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Captain_Person posted:It's this, basically. Reading phrases like "Garden of Forty Felicitous Fragrances" and "Terrace of Sixty Serenities" got me partially concerned, because I cannot tell if Hughart did the research, or if they were included because they sound "right". I'm not familiar at all with that cultural style, so I'm unable to tell myself. I should probably have made this clearer in my original post - that'll teach me to quickly phone post while at work. Even if it isn't historically accurate (i have no idea if it is), Chinese fiction has similarly flowery names.A lot of what people might decry as 'orientalism' are relatively common tropes in chinese fantasy movies and novels, and it influences stuff written here. People sometimes get huffy about ancient chinese mystical secrets and magical kung fu, but China loves that stuff even more than we do. It's just a matter of treating it with a minimum of respect and not overly resorting to stereotypes when it comes to the characters themselves.
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Nov 10, 2016 08:01
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It's a tale of an ancient China that never was, best treat it that way and just enjoy the ride. The overly flowery names definitely still exist today - for a rather bleak example, see Tiananmen Square, "Square of Heavenly Peace". The rest is Hughart's love for alliteration and puns. There's definitely stereotyping done in there but I think it fits the farcical nature of the narrative.
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Nov 10, 2016 11:05
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I'm pretty psyched to see Arrival in a few days, I've heard good things.
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Nov 10, 2016 13:17
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Its kind of bonkers how much NK Jemisin writes. Her first published novel was in 2010 and since then she's put out 7 more books.
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Nov 10, 2016 13:50
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Gollancz have announced a new David Gemmell novel. Don't get too excited, though, it's a crime novel rather than fantasy. I mention it here only because someone else may hear about it and get curious. If you're still interested, it's out next May ahead of a reprint of his other crime novel in September.
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Nov 10, 2016 13:57
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Wolpertinger posted:Even if it isn't historically accurate (i have no idea if it is), Chinese fiction has similarly flowery names.A lot of what people might decry as 'orientalism' are relatively common tropes in chinese fantasy movies and novels, and it influences stuff written here. People sometimes get huffy about ancient chinese mystical secrets and magical kung fu, but China loves that stuff even more than we do. It's just a matter of treating it with a minimum of respect and not overly resorting to stereotypes when it comes to the characters themselves. I moved to China when I was 9 and menu items in nice restaurants have names like that. Makes it really loving hard to know what you're ordering. It definitely seems unfair to leverage the accusation of racism due to your own cultural ignorance. Seems like the correct response is to do some cursory research first, which then has the awesome secondary effect of broadening your own horizons thanks to a story.
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Nov 10, 2016 14:37
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If you want to get upset about (probably unintentional but still harmful) racism in SF/F just look at how it seems like JK Rowling just googled "native american mythological creatures" and picked the top four results for the houses in the school started by a white immigrant
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Nov 10, 2016 14:44
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Internet Wizard posted:If you want to get upset about (probably unintentional but still harmful) racism in SF/F just look at how it seems like JK Rowling just googled "native american mythological creatures" and picked the top four results for the houses in the school started by a white immigrant A hufflepuff is an actual thing?
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Nov 10, 2016 15:23
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Drifter posted:A hufflepuff is an actual thing? You don't remember the most famous one, Horton?
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Nov 10, 2016 15:25
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Do you like books? Do you like free books? Do you like books as a Christmas present? Do you like spreading joy and cheer amongst humankind, or at least goonkind, at Christmas? If the answer to these questions is yes, hop over to the Secret Santa thread and sign up!bonds0097 posted:I moved to China when I was 9 and menu items in nice restaurants have names like that. Makes it really loving hard to know what you're ordering. Worrying that something's racist because of the author's ethnicity isn't so smart. On the other hand, Orientalism is real, it's one of the roots of modern fantasy, and the most prominent other writer in this vein is probably Ernest Bramah and I doubt he'd hold up to modern critical scrutiny. On the third hand, you can do a lot of research (as Hughart, I'm pretty sure, did; I read an article once in which he replied to attacks from academics) and still be racist. Captain_Person, try reading it with a sharper eye for what might be racism, which should help you ask more precise questions.
