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Flowers For Algeria posted:Or maybe you are absurdly dismissive of what other people consider as offensive, and double down and defend your so-called jokes when your first reaction, when you offend someone, should be "Oh, poo poo, I'm sorry, I apologize". Eh. gently caress em. Not particularly sorry about upsetting someone on somethingawful dot com whose measured response was to tell me to go kill myself. And spend money on it too. Which I guess is good for the forums.
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Nov 10, 2016 12:25
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Nice piece of fish posted:Is that what your brain is telling you or what your gut is telling you? Or maybe that's just your anger talking. It's very hard to do anything but be angry when you're already angry, unfortunately. And it looks to me like a lot of very angry people exist in the US. I wonder what they are all so angry about? I'm not really angry anymore, or rather I am back to my normal background level of anger in re: American politics, but thanks for your concern. My gut isn't telling me much, other than I should go feed it right now, but I'm gonna ignore it right now. I'm not an American, and I'm also a bona-fide socialist in a socialist-light country that has forgotten pretty much everything about socialism. And I agree that economics matter a lot, and that a major concern of progressives should actually be progressive economics. Redistribution, safety nets, unemployment benefits, but also massive government spending and tighter controls on businesses and business practices. That DOES NOT preclude policies focusing on racial justice, be they in parallel to or included in economic policy. And it does not preclude fighting against racism. Working-class whites who voted for Trump, or didn't vote for Clinton, are not bothered by racism, and that is a fact. Many of them are outright racist. It does not mean that some of them, the ones who care least about race, wouldn't vote for a true progressive platform that would include racial justice. Because such a platform would benefit them, and these people are motivated by selfishness (and I'm saying this in the least judgemental way possible. There is sense in caring about only yourself and your immediate family, especially if you're living through hard times. But that does make you selfish, which is an antisocial behavior).
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Nov 10, 2016 12:34
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sumie posted:My take as an outsider. Some Trump supporters have legitimate claims about political class that has been ignoring them, though I would not paint everyone with the same brush. Some people supported Trump because he signified change away from the usual politics that hadn't worked for them. Some of them saw him as a way to restore conservativism in the government. A lot of his supporters who are baby boomers have seen the world change in ways that have irritated them, they've seen equal marriage, abortion rights, affirmative action, and like regular conservatives opted in to support Trump as he's claimed he'll fight against these. Some of them found his rhetoric fresh and refreshing as he's abandoned the dog whistles that are norm in the republican party. Some of course have economic grievances about loss of manufacturing jobs. Some people probably saw Hillary as crooked after 30 years of republican assault and conspiracy theories and opted for Trump instead. Some are straight up KKK members, white rights supporters, men's rights dudes and gamergate folk who see Trump as some kind of stalwart against the invasion of what they see as feminist and progressive domination in politics. And quite many probably voted him without really even paying attention at all to consequences of him nominating a conservative judge and other ways he might undo years of progressive accomplishments. Yet, all of these people no matter what their main reason for voting Trump were more than happy to ignore the obvious racism surrounding him and his campaign. You are absolutely right, and the heterogeneousness of Trump's camp should give Democrats hope, instead of them rallying to write everybody in it off while desperately clinging to some notion of a moral victory.
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Nov 10, 2016 12:37
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Not a Step posted:Eh. gently caress em. Not particularly sorry about upsetting someone on somethingawful dot com whose measured response was to tell me to go kill myself. And spend money on it too. Which I guess is good for the forums. If "gently caress em" and "not particularly sorry" is your response to people you gratuitously offend, you're probably not very nice.
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Nov 10, 2016 12:37
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Flowers For Algeria posted:I'm not really angry anymore, or rather I am back to my normal background level of anger in re: American politics, but thanks for your concern. My gut isn't telling me much, other than I should go feed it right now, but I'm gonna ignore it right now. The fact, on which all socialism is fundamentally founded, is that for the proletariat, economic questions will trump all other issues 100% time, to the full extent, be it racism or anything else. This is the main strength of socialism, and also the major weakness of neoliberal moderates who have replaced the old school. Now, that axiom is not ABSOUTEY ALWAYS true, but it needs to be remembered as a rule of thumb if there is to be any hope.
