20:58
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Ratoslov posted:Y'know, I've been considering making this post (but snarkier) repeatedly all day. It really seems like a lot of the posters here don't think that the masses have any agency whatsoever, and only political elites have it. If a elite does something, and a group of voters responds, it is the elite whose fault that response is. The masses aren't people, they're a volitionless automaton that inputs words and outputs votes or no votes. It's very odd. The masses have exactly as much agency as I need to make my point. If I personally perceive the candidate to be the problem, the masses are mindless automatons that respond to the strength of the signal the candidate is putting out. If I perceive policy to be the problem, the masses instead possess full subjectivity and have considered the policy in full! Yeah people do this a lot.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:58
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Everyone that's blaming this election on racist rust belt whites haven't learned a goddamn thing and that's the most hilarious thing for me from this whole fiasco. The Democratic establishment chose the candidate with the most baggage and known likability issue, ignored a genuine grassroots populist candidate and shouted down his supporters, and then have the balls to continue to blame poor white people and call them racist when a good percentage of them voted Obama into office and for his second term. Cognitive dissonance is a helluva drug.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:58
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The Shortest Path posted:Who voted for Obama in 2012 that also voted for Trump yesterday? Please tell me where these unicorns exist. My brother. He has two Bachelor's degrees but works in a dead end job with no room for advancement. He voted for Obama in 2008 and 2012 but was a big Trump supporter because he feels that the system doesn't care about him and would rather blow it up than wait for who knows how long for the Democrats to actually get something done.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:58
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Torpor posted:Disowning family members is an unreasonable request to make of others. Only whiny pissbabies get that mad at politics anyway
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Nov 9, 2016 20:58
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Sydin posted:Basically reparations need to happen and happen in a big way, in tandem with the dismantling of institutionalized racism, in order to make any sort of real and visible impact in lifting up the socioeconomic status of minorities in this country. The problem is that reparations are a political non-starter among everybody but the most fringe left, and I just don't see how you build a reasonable narrative of racism and economics being intertwined without also acknowledging the need for reparations. sad thing is that Coates hit the nail square on the head when he said that the real shame of the left is that Bernie Sanders, a candidate who was pretty much testing the limits of accepted politics in America, was so drat mainstream in his views on race. radical economic reforms are on the table right up until you bring up the R Word, and suddenly we have to be practical and realistic.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:58
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PKJC posted:There is nothing unreasonable about ostracizing bigots, friend. Some people are dependent on family and there shouldn't be expectations on them to chew off their own leg or anything, but it's actually cool and good to cut bad people out of your life regardless of blood relation where it's possible to do so. Dear family, it is without regret that I will not be attending Christmas this year, in light of a joke my younger brother made in 1998 where he claimed erroneously to be of Chinese descent and to have urinated, with malice aforethought, in my Coke
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Nov 9, 2016 20:59
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Torpor posted:ITT a lot of people claiming to want to fight bigotry and prejudice complaining about "the whites". Yeah, if you try to cast American politics as "whites vs. everyone else," you don't get to be mad when white people vote like they believe you If the Democrats want to win, they can't just sit on their hands and wait until demographics shift and whites aren't the majority. Democrats and leftists in general need a message that resonates with white people.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:59
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Huge_Midget posted:Everyone that's blaming this election on racist rust belt whites haven't learned a goddamn thing and that's the most hilarious thing for me from this whole fiasco. The Democratic establishment chose the candidate with the most baggage and known likability issue, ignored a genuine grassroots populist candidate and shouted down his supporters, and then have the balls to continue to blame poor white people and call them racist when a good percentage of them voted Obama into office and for his second term. So would you say that the election of President Obama makes America post-racial then? Trump was not elected by people crossing party lines. People who voted for Obama in 2008/2012 did not vote for Trump. Your premise is flawed
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Nov 9, 2016 20:59
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Salvor_Hardin posted:I'm aware this is sore loser talk but there really should be more outrage about the EC system. This is the 2nd time in 4 elections that the popular vote did not win and it is just insane. Yeah but without an electoral college, politicians would listen to people in urban areas. Imagine what kind of havoc that would wreak on the nation. Imagine who that mob would elect as president. It's just too dangerous.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:59
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Salvor_Hardin posted:I'm aware this is sore loser talk but there really should be more outrage about the EC system. This is the 2nd time in 4 elections that the popular vote did not win and it is just insane. There's a coalition of states that have signed an agreement that, once 270 EC votes worth of states into the agreement, they will all bind their EC votes to the winner of the popular vote. Which would in essence invalidate the EC because the controlling interest of EC votes would all go to the winner of the popular vote.
