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P.d0t posted:I'm no expert or anything, but I think some of the talk a few pages back kinda has the right idea; the best way to mitigate Trumpism is to basically engage with people susceptible to it, in a meaningful way -- just actually address their concerns from your political angle. This seems like a fair idea. A "don't let them be radicalized" approach. It would be nice if people could talk these issues out like reasonable people, and understand each others' concerns...
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Nov 10, 2016 06:00
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Pinterest Mom posted:Sure, nobody's saying it's enough. But people ITT, and I've been the first, have really consistently dismissed ONDP's broad strategy. I'm clumsily pointing towards the idea that ONDP is the only branch of the NDP that's actually talking to, and for, the kind of people who flipped the presidency yesterday, and that there's stuff we can learn from them. The ONDP never gained any ground in central Ontario though, and a lot of areas here mirror those in the southwest. I dont think it was done intentionally. I do wonder (hope?) that they realized it though and plan on capitalizing on it because the idea of Premier Patrick Brown is just as frightening as President Donald Trump (joke about both being sexual predators and entitled white males who have never heard "No" in their lives goes here).
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Nov 10, 2016 06:01
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P.d0t posted:Ok, so the (i.e.) Democrats should do nothing to win over (some/enough) white male voters and continue to lose elections? Like, that's really my overall point, you can't just discard people you don't like, as a politician, because your job is still to get enough votes to win. Saying "black people have had it bad for a long time, so gently caress you" is not going to win you votes. I do think that the NDP will have to tap into that voter base if it wants to make any progress especially after Trump's victory and that's the unfortunate fact when a majority group's racist views become condoned by a leader in a position of power. Politics is a dirty game and you have to be willing to deal with filth if you wanna get anything done. However it doesn't change that it's hosed up that the natural and accepted reaction for a white person, being confronted with the idea that white people are still racist, is to get really mad and then vote for a guy who panders to white supremacists. "The left made me mad and uncomfortable about being white so I'm gonna spite them and vote the white supremacist however I'm not actually supporting racism." You're just accepting that white people are going to be racist or overly defensive about being accused of racism and that will forever be an immutable fact of political discourse and instead of changing that we just gotta work around it.
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Nov 10, 2016 06:05
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This thread also talks about how PM Harper kept the SoCons under wraps; you can get people to vote for you and win you elections without enacting every dumb, regressive piece of legislation that they could dream up.
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P.d0t posted:I'm no expert or anything, but I think some of the talk a few pages back kinda has the right idea; the best way to mitigate Trumpism is to basically engage with people susceptible to it, in a meaningful way -- just actually address their concerns from your political angle. I'm still not sure how much of Trumps victory is actual KKK style racism vs panicked xenophobia from people who've seen their livelihoods decline year after year for decades. They have nobody to turn to and nowhere to go and so they pressed the big orange button. Calling them racists and bigots, while true to an undetermined extent, does gently caress all to change things. If you want to die with the rest of the world miserable and right it's a great choice though.
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Nov 10, 2016 06:07
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GENDERED SLUR posted:I'm still not sure how much of Trumps victory is actual KKK style racism vs panicked xenophobia from people who've seen their livelihoods decline year after year for decades. They have nobody to turn to and nowhere to go and so they pressed the big orange button. Calling them racists and bigots, while true to an undetermined extent, does gently caress all to change things. If you want to die with the rest of the world miserable and right it's a great choice though. The problem lies in that Trump was telling them who was the cause of their livelihoods disappearing; minorities and the Democrats that protect them. The racism was always up front. Whether they chose to ignore it or go along with it doesnt matter.
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Nov 10, 2016 06:34
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Nah. This was a cultural revolution and the proletariat are gonna start reeducating the intellectuals one at a time.
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Nov 10, 2016 07:16
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A few Canadian authors I know on Twitter are wondering if it is possible to sign up for a Conservative Party membership in time for May 2017 just so they can vote against some of the really bad candidates from getting into power. The idea being is that they don't trust Trudeau to be the effective alternative to fascism in a Canadian context, so a better way would be to just prevent it from happening in the first place by voting against it at the earliest opportunity. The best opportunity to do so would be a red tory candidate like Michael Chong or someone else that manages to be somehow inoffensive. I'm curious what this thread makes of the idea.
