SUK ZONE: it's all a pointless exercise and you're just screaming into the void

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > SUK ZONE: it's all a pointless exercise and you're just screaming into the void

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Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

Fidel Castronaut posted:

It's really tragic to think about Huma. She was really going places and doing things and then her husband was a sex addict and her boss was the biggest loving loser ever. I assume Hillary is still Huma's boss, which is the greatest indignity: she's going to tend to an irrelevant rich woman until her heart gives out.

If he was a sex addict it would've been more Huma-nizing.

# ? Nov 10, 2016 09:41

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# ? May 13, 2024 00:53

Sheng-Ji Yang: Mar 5, 2014

https://twitter.com/poundstoremike/status/796480091060572160

# ? Nov 10, 2016 09:41

Pants Donkey: Nov 13, 2011

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

During mass demonstrations at the gate, Nixon was terrified that the drat hippies could pour over the WH lawn and lynch them all at any moment. Trump was shook at Chicago. It might not accomplish anything today, but keeping Nixon in fear of the mob had some positive outcomes.

I guess I'm thinking of OWS, which more or less petered out, and the general atmosphere today that seems hostile of any kind of protest that isn't astroturfed.

Keeping Trump on edge is all well and good, but it does us little if we have nothing to offer in 2018.

# ? Nov 10, 2016 09:42

Neeksy: Mar 29, 2007; Hej min vän, hur står det till?

I genuinely feel annoyed by the Hillary primary argument against Bernie supporters that we needed to shut up about the party's issues and just go with Clinton because she was going to be the safest choice and that the party apparatus was always in the right, that pointing out how unpopular neoliberal economics was with the 2008 coalition would just weaken her chances. I feel stupid for accepting the loss and carrying water for a candidate I knew was weak and couldn't project any kind of aspiration beyond maintaining the same stuff I was annoyed about the Obama administration.

# ? Nov 10, 2016 09:44

Pants Donkey: Nov 13, 2011

Neeksy posted:

I genuinely feel annoyed by the Hillary primary argument against Bernie supporters that we needed to shut up about the party's issues and just go with Clinton because she was going to be the safest choice and that the party apparatus was always in the right, that pointing out how unpopular neoliberal economics was with the 2008 coalition would just weaken her chances. I feel stupid for accepting the loss and carrying water for a candidate I knew was weak and couldn't project any kind of aspiration beyond maintaining the same stuff I was annoyed about the Obama administration.

In their defense, she had most of the tools that conventional wisdom would lead us to believe she'd have an easier time.

But we were facing an unconventional opponent, where wisdom like "most money wins" went flying out the window.

# ? Nov 10, 2016 09:46

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

rum sodomy Rainbow Dash posted:

I guess I'm thinking of OWS, which more or less petered out, and the general atmosphere today that seems hostile of any kind of protest that isn't astroturfed.

Keeping Trump on edge is all well and good, but it does us little if we have nothing to offer in 2018.

OWS was brutally repressed by massive coordinated police action across the country, but it failed in terms of being a new form of politics.

If protesters today reject the idea of seizing power for themselves, then it will be a lot of ultimately wasted effort, but right now people need a carnivale.

# ? Nov 10, 2016 09:46

Mia Wasikowska: Oct 7, 2006

the intelligencia lost big time. fuckin mandarins (not racist)

# ? Nov 10, 2016 09:46

Pants Donkey: Nov 13, 2011

Speaking of money: over 1.3 billion to lose an election.

Incredible.

# ? Nov 10, 2016 09:47

Alpha 1: Feb 17, 2012

VS, is there anything you think the Clinton campaign did right during this campaign? In the primaries or general. I'm wondering if you think there was anything positive we can take away from this.