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Nov 9, 2016 21:00
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ilkhan posted:You say that, and what I hear is "Race is the possible reason to vote for anyone at any time. It is the only issue that has any relevance at all." which is blatantly and completely false. Your single issue may not be my single issue which may not be some other voter's single issue. You don't get to decide what is important to someone else. It's a pretty important issue! If your voting logic goes "hmmm, on the one hand, he supports agents of the state murdering innocent black people and promised to deport immigrants and Muslims, but on the other hand, he's good on gun rights*" then you think gun rights are more important than the rights of black people to be not murdered. If you're a single-issue voter, that just means that other issues - like civil rights for non-white people - don't matter to you. Is it racist to be perfectly fine with the fact that your preferred presidential candidate literally wants to revoke the citizenship of anyone with brown skin and supports the state-sponsored murder of anyone with black skin? I'm pretty sure the answer is "yes". Even if you're not voting for him because he's a racist, you're choosing to knowingly tolerate his racism and vote in support of him knowing full well what he will try to do to minorities when elected. paranoid randroid posted:hot take but i think the biggest failure of leftist ideology at the moment is calving off race and economics into discrete issues without overlap. this creates a Blind Men and the Elephant situation - Jacobin finds the economics facet of Trumpism and declares it to be a class issue; Slate finds the white identity politics and declares it to be a racial issue. On the other hand, most of the time when someone comes down this road it's just an excuse for a white leftist to abandon race issues altogether and focus exclusively on the economic aspect while ignoring racial issues entirely because they, naively lacking a full understanding of racism, assume that the rising tide will necessarily lift non-white boats along with the white boats. Even Bernie had to struggle with that to some degree, and his supporters certainly made a point of obnoxiously demonizing minorities for "voting against their own interests" by supporting Hillary (though many of those same supporters are now accusing Hillary supporters of being "elitists" who look down on white people). Ratoslov posted:Y'know, I've been considering making this post (but snarkier) repeatedly all day. It really seems like a lot of the posters here don't think that the masses have any agency whatsoever, and only political elites have it. If a elite does something, and a group of voters responds, it is the elite whose fault that response is. The masses aren't people, they're a volitionless automaton that inputs words and outputs votes or no votes. It's very odd. On the other hand, what if the elite does something and the voters don't respond? The thing that strikes me most about the Republican obstructionism that characterized Obama's administration was how much voters rewarded it. Sure, Obama won his second term, but the Republicans gained more seats in Congress in 2010 and 2014 than they lost in 2012, many moderate Republicans were replaced by Tea Partiers in those years, and of course now there's the 2016 Republican blowout. The Congressional GOP has been heavily rewarded for being poo poo and blocking attempt after attempt to help Americans and fix the economy.
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Nov 9, 2016 20:59
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Aerox posted:This is where I'm at and I don't know the answer to it. I know not every lower class rural voter is a racist, but I don't know exactly how you appeal to that general demographic while still maintaining an overall racially progressive message. You're overthinking this. You don't need to convince them to vote for your whole package deal of a million different policies, you just need them to vote for you. Pick some specific issues they care about and offer some solutions. Go to white middle America and tell them how much you care about the heroin epidemic and what your plan is to fix it for their community. Tell them about your plan to bring jobs to the area through this great new training program you're going to pay for by taxing Wall Street. Be sincere about these things, and make them believe you care about them. Because you do care about them. You won't get everyone, but you'll get enough. Trump literally won this election by 110k votes spread between MI, WI, and PA. On a broader scale, fund candidates who will do this at the state and local levels for as many elections as you can, so Rs aren't running unopposed in a million seats, and to help develop local party infrastructure and a deeper bench.
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Nov 9, 2016 21:01
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trash person posted:I am very interested to see how people react to Trump when he doesn't do 90% of what he promised. Like it's pretty clear a lot of Trump's campaign 'promises' were him just saying whatever it is he thought the base wanted to hear. They don't care. He made their team win so nothing short of global disaster will phase his support on the Right. z0glin Warchief posted:
Yeah but Trump is the worst regarded nominee in modern US history. As soon as they find someone with less than a billion skeletons in his closet who can stay on message and project professionalism (think Pence) they'll do even better. Unzip and Attack fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Nov 9, 2016 |
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Nov 9, 2016 21:01
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Blaming the people who voted for Trump won't make matters any better. If anything it would make things [i]worse[/]. Whether it's true or not a significant amount of white Trump voters feel victimized/marginalized/ignored. Further insulting them would just reinforce their beliefs.
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Nov 9, 2016 21:00
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Guy Goodbody posted:Yeah, if you try to cast American politics as "whites vs. everyone else," you don't get to be mad when white people vote like they believe you The gently caress are you supposed to do when the only message that seems to resonate are "those dirty brown people took your jerbs!!"??