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Nov 10, 2016 07:37
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Legit Businessman fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Sep 9, 2022 |
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Nov 10, 2016 07:52
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You can't have the plan without at least sending a few memos. If this is the plan, then we'd better organize so we know we're doing this correctly. However, it's essentially another republican primary they have, so we can't simply vote against a given candidate since it isn't a one-or-the-other like in normal elections, but instead all of them at once. We need to make sure we're all appropriately behind the one who has promised to not be a fascist and to keep the fascist elements in the party down, regardless of their ability for the general election. And we need to do this in enough numbers to actually have any sort of impact. Somebody fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Sep 9, 2022 |
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Nov 10, 2016 07:59
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Legit Businessman fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Sep 9, 2022 |
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Nov 10, 2016 08:08
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Eej posted:You're just accepting that white people are going to be racist or overly defensive about being accused of racism and that will forever be an immutable fact of political discourse and instead of changing that we just gotta work around it. I had a whole long rant typed up, but  tl;dr People can change but you can't just assume you can do that by talking to them however you want. You have to get them in a headspace where they'll listen, and coming out of the gate with "you're a white male and therefore racist so I don't want your vote" isn't going to get politicians electoral victories, nor will it make that person change. Find some common ground with the small stuff and then chip away at big problems, like racism. Attacking people won't make them listen and it won't make them change, and that's not a 'white' thing, it's a human thing.Like the thing that the Atlanta Hawks and (I think?) some other NBA teams are talking about doing, where they're asking their fans in attendance to stand and link arms during the anthem? That's some good poo poo! They're coming at it from "we may not agree on everything, and we may not agree on the solutions, but we agree that we all have to start fixing this together." A simple gesture that finds some common ground, and hopefully gets people talking and making positive action.
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Nov 10, 2016 08:55
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Okay, I think that's fine. It's still hosed up that we have to accept that white people are fragile faberge eggs that must be coddled into acceptance of other races because if you push them too hard they'll vote in a fascist to spite you (but they're totally not racist).
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Nov 10, 2016 09:22
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Eej posted:Okay, I think that's fine. racism isn't (edit) *exclusively* a white people phenomenon, hth But seriously, yes, deprogramming racism isn't done with a cudgel. P.d0t fucked around with this message at 09:42 on Nov 10, 2016 |
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Nov 10, 2016 09:38
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Whenever I've been the subject of racial discrimination all I could feel was towering resentment and bitterness. Good for you if your reaction to being made uncomfortable for being in your own skin is, "boy let's sit down to talk about what we have in common so that your feelings aren't hurt" but I can't loving do it.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:42
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P.d0t posted:racism isn't (edit) *exclusively* a white people phenomenon, hth  Sure it can. Luckily Canada doesn't have anywhere near as bad race relations as our neighbors down south have so we don't have to awkwardly explain to the mothers and fathers of kids who are still getting shot for their skin colour that we just gotta sit these white folk down and find some common ground so we can help them understand what racism is. e: also racism as experienced by a minority class is very different from that experienced by the majority class which can express itself through discrimination at multiple aspects of society. I'm not angry or flaming you but come on man don't even try to equate the two Eej fucked around with this message at 09:56 on Nov 10, 2016 |
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Nov 10, 2016 09:53
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Eej posted:Okay, I think that's fine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPDpcYEdiOg
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Nov 10, 2016 10:08
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Eej posted:Luckily Canada doesn't have anywhere near as bad race relations as our neighbors down south have so we don't have to awkwardly explain to the mothers and fathers of kids who are still getting shot for their skin colour that we just gotta sit these white folk down and find some common ground so we can help them understand what racism is. Tell it to the First Nations peoples.
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Nov 10, 2016 12:35
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Yea. Phone posting so I'm not gonna get you the graph, but scroll through this link and find the graph that compares Indigenous and Black statistics. http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/out-of-sight-out-of-mind-2/ Our problem is worse, we just did a better job of hiding it. A happy side-effect of the reservation and pass system.
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Nov 10, 2016 13:31
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Is anyone considering joining the Conservatives for a year to keep Kellie Leitch away from controlling anything?