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Nov 10, 2016 12:41
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Flowers For Algeria posted:If "gently caress em" and "not particularly sorry" is your response to people you gratuitously offend, you're probably not very nice. This poster is a racist piece of poo poo and needs to kill their entire family and themselves to save people of color.
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Nov 10, 2016 12:42
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Flowers For Algeria posted:I'm not really angry anymore, or rather I am back to my normal background level of anger in re: American politics, but thanks for your concern. My gut isn't telling me much, other than I should go feed it right now, but I'm gonna ignore it right now. loving lol. These people are often concerned about their entire towns fading into the dust, or their entire state slowly dying. I hope sneering elitists like you arent the future of the democratic party or the dems are fuuuuucked. E: Like, more hosed than losing all three branches of government and most states, allowing Republicans to enact more voter suppression laws making it harder and harder to win without being able to reach out to white voters without being an rear end in a top hat. So, uh, not really sure how much more hosed you could get really. Hmm. ONLY THE ISSUES I CARE ABOUT ARE WORTH PURSUING, EVERYTHING ELSE IS SELFISH Hey how did Trump win? Nix Panicus fucked around with this message at 12:50 on Nov 10, 2016 |
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Nov 10, 2016 12:47
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Those people are also motivated by selfishness, and that's good, because it means they are open to the socialist project - which is increasing welfare through cooperative action. What the American left needs to do is break the myth of an independent fortune seeker striking it out in the world. Its'a selfish project, because at some level of philosophical inquiry selfishness and altruism meet and become one.
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Nov 10, 2016 12:49
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steinrokkan posted:The fact, on which all socialism is fundamentally founded, is that for the proletariat, economic questions will trump all other issues 100% time, to the full extent, be it racism or anything else. This is the main strength of socialism, and also the major weakness of neoliberal moderates who have replaced the old school. Now, that axiom is not ABSOUTEY ALWAYS true, but it needs to be remembered as a rule of thumb if there is to be any hope. Social justice and class justice follow the same logic, which is the logic of resistance to oppression. Modern socialism takes different kinds of oppression into account. Not a Step posted:This poster is a racist piece of poo poo and needs to kill their entire family and themselves to save people of color. Note my use of the word "gratuitously".
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Nov 10, 2016 12:50
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Social justice and class justice follow the same logic, which is the logic of resistance to oppression. Modern socialism takes different kinds of oppression into account. Modern socialism needs to take a lot of hints from old socialism. Namely that post-material concerns won't become widely popular in a population that has regressed back to trying to take control of basic poo poo. You can integrate social justice concerns into an economic platform without compromising its appeal. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 12:56 on Nov 10, 2016 |
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Nov 10, 2016 12:50
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https://mobile.twitter.com/ShaunKing Read Shaun King's timeline for a list of awful things happening to people
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Nov 10, 2016 12:52
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If the economy tanks we could try the old FDR style work projects as a platform. That might help people get cooperative action, but I really doubt it. Then again, I guess I can't really say what the electorate finds palatable after this election, can I?
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Nov 10, 2016 12:53
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Despite not being a Trump supporter, I'm really enjoying watching liberals squirm about how A. All Trump voters are racist. B. Trump is anti democratic, so let's be really anti democratic and pretend he wasn't just elected. C. Blaming everyone but themselves for these disastrous results.
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Nov 10, 2016 12:54
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Meanwhile, I am literally quivering in anger. I don't know if this has been posted yet, but: https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...62d1_story.html quote:That dream started to unravel about 8:30 p.m. Tuesday, when roughly half the states had voted and results showed a Trump lead that Clinton’s confident, data-driven campaign had not foreseen. We didn't have a candidate, we had a goddamn bot that wasn't configured correctly. These idiots gambled away all our futures and have murdered some of my friends thanks to a computer program. I cannot put my anger into words and I suspect I'm going to have difficulty sleeping now.