# ? Nov 10, 2016 09:47

Bro Dad: Mar 26, 2010

the democrats will now run the only possible candidate worse than hillary: a smug west coast elitist who loves banks almost as much as tech companies

newsom/booker 2020 yall

# ? Nov 10, 2016 09:47

Mia Wasikowska: Oct 7, 2006

Alpha 1 posted:

VS, is there anything you think the Clinton campaign did right during this campaign? In the primaries or general. I'm wondering if you think there was anything positive we can take away from this.

i'm not vs, but i have no doubt they executed a lot of the little things very well. it was the big picture stuff that was foggy, and also, well, the candidate was... bad...

# ? Nov 10, 2016 09:50

Venom Snake: Feb 19, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

Alpha 1 posted:

VS, is there anything you think the Clinton campaign did right during this campaign? In the primaries or general. I'm wondering if you think there was anything positive we can take away from this.

They were right in that democrats need minorities bigly or it's game over. The intentions a lot of plans behind a lot were good; the execution was loving atrocious. They made a semi-left platform as an olive branch then never talked about it once.

(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)

# ? Nov 10, 2016 09:51

Mia Wasikowska: Oct 7, 2006

Bro Dad posted:

the democrats will now run the only possible candidate worse than hillary: a smug west coast elitist who loves banks almost as much as tech companies

newsom/booker 2020 yall

yeah i mean, people are saying 'oh the leftists are gonna take control of the power vacuum' but this seems just as likely from my pov. of course we should work to make sure it doesnt happen

# ? Nov 10, 2016 09:51

NecroMonster: Jan 4, 2009

this wasn't an election about "execution", this was an election about appeals to the disenfranchised and only one candidate really made any (they were all loving bad, but bad is better than none)

# ? Nov 10, 2016 09:52

Bro Dad: Mar 26, 2010

Zas posted:

yeah i mean, people are saying 'oh the leftists are gonna take control of the power vacuum' but this seems just as likely from my pov. of course we should work to make sure it doesnt happen

yep. and people like loving charlie crist will be shilling hard asking all the gabbard supporters to abandon their childish idealism and unite behind Their Candidate

# ? Nov 10, 2016 09:52

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

Bro Dad posted:

yep. and people like loving charlie crist will be shilling hard asking all the gabbard supporters to abandon their childish idealism and unite behind Their Candidate

Are we at the Farce after Tragedy stage of this or are we already past it?

# ? Nov 10, 2016 09:54

Pants Donkey: Nov 13, 2011

If that happens they'll probably lose 2020 even harder. I don't think millenials and others are going to forget this election so easily. I've already seen angry tweets about people holding their nose to vote for Clinton only to let Trump win. You're not going to convince them to vote for tepid neoliberalism a second time.

# ? Nov 10, 2016 09:54

mrmcd: Feb 22, 2003; Pictured: The only good cop (a fictional one).

Venom Snake posted:

They were right in that democrats need minorities bigly or it's game over. The intentions a lot of plans behind a lot were good; the execution was loving atrocious. They made a semi-left platform as an olive branch then never talked about it once.

I thought they did a pretty good job of pointing out how awful Trump is, and not cowering in fear like all his primary opponents. There just wasn't a message for Clinton.

# ? Nov 10, 2016 09:56

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

rum sodomy Rainbow Dash posted:

If that happens they'll probably lose 2020 even harder. I don't think millenials and others are going to forget this election so easily. I've already seen angry tweets about people holding their nose to vote for Clinton only to let Trump win. You're not going to convince them to vote for tepid neoliberalism a second time.

Liberals are dumb as Hell, though. They could be working as we speak to make sure there's no more leftwing insurgency in the primaries again. If I was one of those power coveting creeps, it's exactly what I'd do.

# ? Nov 10, 2016 09:56

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

mrmcd posted:

I thought they did a pretty good job of pointing out how awful Trump is, and not cowering in fear like all his primary opponents. There just wasn't a message for Clinton.

A problem all of his primary opponents also had.