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Nov 9, 2016 21:00
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Fojar38 posted:Really think it's weird to be blaming either Bernie or Clinton supporters when a much larger factor in this rout was the news media For real, I think the biggest reason Clinton lost was because of how unending and one-sided the media coverage of the election was. I don't have it on me right now but there are a few graphs that show how totally pervasive the email/investigation stuff was, and how almost all coverage of Hillary involved emails. Trump didn't actually siphon off that many voters from the Dems; the amount of votes he got was consistent with McCain and Romney (even less so). There was a huge enthusiasm gap and I'm not sure if there was anything Hillary could've done to change it by virtue of being Hillary Clinton.
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Nov 9, 2016 21:00
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paranoid randroid posted:sad thing is that Coates hit the nail square on the head when he said that the real shame of the left is that Bernie Sanders, a candidate who was pretty much testing the limits of accepted politics in America, was so drat mainstream in his views on race. radical economic reforms are on the table right up until you bring up the R Word, and suddenly we have to be practical and realistic. This. A Democratic Party that pushes no war but the class war will push black people out and run on an anti-immigrant platform in some capacity. In the current political climate you can only have one.
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Nov 9, 2016 21:02
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ilkhan posted:I just find it painful that the common thread here is that anybody who voted for him (which does not include me, by the way) is automatically a racist piece of poo poo. As if there weren't dozens of other possible reason to vote for him or dozens of reasons to vote against Clinton. Focusing all your hatred in one direction feels good, but it ignores the other causes and just pisses off the people who did vote for him for other reasons and makes them even stronger proponents. If you want to change their minds, it might help to actually listen to their complaints (which is, ironically enough, one of their complaints in the first place). The vast majority of people voted for him in spite of that racism, not because of it. Please name something, a policy, a platform plank, that's both plausible and better than what Clinton offered. You can't. But there's one plank he offered that's better than any progressive plank from ANYONE on the left, and that's the restoration of old school white privilege and power. Period. White people can keep up with this handwringing about how they didn't really do what they did, but at the end of the day, 57 million people voted for him, and 93% of them were white. You keep telling us to "not worry about that 93%, focus on the 7%", because that gives you an out to keep associating yourselves with sexist and racist pieces of poo poo.
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Nov 9, 2016 21:01
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Guy Goodbody posted:Yeah, if you try to cast American politics as "whites vs. everyone else," you don't get to be mad when white people vote like they believe you White people cast American politics as "whites vs everyone else," do you genuinely believe minorities take it upon ourselves to be the aggrieved party for shits and giggles?
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Nov 9, 2016 21:02
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Squashing Machine posted:Dear family, it is without regret that I will not be attending Christmas this year, in light of a joke my younger brother made in 1998 where he claimed erroneously to be of Chinese descent and to have urinated, with malice aforethought, in my Coke I'm glad electing a fascist with a VP who is virulently anti-LGBT is a joke to you, good for you.
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Nov 9, 2016 21:02
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Reminder: all it takes is one try-hard county clerk or something to raise a "religious objection to marriage equality" case to the SCOTUS next year to probably nullify a shitload of gay marriages if Trump's judge nominee has his druthers.
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Nov 9, 2016 21:03
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trash person posted:Blaming the people who voted for Trump won't make matters any better. If anything it would make things [i]worse[/]. Whether it's true or not a significant amount of white Trump voters feel victimized/marginalized/ignored. Further insulting them would just reinforce their beliefs. Lmao gently caress off with this poo poo thread. "Oh but the Trump supporters' feelings guys." How many Muslim and Hispanic families are terrified they'll be harassed, or deported? How many black people will live in fear of national stop and frisk? How many gay people will live in fear of marriage annulment? gently caress people who voted Trump.
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Nov 9, 2016 21:04
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Kurr de la Cruz posted:The gently caress are you supposed to do when the only message that seems to resonate are "those dirty brown people took your jerbs!!"?? That's simply not true. Don't let the right-wing paint itself as the savior of the working class.
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Nov 9, 2016 21:04
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trash person posted:Blaming the people who voted for Trump won't make matters any better. If anything it would make things [i]worse[/]. Whether it's true or not a significant amount of white Trump voters feel victimized/marginalized/ignored. Further insulting them would just reinforce their beliefs. The problem is those exact people are blaming other ethnic and racial groups for their problems right now and hate groups are becoming bold enough to act in public again. Is this just another case where we can't hurt the feelings of white people but minorities are expected to be better? You can admit that Trump stoked the racism of white people in general (not limited to poor and/or rural) and that the Democrats made huge miscalculations which cost them the election regardless of that.
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Nov 9, 2016 21:04
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