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Nov 10, 2016 12:53
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Not a Step posted:loving lol. These people are often concerned about their entire towns fading into the dust, or their entire state slowly dying. I hope sneering elitists like you arent the future of the democratic party or the dems are fuuuuucked. Reading comprehension seems to be quite hard for you. steinrokkan posted:Modern socialism needs to take a lot of hints from old socialism. Namely that post-material concerns won't become widely popular in a population that has regressed back to trying to take control of basic poo poo. It really does. It doesn't need to abandon any of its worthwhile objectives, though. The elimination of racial injustices is one such worthwhile objectives. Wouldn't you agree? EDIT: I wouldn't call racism a post-material concern, though? It is very very material. Flowers For Algeria fucked around with this message at 12:56 on Nov 10, 2016 |
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Nov 10, 2016 12:54
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Blowdryer posted:https://mobile.twitter.com/ShaunKing I too like unverified accounts of things.
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Nov 10, 2016 12:55
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Social justice and class justice follow the same logic, which is the logic of resistance to oppression. Modern socialism takes different kinds of oppression into account. Note my use of the words 'gently caress em'. Also lol that you edited out 'Don't liberalsplain at me'. Sneering elitists are always the same. And then you wonder why no one wants to join your selfish crusades for the things you care about.
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Nov 10, 2016 12:55
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Not a Step posted:Note my use of the words 'gently caress em'. I don't wonder why you won't join my crusade for economic, social and racial justice. I also edited my post because I realized that it was a joke that could be taken as an assholeish thing to say to steinrokkan, who does not actually sound like a liberal.
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Nov 10, 2016 12:58
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If the people bickering in this thread are what I can expect from our glorious socialist future we may as well go back to mercantilism.
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Nov 10, 2016 13:00
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Flowers For Algeria posted:It really does. It's a post material concern for the people who don't believe it concerns them. Otherwise, yes, those objectives are not in any sort of competition, but Democrats hosed up in selling their supposed goals in to each particular demographic in terms that pertain to them. That's all this has been about. Instead of trying to explain to a trailer park white trash from some tumbleweed town why he should care for inner city problems that he doesn't give a poo poo about, tell him how you are going to get his family into new jobs and get them a decent place to live. I think the overall goal should be to get all people to such a level of basic satisfaction with their lives that they can unite in support for even more progressive policies across current antagonistic cleavages without feeling like they endanger their basic livelihoods by doing so. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 13:03 on Nov 10, 2016 |
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Nov 10, 2016 12:59
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Because such a platform would benefit them, and these people are motivated by selfishness this is probably bullshit
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Nov 10, 2016 13:01
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SpaceDrake posted:Meanwhile, I am literally quivering in anger. I don't know if this has been posted yet, but: Everything that Hillary touches turns to poo poo thanks to her hubris. Colin Powell knew. At least she's forever destroyed now. Too bad we didn't run Bernie instead. TNC probably has some regrets. Non Serviam posted:Despite not being a Trump supporter, I'm really enjoying watching liberals squirm about how Forever this. Its everyone's fault but Hillary's (and the idiots who nominated her)
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Nov 10, 2016 13:02
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skooma512 posted:Stuff like that ultimately drives people towards guys like Trump. You can't just namecall and bully people all the time and expect them to suddenly want to take your side on anything. Does this sentiment apply to every other candidate in either primary as well? If so, carry on.
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Nov 10, 2016 13:04
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sumie posted:If the people bickering in this thread are what I can expect from our glorious socialist future we may as well go back to mercantilism. You can also expect Not A Step to end up in a gulag. No bickering. It would have been enough to convince a couple percent more people.