# ? Nov 10, 2016 09:58

anime was right: Jun 27, 2008; death is certain
keep yr cool

rum sodomy Rainbow Dash posted:

If that happens they'll probably lose 2020 even harder. I don't think millenials and others are going to forget this election so easily. I've already seen angry tweets about people holding their nose to vote for Clinton only to let Trump win. You're not going to convince them to vote for tepid neoliberalism a second time.

yup, in my millenial facebook bubble everyone is loving livid. all the smarmy we-told-you-so-ing a lot of people had to put up with just turned to democratic poison.

the establishment is done for our age unless they get another obama.

# ? Nov 10, 2016 09:57

Bro Dad: Mar 26, 2010

you'll get julian castro and like it

# ? Nov 10, 2016 10:01

Mia Wasikowska: Oct 7, 2006

as dumb and wrong as accelerationism is, i do think the w. administration helped make both liberals and the left sharper. we should do that again, but this time moreso

# ? Nov 10, 2016 10:02

Bro Dad: Mar 26, 2010

Castro 2020: Please Don't Look At My Face

# ? Nov 10, 2016 10:02

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

Zas posted:

as dumb and wrong as accelerationism is, i do think the w. administration helped make both liberals and the left sharper. we should do that again, but this time moreso

It actually made Liberals a lot dumber, because it elevated wonkery to the halls of power and eventually we ended up here. We have to be way smarter and more organized than the left opposition of the Bush years.

# ? Nov 10, 2016 10:05

NecroMonster: Jan 4, 2009

i'm not sure another Obama would do anything for the centrist dem establishment.

Obama promised change and didn't manage jack-squattery. that's not even mostly his fault, but it's still a death-knell for middle of the road centrist third-way incrementalism

# ? Nov 10, 2016 10:06

NoNotTheMindProbe: Aug 9, 2010; pony porn was here

So a loving Archdruid ended up being smarter than all the Democrats, Goons and Pundits put together. This is from January 20th:

http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com.au/2016/01/donald-trump-and-politics-of-resentment.html

quote:

Donald Trump and the Politics of Resentment
Of all the predictions I made for the new year in my post two weeks ago, the one that seems to have stirred up the most distress and derision is my suggestion that the most likely person to be standing up there with his hand on a Bible next January, taking the oath of office as the next president of the United States, is Donald Trump. That prediction wasn�t made to annoy people, entertaining as that can be from time to time; nor is it merely a reaction to Trump�s meteoric rise in the polls and the abject failure of any of his forgettable Republican rivals even to slow him down.

The rise of Donald Trump, rather, marks the arrival of a turning point I�ve discussed more than once in these essays already. Like the other turning points whose impending appearance on the stage of the future has been outlined here, it�s not the end of the world; it�s thus a source of amusement to me to recall all those Republicans who insisted they were going to flee the country if Obama won reelection, and are still here, when I hear Democrats saying they�ll do the same thing if Trump wins. Still, there�s a difference of some importance between the two, because in terms of the historical trajectory of the United States, Trump is a far more significant figure than Barack Obama will ever be.

Despite the empty rhetoric about hope and change that surrounded his 2008 campaign, after all, Obama continued the policies of his predecessor George W. Bush so unswervingly that we may as well call those policies�the conventional wisdom or, rather, the conventional folly of early 21st-century American politics�the Dubyobama consensus. Trump�s candidacy, and in some ways that of his Democratic rival Bernard Sanders as well, marks the point at which the blowback from those policies has become a massive political fact. That this blowback isn�t taking the form desired by many people on the leftward end of things is hardly surprising; it was never going to do so, because the things about the Dubyobama consensus that made blowback inevitable are not the things to which the left objects.

To understand what follows, it�s going to be necessary to ask my readers�especially, though not only, those who consider themselves liberals, or see themselves inhabiting some other position left of center in the convoluted landscape of today�s American politics�to set aside two common habits. The first is the reflexive resort to sneering mockery that so often makes up for the absence of meaningful political thought in the US�again, especially but by no means only on the left. The dreary insults that have been flung so repetitively at Donald Trump over the course of his campaign are fine examples of the species: �deranged Cheeto,� �tomato-headed moron,� �delusional cheese creature,� and so on.