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Nov 10, 2016 15:52
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I think if the firmest thing you can come up with is a vague sense of unease at the author's ethnicity, it's probably not racist. You might be though. 
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Nov 10, 2016 16:01
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tooterfish posted:I think if the firmest thing you can come up with is a vague sense of unease at the author's ethnicity, it's probably not racist.
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Nov 10, 2016 17:47
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Statistically speaking? Hahaha. Oh god. The part of my brain that detects irony just shot out of my ear and splattered against the wall.
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Nov 10, 2016 18:05
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i just want to confirm that we just had a wild sighting of 'if you think something is racist, maybe you, indeed, are the racist'. thought to be on the decline in recent years, it's encouraging to see that the forum environment has allowed such a post to return to its natural habitat I honestly never got the hype over Bridge of Birds. Leaving aside questions of orientalism I thought it was a bog-standard adventure novel with Chinese Mythology, The Two Week Primer shellacked on top.
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Nov 10, 2016 18:38
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Oh shut up, I was clearly joking. If you don't think it's even a little bit funny that that's the exact same justification some alt-right fuckwit would use to justify crossing the road to avoid a black person, I don't know what to say. Oh wait, yes I do. gently caress off.
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Nov 10, 2016 18:47
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muscles like this! posted:Its kind of bonkers how much NK Jemisin writes. Her first published novel was in 2010 and since then she's put out 7 more books. She only went full time a few months ago, too. I mean the people who take forever to write are probably a minority because most writers can't afford to pull a gurm but she's still ludicrously fast.
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Nov 10, 2016 19:27
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I think Craig Schaefer still wins for fastest word processor in the west, though.
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Nov 10, 2016 19:31
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Rough Lobster posted:I'm pretty psyched to see Arrival in a few days, I've heard good things. Just saw it. Loved it.
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Nov 10, 2016 21:51
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Junkenstein posted:Just saw it. Loved it. I'm seeing it in a few hours...been waiting months for it 
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Nov 10, 2016 21:53
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Junkenstein posted:Just saw it. Loved it. How close to the short story is it? Spoiler'd for others please, and maybe if there's a HUGE TWIST not in the short story don't reveal the twist itself? 
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Nov 10, 2016 22:28
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Fantastic film. Cried like the baby I clearly am. Very close in tone and content to the story.
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Nov 11, 2016 01:01
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Nevvy Z posted:How close to the short story is it? Spoiler'd for others please, and maybe if there's a HUGE TWIST not in the short story don't reveal the twist itself? The movie is very good, and it's quite close to the short story. I liked the short story better though. Spoilers if you haven't read the book: The plot stuff that they added in to make it a movie was fairly well done and wasn't just thrown in there to inflate it out to a full movie. It also wasn't just thrown in there to make it more "Hollywood" or whatever. The visual representation for the Heptapod writing was--I guess--the best you could do...but I feel they didn't show the process of it being written out like they probably should have. Instead of seeing the "ideograph" being written out from both sides or whatever, it just kind of exploded/inked out onto the screen so fast they it didn't seem like it was being written so much as just poofing into existence. They had to do some heavy work explaining stuff through dialogue and one very clumsy exposition dump to make up for the fact that the visual representation was lacking. The exposition dump was pretty long and in the middle of the movie or so: it was literally a voice-over exposition dump doubling as a bit of a time jump, and it was the weakest part of the entire movie to me. There were some changes to the story of her daughter's life that may seem suspect, but I agreed with them for the purposes of the film. I'll specifically talk about why in the below spoiler. Spoilers that spoil everything: The extra plot thing with the countries needing to cooperate was pretty well done to me. They specifically showed how learning Heptapod writing would make humans cooperate better in the coming millenia, and they really sold that it's a "gift." It was super clear that as soon as it "clicked" for Banks, the Heptapods had done what they came to achieve, and that's why they left. Instead of Hannah dying in an accident, she gets a rare and untreatable/unpreventable illness. While this does kind of gut the story of the freewill issue, I see it more as pulling the focus away from that question. Since Hannah is destined to get this illness and die, Banks has no option to do a single thing to stop it from happening short of not having the kid at all. There is no question like you have in the short story "Why not just stop Hannah from going on the trip where she dies?" Clearly Ted Chiang wanted you to think about that, but the film had to work a lot harder to get you to understand the connection between Heptapod writing and perception of time, and throwing that free will issue in would have overburdened the film. I think having the reason Ian leaves her being that she told him is actually an elegant way to keep some form of the free will question in the narrative. She eventually tells him, and he is angry with her (it's not totally shown but you can infer) that she chose to have a child that she knew was going to die. He probably was extra angry that she chose to make the decision for both of them when she knew he'd have made the opposite choice. You could view this change as kind of "lazy" or "tidy," since they really strained to make clear that the illness was simply unavoidable. They really didn't want you wasting your time thinking about "what if you learn Heptapod and see your husband will die in a car crash, wouldn't you just stop him?" angel opportunity fucked around with this message at 04:06 on Nov 11, 2016 |
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Nov 11, 2016 04:04
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Xotl posted:Talking about a subject = racism?