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Nov 10, 2016 13:04
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Flowers For Algeria posted:I'm not really angry anymore, or rather I am back to my normal background level of anger in re: American politics, but thanks for your concern. My gut isn't telling me much, other than I should go feed it right now, but I'm gonna ignore it right now. Alright, cool. I think we probably agree on a lot. I won't pretend to know the extent of the racism problem in the US. I am ignorant on that topic. The bolded part? You are absolutely correct about that, and if Trump voters can be categorized I think that there are two broad categories to shoehorn them into: Racists, and Indifferents. I also think both these groups actually can be reached with an economic message, because in 2016 I choose to believe that people who are hurting economically won't vote against their own (clearly defined and messaged) best interest just to spite minorities. At least not enough of them to change the result of an election. I absolutely agree that a lot of Trump voters were centrally motivated by selfisness. I think you are on the money on that one. It's probably more a question of exactly how one focuses on policies of racial justice, which obviously any progressive platform should include. I think it's a mistake to decry anyone opposing a political platform with racial justice included as a racist or racist lite, because that has a very polarizing effect that will ensure that the rest of that platform will be ignored out of spite and anger. I'm not going to pretend that I have the answer for the american left. Hell, I don't have the answer for my own country which badly needs to swing left again as soon as. But I do think that the economy was a big big deal in this election, big enough to sway Indifferents into ignoring the implicit racism of voting for Donald Trump (and I do feel that makes them unconscionable rather than actual racists) in favour of their own needs. Populism 101. I think we'll be able to draw a lot more conclusions from this whole mess when it's been analyzed to death, and I'd like to hear that analysis from the people who weren't incredibly wrong this election (aka the DNC).
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Nov 10, 2016 13:05
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Yes, Hillary was unelectable and we were all idiots for ever believing otherwise! Please pay no attention to the simple fact that more people voted for her, and for Democrats as a whole down-ticket! 
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Nov 10, 2016 13:15
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SpaceDrake posted:Meanwhile, I am literally quivering in anger. I don't know if this has been posted yet, but: Ahahaha holy gently caress this is like the most Democrat thing that could happen I hate this party so loving much the Clinton campaign was literally run by robot programmed to misunderstand middle America. It's funny, but will it get them off of their tractors. Hahaha a bunch of my friends are probably going to be dead in four years.
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Nov 10, 2016 13:16
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Trade Chat Troll posted:Yes, Hillary was unelectable and we were all idiots for ever believing otherwise! Please pay no attention to the simple fact that more people voted for her, and for Democrats as a whole down-ticket! Hillary ran up the absolutely meaningless popular vote in blue strongholds and dropped the ball in the battleground states that mattered. Winning the popular vote isnt worth anything at all. And the downticket... you are aware Republicans hold the House and Senate, right? Hillary didn't do poo poo for the downticket. She was a massive failure.
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Nov 10, 2016 13:18
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The worst thing about those wet noodle democrats is that they view everything going on right now as a little league outing where everyone is a winner instead of the serious threat to human life it is.
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Nov 10, 2016 13:19
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Mixodorian posted:https://twitter.com/kmscodi/status/796554667748716545 Did I read you right? The white guy is a racist?
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Nov 10, 2016 13:24
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Bushiz posted:the Clinton campaign was literally run by robot programmed to misunderstand middle America. Pretty good summary actually.
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Nov 10, 2016 13:26
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Killer-of-Lawyers posted:If the economy tanks we could try the old FDR style work projects as a platform. That might help people get cooperative action, but I really doubt it. Then again, I guess I can't really say what the electorate finds palatable after this election, can I? Well considering that rather then make that the center point of campaigns, dems would appear with kay Perry and Lady Gaga. I think this is a marketing problem.
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Nov 10, 2016 13:36
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Nocturtle posted:Pretty good summary actually. Seriously people have been saying for years you just can't assume "the economy is great! Look at the stock market!" while people in middle America are working lovely uber jobs (until they are fired without cause) to make ends meet while college educated twenty year olds everywhere can't find jobs in their fields and are basically indentured servants because they can't pay back their absurd loans. The answer was always that the democratic strongholds would never go red even when Wisconsin has elected Scott Walker three times or that "who cares what leftists and young people believe they can't be counted on to vote so gently caress them." There's massive disenfranchisement of the working class in this country that neither party is dealing with but Trump at least had a dumbass catchphrase and a bunch of lies that resonated with some of them. They didn't all go to Trump (Hillary's campaign at least got that right) but they didn't vote for her and stayed home. Things sucking are the faults of republicans pretty much making GBS threads on everything but the DNC have had no real answers to that. This isn't just Clinton's fault; the entire Democratic party has been doing terrible since 2000 and it's just that Obama made them think that he was the new normal and they could ride his charismatic coat tails forever while putting up ex-Republicans against Rick Snyder and other boneheaded moves.