The centerpiece of most of these insults, when they�re not simply petulant schoolboy taunts aimed at Trump�s physical appearance, is the claim that he�s stupid. This is hardly surprising, as a lot of people on the leftward end of American culture love to use the kind of demeaning language that attributes idiocy to those who disagree with them. Thus it probably needs to be pointed out here that Trump is anything but stupid. He�s extraordinarily clever, and one measure of his cleverness is the way that he�s been able to lure so many of his opponents into behaving in ways that strengthen his appeal to the voters that matter most to his campaign. In case you�re wondering if you belong to that latter category, dear reader, if you like to send out tweets comparing Trump�s hair to Cheese Whiz, no, you�re not.

So that�s the first thing that has to be set aside to make sense of the Trump phenomenon. The second is going to be rather more challenging for many of my readers: the notion that the only divisions in American society that matter are those that have some basis in biology. Skin color, gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, disability�these are the lines of division in society that Americans like to talk about, whatever their attitudes to the people who fall on one side or another of those lines. (Please note, by the way, the four words above: �some basis in biology.� I�m not saying that these categories are purely biological in nature; every one of them is defined in practice by a galaxy of cultural constructs and presuppositions, and the link to biology is an ostensive category marker rather than a definition. I insert this caveat because I�ve noticed that a great many people go out of their way to misunderstand the point I�m trying to make here.)

Are the lines of division just named important? Of course they are. Discriminatory treatment on the basis of those factors is a pervasive presence in American life today. The facts remain that there are other lines of division in American society that lack that anchor in biology, that some of these are at least as pervasive in American life as those listed above�and that some of the most important of these are taboo topics, subjects that most people in the US today will not talk about.

Here�s a relevant example. It so happens that you can determine a huge amount about the economic and social prospects of people in America today by asking one remarkably simple question: how do they get most of their income? Broadly speaking�there are exceptions, which I�ll get to in a moment�it�s from one of four sources: returns on investment, a monthly salary, an hourly wage, or a government welfare check. People who get most of their income from one of those four things have a great many interests in common, so much so that it�s meaningful to speak of the American people as divided into an investment class, a salary class, a wage class, and a welfare class.

It�s probably necessary to point out explicitly here that these classes aren�t identical to the divisions that Americans like to talk about. That is, there are plenty of people with light-colored skin in the welfare class, and plenty of people with darker skin in the wage class. Things tend to become a good deal more lily-white in the two wealthier classes, though even there you do find people of color. In the same way, women, gay people, disabled people, and so on are found in all four classes, and how they�re treated depends a great deal on which of these classes they�re in. If you�re a disabled person, for example, your chances of getting meaningful accommodations to help you deal with your disability are by and large considerably higher if you bring home a salary than they are if you work for a wage.

As noted above, there are people who don�t fall into those divisions. I�m one of them; as a writer, I get most of my income from royalties on book sales, which means that a dollar or so from every book of mine that sells via most channels, and rather less than that if it�s sold by Amazon�those big discounts come straight out of your favorite authors� pockets�gets mailed to me twice a year. There are so few people who make their living this way that the royalty classlet isn�t a significant factor in American society. The same is true of most of the other ways of making a living in the US today. Even the once-mighty profit class, the people who get their income from the profit they make on their own business activities, is small enough these days that it lacks a significant collective presence.

There�s a vast amount that could be said about the four major classes just outlined, but I want to focus on the political dimension, because that�s where they take on overwhelming relevance as the 2016 presidential campaign lurches on its way. Just as the four classes can be identified by way of a very simple question, the political dynamite that�s driving the blowback mentioned earlier can be seen by way of another simple question: over the last half century or so, how have the four classes fared?

The answer, of course, is that three of the four have remained roughly where they were. The investment class has actually had a bit of a rough time, as many of the investment vehicles that used to provide it with stable incomes�certificates of deposit, government bonds, and so on�have seen interest rates drop through the floor. Still, alternative investments and frantic government manipulations of stock market prices have allowed most people in the investment class to keep up their accustomed lifestyles.