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Nov 10, 2016 14:04
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Stickarts posted:Yea. Phone posting so I'm not gonna get you the graph, but scroll through this link and find the graph that compares Indigenous and Black statistics. Our problem doesn't affect a minority group of ~30 million people / 13% of our population. It might be worse in terms of how bad for the individuals but the numbers affected make a big difference here. Anyway white people are so much of a majority in Canada that I think playing to the idea of "white people as a minority" like Trump did wouldn't be nearly as effective. It might work when you're at 60/40 but we're still 20 years away from that stage. e: what's up with the aboriginal population numbers. From 799k in 1996 to 1400k in 2011. Did they change who qualified? Jordan7hm fucked around with this message at 14:23 on Nov 10, 2016 |
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Nov 10, 2016 14:20
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Jesus loving Christ you people. Combatting racism and sexism and all the other isms that plague the human condition effectively has nothing to do with coddling 'fragile white folks' and everything to do with combatting the us vs them mentality that is one of the strongest driving factors of prejudice. You don't do that by immediately viciously attacking those that exhibit this behaviour. That only serves to drive the wedge further. Nobody should condone or excuse these actions but the response should be to point out that these differences that spawn prejudice are either non existent, inconsiquential or dwarfed by similarities that override these differences and strengthen the bond of commonality. Or you can double down on the whole shouting 'You're all racist and evil and deserving of death! Eat poo poo cis white scum!' at people with megaphones from soapboxes, because that's definitely working as intended.
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Nov 10, 2016 14:38
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You can't win. If you don't draw attention to racism nothing changes. If you do draw attention to racism people get upset and vote for fascists. There is no magic bullet.
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Nov 10, 2016 14:56
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"The thing he said isn't a thing any leader should say" is a far cry from "He said this thing so that means you're all hillbilly klan hicks, shame shame shame on all of you for being such an awful basket of deplorables, now vote for me" The Dems messaging on that was bizarre enough without the media and celebs and other talking heads pillorying the voters themselves for dumb poo poo their representative said. flakeloaf fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Nov 10, 2016 |
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Nov 10, 2016 14:59
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Hmm yes we need more dialogue with people like this guy to foster understanding and good feelings https://twitter.com/BilalSpeaks/status/790397004685963266 hmm nah marginalize all rurals till they have nothing but meth and coal rolling to pass the time
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Nov 10, 2016 15:17
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quote:go back to hindi Precious.
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Nov 10, 2016 15:21
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OMG there are RACISTS in CANADA 
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Nov 10, 2016 15:24
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lol dialogue peace and understanding you guys http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/ne...e-you-came-from Kum bay yah my lord Kum bay yah
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Nov 10, 2016 15:38
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Haha how the gently caress did I miss this one http://globalnews.ca/video/2916480/shocking-racist-incident-in-downtown-edmonton-caught-on-camera
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Nov 10, 2016 15:39
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namaste faggots posted:Hmm yes we need more dialogue with people like this guy to foster understanding and good feelings lol dude has an MMA shirt, flip flops, track pants, AND a raised truck look at the terror in his eyes  how is this real
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Nov 10, 2016 15:40
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in conclusion, Canadians are morally superior to Americans in every way
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Nov 10, 2016 15:41
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vyelkin posted:You can't win. No, you can win. It's just difficult, and requires intelligence and putting aside your desire to lash out against the bad things in our society and combat them with tact. quote:
You see this bullshit? This bullshit right here? This is the battle the left loses EVERY DAY You think I suggested that to Blade_of_tyshalle because I'm a misogynist that doesn't like my ability to use sexist language without recourse being taken away? No, you loving moron. I suggested that because there are plenty of reasons to hate Hillary Clinton that are valid and do not include any form of prejudice. Finding out WHY those two armed forces members hate Hillary is the first step in a) correcting misogynistic language and b) possibly gaining two allies in the class struggle. Do they hate Hillary because she's a woman? Yes? Then well poo poo they're actually misogynists and that's gonna be a tough nut to crack. No? Well look at that, probably with a very easy reminder you can correct that misogynistic language by saying that that yes Hillary is a loving terrible person but using that language makes everyone around you think you're a misogynist and not an anti corporatist. These two get their opinion validated, their language corrected and get another buddy to sit down with in the mess hall to share drinks with while talking about eating the rich and hey maybe we should all get involved in politics at the community level? Instead, these two armed forces members get dismissed as misogynist and I get dismissed as defending misogynist language and it's suggested that I also defend homophobic and racist language and a handful of people who are quite possibly all leftists who should be on the same side are at best divided and half of us bitching at each other on the Internet. GG left, you lose again. EvilJoven fucked around with this message at 16:00 on Nov 10, 2016 |
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Nov 10, 2016 15:50
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Risky Bisquick posted:OMG there are RACISTS in CANADA Watch out, you'll hurt EvilJoven's feelings by pointing out white people are racist.