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Nov 10, 2016 13:38
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Crowsbeak posted:Well considering that rather then make that the center point of campaigns, dems would appear with kay Perry and Lady Gaga. I think this is a marketing problem. Sheng-ji Yang posted:how to win rural and working class whites: Radish posted:Things sucking are the faults of republicans pretty much making GBS threads on everything but the DNC have had no real answers to that. This isn't just Clinton's fault; the entire Democratic party has been doing terrible since 2000 and it's just that Obama made them think that he was the new normal and they could ride his charismatic coat tails forever while putting up ex-Republicans against Rick Snyder and other boneheaded moves. The National DNC abandoned Wisconsin unions during their recall battle with Scott Walker while the national RNC pumped millions into his campaign. The Democrats at the national level threw unions under the bus and let them rot, and everyone in the Rust Belt took notice. The Democrats absolutely earned the Rust Belt defection for being spineless shits. Nix Panicus fucked around with this message at 13:47 on Nov 10, 2016 |
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Nov 10, 2016 13:44
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Non Serviam posted:Despite not being a Trump supporter, I'm really enjoying watching liberals squirm about how If you vote for a racist enabler you are a racist enabler. Republicans in general tend to be not very democratic, they do their best to pass all sorts of laws to prevent people from voting and otherwise stomp on civil rights. The last one I kind of agree with. There is in my mind only one group of people to blame for Trump as president and that is every single person who voted for him. The left taking a look at itself and going, "Hey, maybe Hillary was a bad idea." is a good thing over all. Stupid conspiracy nonsense aside, Hillary stood for a lot of stupid bullshit and bad policy over the years and absolutely refused to take hard stances on political issues affecting people during her campaign. Instead she relied solely on the notion that Trump was an insane racist pile of trash, she relied on an almost entirely negative campaign. Even if all the negative poo poo about Trump is or turns out to be true I think a big lesson here is to generate excitement and rally support a candidate has to run a positive campaign, even if at the same time they're attacking their opponent on the things that matter.
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Nov 10, 2016 13:48
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SpaceDrake posted:We didn't have a candidate, we had a goddamn bot that wasn't configured correctly. These idiots gambled away all our futures and have murdered some of my friends thanks to a computer program. Using computers to gauge where to spend effort isn't a bad idea and is something politicians have been using since computers became a thing. The trouble is there's a truism in computing, 'Garbage In, Garbage Out' - the program can be as clever as you like but if you don't feed it reality its output won't reflect reality either. The Clinton campaign was getting the same flawed raw info that the pollsters did because a whole ton of people were willing to vote Trump but not willing to tell anyone they were going to do so. 
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Nov 10, 2016 13:50
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Let's go one step further - if you put forward a candidate so inept she makes a racist enabler look good in comparison, and causes people to vote for racist enabling, you are also a racist enabler.
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Nov 10, 2016 13:52
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Largely abandoning union interests to side with banks and finance was a huge loving mistake that we are paying for now (and have been for years although not in such an in your face example).
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Nov 10, 2016 13:56
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All those hillbot jokes were justified 250%  To those complaining that it was the media who failed hillbot in pushing her super progressive agenda (after it was cynically stolen from Bernie's corpse), there isn't the Chinese wall between the media and the Hillary campaign that you think there is.
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Nov 10, 2016 13:56
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steinrokkan posted:Let's go one step further - if you put forward a candidate so inept she makes a racist enabler look good in comparison, and causes people to vote for racist enabling, you are also a racist enabler. While Hillary and her campaign are clearly at fault and inept to an extent, let's not forget how effective exactly the republican propaganda campaign was against her that had for last two decades surrounded her with manufactured outrage, controversy and conspiracy theories.
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Nov 10, 2016 13:56
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