The salary class, similarly, has maintained its familiar privileges and perks through a half century of convulsive change. Outside of a few coastal urban areas currently in the grip of speculative bubbles, people whose income comes mostly from salaries can generally afford to own their homes, buy new cars every few years, leave town for annual vacations, and so on. On the other end of the spectrum, the welfare class has continued to scrape by pretty much as before, dealing with the same bleak realities of grinding poverty, intrusive government bureacracy, and a galaxy of direct and indirect barriers to full participation in the national life, as their equivalents did back in 1966.

And the wage class? Over the last half century, the wage class has been destroyed.

In 1966 an American family with one breadwinner working full time at an hourly wage could count on having a home, a car, three square meals a day, and the other ordinary necessities of life, with some left over for the occasional luxury. In 2016, an American family with one breadwinner working full time at an hourly wage is as likely as not to end up living on the street, and a vast number of people who would happily work full time even under those conditions can find only part-time or temporary work when they can find any jobs at all. The catastrophic impoverishment and immiseration of the American wage class is one of the most massive political facts of our time�and it�s also one of the most unmentionable. Next to nobody is willing to talk about it, or even admit that it happened.

The destruction of the wage class was largely accomplished by way of two major shifts in American economic life. The first was the dismantling of the American industrial economy and its replacement by Third World sweatshops; the second was mass immigration from Third World countries. Both of these measures are ways of driving down wages�not, please note, salaries, returns on investment, or welfare payments�by slashing the number of wage-paying jobs, on the one hand, while boosting the number of people competing for them on the other. Both, in turn, were actively encouraged by government policies and, despite plenty of empty rhetoric on one or the other side of the Congressional aisle, both of them had, for all practical purposes, bipartisan support from the political establishment.

It�s probably going to be necessary to talk a bit about that last point. Both parties, despite occasional bursts of crocodile tears for American workers and their families, have backed the offshoring of jobs to the hilt. Immigration is a slightly more complex matter; the Democrats claim to be in favor of it, the Republicans now and then claim to oppose it, but what this means in practice is that legal immigration is difficult but illegal immigration is easy. The result was the creation of an immense work force of noncitizens who have no economic or political rights they have any hope of enforcing, which could then be used�and has been used, over and over again�to drive down wages, degrade working conditions, and advance the interests of employers over those of wage-earning employees.

The next point that needs to be discussed here�and it�s the one at which a very large number of my readers are going to balk�is who benefited from the destruction of the American wage class. It�s long been fashionable in what passes for American conservatism to insist that everyone benefits from the changes just outlined, or to claim that if anybody doesn�t, it�s their own fault. It�s been equally popular in what passes for American liberalism to insist that the only people who benefit from those changes are the villainous uber-capitalists who belong to the 1%. Both these are evasions, because the destruction of the wage class has disproportionately benefited one of the four classes I sketched out above: the salary class.

Here�s how that works. Since the 1970s, the salary class lifestyle sketched out above�suburban homeownership, a new car every couple of years, vacations in Mazatlan, and so on�has been an anachronism: in James Howard Kunstler�s useful phrase, an arrangement without a future. It was wholly a product of the global economic dominance the United States wielded in the wake of the Second World War, when every other major industrial nation on the planet had its factories pounded to rubble by the bomber fleets of the warring powers, and the oil wells of Pennsylvania, Texas, and California pumped more oil than the rest of the planet put together. That dominance went away in a hurry, though, when US conventional petroleum production peaked in 1970, and the factories of Europe and Asia began to outcompete America�s industrial heartland.

The only way for the salary class to maintain its lifestyle in the teeth of those transformations was to force down the cost of goods and services relative to the average buying power of the salary class. Because the salary class exercised (and still exercises) a degree of economic and political influence disproportionate to its size, this became the order of the day in the 1970s, and it remains the locked-in political consensus in American public life to this day. The destruction of the wage class was only one consequence of that project�the spectacular decline in quality of the whole range of manufactured goods for sale in America, and the wholesale gutting of the national infrastructure, are other results�but it�s the consequence that matters in terms of today�s politics.