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Nov 10, 2016 15:50
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P.d0t posted:Except in your example, the Rube is actually Just Another Bigot, since he explicitly agrees with the bigoted approach...? JFC, white males are whiny. How on earth did you guys manage to subjugate everyone else with such thin skin.
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Nov 10, 2016 16:11
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The death of progressivism will be by the left and not the right. Those in rural areas have lost a lot in the past decade in terms of jobs and way of life and nothing has done to help them other than "if we do this then in 30 years we'll be back to where we need to be" when in reality the jobs have been lost in a third of that time. If the left does nothing to address this then the racist and bigoted manifestations that come from not living in diverse areas will become dominant. Swallow your lumps, liberals and address these problems or what we won will be used against us. This is how Trump got elected.
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Nov 10, 2016 16:28
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Or we could starve them of education, healthcare and infrastructure. Cheaper and better IMO.
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Nov 10, 2016 16:30
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Starve the beast.
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Nov 10, 2016 16:30
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OSI bean dip posted:The death of progressivism will be by the left and not the right. Those in rural areas have lost a lot in the past decade in terms of jobs and way of life and nothing has done to help them other than "if we do this then in 30 years we'll be back to where we need to be" when in reality the jobs have been lost in a third of that time. If the left does nothing to address this then the racist and bigoted manifestations that come from not living in diverse areas will become dominant. This is the real fundamental problem. Lots of rural jobs have simply been deprecated out of existence, and it's far easier for the people who once held these jobs to blame it on what they don't know (i.e.: immigrants and intellectual elites in their ivory tower) than to understand that these jobs aren't necessary anymore. So of course, Trump promising to bring back all those jobs (nevermind the lack of viability for these jobs in the first place). The world needs to evolve away from this fixation on jobs being a central part of one's identity and life. Who knows what the post-industrial world looks like, quite possibly it implies basic income. Incidentally, this rural crowd would be too proud to accept these "government handouts". Maybe education might help them see that the world is evolving and that it's not the fault of minorities. But that'd be drinking the kool-aid of the filthy elites. More likely we can only wait until rural regions slowly die out.
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Nov 10, 2016 17:03
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Jan posted:This is the real fundamental problem. Lots of rural jobs have simply been deprecated out of existence, and it's far easier for the people who once held these jobs to blame it on what they don't know (i.e.: immigrants and intellectual elites in their ivory tower) than to understand that these jobs aren't necessary anymore. So of course, Trump promising to bring back all those jobs (nevermind the lack of viability for these jobs in the first place). The problem with basic income right now is that you need to remove the stigma that it is a form of welfare, which in itself isn't awful but there has been much done to deride that word. I agree with you that we need to move beyond the concept of a "job", but we're barely just getting started in terms of automation and for the foreseeable future we still need to work with that three letter word. It won't be until I am in my retirement age that the idea of not working because I need to will be on the horizon. Right now that threat just looms for the jobs that are easy to already automate. Just wait until the entire trucking industry starts to move towards self-driving vehicles in the next 10 years and we'll begin to talk about this more seriously.
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Nov 10, 2016 17:08
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Jan posted:Incidentally, this rural crowd would be too proud to accept these "government handouts". Seeing as this is literally what small farms already live by the grace of, you'd think it might be an easier sell.
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Nov 10, 2016 17:10
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Imagine what's going to happen when entire logistics, accounting and legal departments are replaced by a tiny handful of people inputting data into a couple of servers racked up in the corner of some data center somewhere. That's coming sooner than a lot of white collar workers realize and it's to be such a massive wake up call for the white collar world when it does.
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Nov 10, 2016 17:13
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