It�s worth noting, along these same lines, that every remedy that�s been offered to the wage class by the salary class has benefited the salary class at the expense of the wage class. Consider the loud claims of the last couple of decades that people left unemployed by the disappearance of wage-paying jobs could get back on board the bandwagon of prosperity by going to college and getting job training. That didn�t work out well for the people who signed up for the student loans and took the classes�getting job training, after all, isn�t particularly helpful if the jobs for which you�re being trained don�t exist, and so a great many former wage earners finished their college careers with no better job prospects than they had before, and hundreds of thousands of dollars of student loan debt burdening them into the bargain. For the banks and colleges that pushed the loans and taught the classes, though, these programs were a cash cow of impressive scale, and the people who work for banks and colleges are mostly salary class.

Attempts by people in the wage class to mount any kind of effective challenge to the changes that have gutted their economic prospects and consigned them to a third-rate future have done very little so far. To some extent, that�s a function of the GOP�s sustained effort to lure wage class voters into backing Republican candidates on religious and moral grounds. It�s the mirror image of the ruse that�s been used by the Democratic party on a galaxy of interests on the leftward end of things�granted, the Democrats aren�t doing a thing about the issues that matter most to you, but neither are the Republicans, so you vote for the party that offends you least. Right? Sure, if you want to guarantee that the interests that matter most to you never get addressed at all.

There�s a further barrier, though, and that�s the response of the salary class across the board�left, right, middle, you name it�to any attempt by the wage class to bring up the issues that matter to it. On the rare occasions when this happens in the public sphere, the spokespeople of the wage class get shouted down with a double helping of the sneering mockery I discussed toward the beginning of this post. The same thing happens on a different scale on those occasions when the same thing happens in private. If you doubt this�and you probably do, if you belong to the salary class�try this experiment: get a bunch of your salary class friends together in some casual context and get them talking about ordinary American working guys. What you�ll hear will range from crude caricatures and one-dimensional stereotypes right on up to bona fide hate speech. People in the wage class are aware of this; they�ve heard it all; they�ve been called stupid, ignorant, etc., ad nauseam for failing to agree with whatever bit of self-serving dogma some representative of the salary class tried to push on them.

And that, dear reader, is where Donald Trump comes in.

The man is brilliant. I mean that without the smallest trace of mockery. He�s figured out that the most effective way to get the wage class to rally to his banner is to get himself attacked, with the usual sort of shrill mockery, by the salary class. The man�s worth several billion dollars�do you really think he can�t afford to get the kind of hairstyle that the salary class finds acceptable? Of course he can; he�s deliberately chosen otherwise, because he knows that every time some privileged buffoon in the media or on the internet trots out another round of insults directed at his failure to conform to salary class ideas of fashion, another hundred thousand wage class voters recall the endless sneering putdowns they�ve experienced from the salary class and think, �Trump�s one of us.�

The identical logic governs his deliberate flouting of the current rules of acceptable political discourse. Have you noticed that every time Trump says something that sends the pundits into a swivet, and the media starts trying to convince itself and its listeners that this time he�s gone too far and his campaign will surely collapse in humiliation, his poll numbers go up? What he�s saying is exactly the sort of thing that you�ll hear people say in working class taverns and bowling alleys when subjects such as illegal immigration and Muslim jihadi terrorism come up for discussion. The shrieks of the media simply confirm, in the minds of the wage class voters to whom his appeal is aimed, that he�s one of them, an ordinary Joe with sensible ideas who�s being dissed by the suits.

Notice also how many of Trump�s unacceptable-to-the-pundits comments have focused with laser precision on the issue of immigration. That�s a well-chosen opening wedge, as cutting off illegal immigration is something that the GOP has claimed to support for a while now. As Trump broadens his lead, in turn, he�s started to talk about the other side of the equation�the offshoring of jobs�as his recent jab at Apple�s overseas sweatshops shows. The mainstream media�s response to that jab does a fine job of proving the case argued above: �If smartphones were made in the US, we�d have to pay more for them!� And of course that�s true: the salary class will have to pay more for its toys if the wage class is going to have decent jobs that pay enough to support a family. That this is unthinkable for so many people in the salary class�that they�re perfectly happy allowing their electronics to be made for starvation wages in an assortment of overseas hellholes, so long as this keeps the price down�may help explain the boiling cauldron of resentment into which Trump is so efficiently tapping.

It�s by no means certain that Trump will ride that resentment straight to the White House, though at this moment it does seem like the most likely outcome. Still, I trust none of my readers are naive enough to think that a Trump defeat will mean the end of the phenomenon that�s lifted him to front runner status in the teeth of everything the political establishment can throw at him. I see the Trump candidacy as a major watershed in American political life, the point at which the wage class�the largest class of American voters, please note�has begun to wake up to its potential power and begin pushing back against the ascendancy of the salary class.

Whether he wins or loses, that pushback is going to be a defining force in American politics for decades to come. Nor is a Trump candidacy anything approaching the worst form that could take. If Trump gets defeated, especially if it�s done by obviously dishonest means, the next leader to take up the cause of the wage class could very well be fond of armbands or, for that matter, of roadside bombs. Once the politics of resentment come into the open, anything can happen�and this is particularly true, it probably needs to be said, when the resentment in question is richly justified by the behavior of many of those against whom it�s directed.

# ? Nov 10, 2016 10:06

Mia Wasikowska: Oct 7, 2006

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

It actually made Liberals a lot dumber, because it elevated wonkery to the halls of power and eventually we ended up here. We have to be way smarter and more organized than the left opposition of the Bush years.

wel, maybe. i haven't really thought about it in detail. also i was yung and stupid at the time.

# ? Nov 10, 2016 10:07

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

NecroMonster posted:

i'm not sure another Obama would do anything for the centrist dem establishment.

Obama promised change and didn't manage jack-squattery. that's not even mostly his fault, but it's still a death-knell for middle of the road centrist third-way incrementalism

He massively expanded the power of the surveillance state, and expanded the prosecution of the Global War on Terror. Now Trump gets to inherit it all and bring back torture to boot. It's worse than a death knell, it's a desiccated corpse paraded down mainstreet in a dance macabre, lest anybody forgets that his legacy is actually poo poo. And Trump is its puppeteer.

Zas posted:

wel, maybe. i haven't really thought about it in detail. also i was yung and stupid at the time.

That was basically the problem. Also me too. :shrug:

# ? Nov 10, 2016 10:08

Wyld Thang: Feb 23, 2016

Bro Dad posted:

you'll get julian castro and like it

"trump's wall is almost finished vote for me to stop the completion"

can't wait. cruz tried the pro-immigration hispanic from texas against trump but i'm sure castro will do it much better guys.

please figure out what policy your party has that appeals to poor whites in north carolina, ohio, michigan, etc.

maybe binge watch a couple seasons of duck dynasty, gold rush, etc. pretend it's hard sci fi and you have to learn how to communicate with the alien life form called 'ruralmanujobless.'

Wyld Thang has issued a correction as of 10:17 on Nov 10, 2016

# ? Nov 10, 2016 10:14

Pants Donkey: Nov 13, 2011

NecroMonster posted:

i'm not sure another Obama would do anything for the centrist dem establishment.

Obama promised change and didn't manage jack-squattery. that's not even mostly his fault, but it's still a death-knell for middle of the road centrist third-way incrementalism

It's kind of his fault for continuing to believe that Republicans were reasonable people and would return kindess unto kindess. Instead they don't care about anything but further their agenda to make him look bad, so they were more than happy to twist concessions he made for them into fatal flaws of his sole design.

Remember the original plans for Obamacare? Not to say it was perfect, but it was really watered down to appease blue dogs because Republicans were never, ever going to work with him.

# ? Nov 10, 2016 10:16

tower time: Jul 30, 2008

An aspect of this defeat that may not seem as obvious comes to mind: Back in 2011, Scott Walker used budgets as an excuse to crack down hard on unions in Wisconsin. Wisconsin was the state with the highest percentage of its workforce unionized and has a long history of progressive politics and labor organizing. Labor unions all over the country have been losing protections for years, and poured every available resource into Wisconsin to stem the tide of union busting measures. The state level democratic party engaged in vigorous protesting that lasted for almost two full years, culminating in a recall election for Governor Walker. The unions and state party poured everything they had into it, but received no financial aid from the DNC. Walker benefited from millions in RNC money to spend on advertising, and wound up retaining his seat in the recall election by 6%.

Walker is still the Governor, Wisconsin broke for Sanders in the democratic primary at a margin of 57-43, and Wisconsin unexpectedly went for Trump in the election. Union workers in nearby states got a solid look at how they could not count on the DNC when they need help. Places like Michigan and Minnesota.

# ? Nov 10, 2016 10:18

Jonny 290: May 5, 2005; [ASK] me about OS/2 Warp

NoNotTheMindProbe posted:

So a loving Archdruid ended up being smarter than all the Democrats, Goons and Pundits put together. This is from January 20th:

http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com.au/2016/01/donald-trump-and-politics-of-resentment.html

this is absolutely monster, thank you. yep.

# ? Nov 10, 2016 10:22

Mia Wasikowska: Oct 7, 2006

here's something about wisconsin: sanders won the primary ofc but feingold lost his senate race. does that signify?? too drunk and tired to work out the deets

# ? Nov 10, 2016 10:22

Mia Wasikowska: Oct 7, 2006

but im guessing feingold wasnt short at all on economic populist rhetoric. and he still lost. so what does that mean

# ? Nov 10, 2016 10:24

NecroMonster: Jan 4, 2009

that druid report article isn't nearly perfect, gives donald a better appraisal than i believe he deserves, and comes off a whole lot more "optimistic" about the future than I would be.

but it's still pretty loving good

# ? Nov 10, 2016 10:26

Flesh Forge: Jan 31, 2011; LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT MY DOG

Both parties keep punting the interior US back and forth and never spend much effort or attention on them. It would be nice if there were a political party that, rather than cynically collect talking points and slogans with maximum appeal to particular demographic groups, actually did stuff that was good for people. - my hot take

Also, people thinking you can sell socialism in rural areas are kind of dumb. I live in rural Texas, you basically don't say the world "socialism" out loud because there's a fair chance it'll provoke people. Terms that have "social" or "socialized" in them are pretty taboo. I remember how wary everyone in my area was when the ACA was up for debate, not because of anything in it, but because the term "socialized medicine" came up and was just something everyone choked on. Rural people are trained from birth for this. You'd have to repackage whatever socialist policies you might have and call them anything else and never ever waver from that if you want it to not be immediately rejected by my redneck brethren.

# ? Nov 10, 2016 10:26

NecroMonster: Jan 4, 2009

you'd have to offer something good enough that it defeats the stigma associated

and woe be on you if you fail to deliver

# ? Nov 10, 2016 10:30

Kithkar: Apr 23, 2011; I'm gonna RENOVATE your ass!

Zas posted:

here's something about wisconsin: sanders won the primary ofc but feingold lost his senate race. does that signify?? too drunk and tired to work out the deets

It is literally this thought that is keeping me up tonight.

# ? Nov 10, 2016 10:30

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# ? May 13, 2024 00:53

NecroMonster: Jan 4, 2009

most people don't think that much or know that much about the down ballot, this is especially true during primaries

# ? Nov 10, 2016 10:32

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > SUK ZONE: it's all a pointless exercise and you're just screaming into the void

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