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Nov 11, 2016 04:18
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angel opportunity posted:The movie is very good, and it's quite close to the short story. I liked the short story better though. This part is actually really neat and explains (story spoiler) the aliens leaving in a better way. In the short story I kind of got the vibe that they were just doing what they do because they are destined to and that's that, which I didn't like a much.
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Nov 11, 2016 05:00
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Captain_Person posted:It's this, basically. Reading phrases like "Garden of Forty Felicitous Fragrances" and "Terrace of Sixty Serenities" got me partially concerned, because I cannot tell if Hughart did the research, or if they were included because they sound "right". I'm not familiar at all with that cultural style, so I'm unable to tell myself. I should probably have made this clearer in my original post - that'll teach me to quickly phone post while at work. It's actually a pastiche of how some ancient Chinese literature was written. I'm phone posting so I won't try to put out any concrete examples. Romance of the Three Kingdoms has got a lot of that stuff. I dunno, I felt he was respectful.
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Nov 11, 2016 09:12
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coyo7e posted:Orientalism and other forms of cultural appropriation are pretty much exactly what you get when you have "unintentional racism," as he posted, though. On that note, RIP Ian Mcdonalds writing career.
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Nov 11, 2016 09:18
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Speaking of McDonald, should actually get around to reading a few of his newer novels that have ended up on my shelf, first few chapters read over the past few years. Hearts, Hands and Voices from 90s pretty much remains one of my favourites.
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Nov 11, 2016 12:23
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muscles like this! posted:Its kind of bonkers how much NK Jemisin writes. Her first published novel was in 2010 and since then she's put out 7 more books. Even better, she had a 9 to 5 job as a psychologist until this year.
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Nov 11, 2016 15:41
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I'm really depressed about the election, and I need to read some escapist fiction to take my mind off it for a little while. I currently own the following unread Sci-Fi books: The Reality Dysfunction Diamond Age Altered Carbon Quantum Thief which would be the best pick if I want something that is quick and hard to put down, so that I can get engrossed in it over the weekend and lose track of time?
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Nov 11, 2016 21:02
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You'll know real quick if TQT is right for you. It goes deep fast
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Nov 11, 2016 21:04
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Diamond Age is quick and has a great first 2/3 of a novel and then goes off the rails. Still, it's quick and pretty engrossing. Altered Carbon I found to be a pretty compelling read, and the series is good (though each is somewhat different than the prior) so you've got more to go into if you need a longer escape.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:11
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The Reality Dysfunction is horrible, so I wouldn't read that one
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Nov 11, 2016 21:22
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blue squares posted:I'm really depressed about the election, and I need to read some escapist fiction to take my mind off it for a little while. I currently own the following unread Sci-Fi books: Altered Carbon is pretty great. Very actiony, too. Quantum Thief is also pretty great. Do Diamond Age some other time. TRD 
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Nov 11, 2016 22:13
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I loved Diamond Age, but it reminds me how much I prefer early Stephenson to his modern stuff. But then again, all of his "modern stuff" I've read is basically just what I've seen of Seveneves so far. It seems suuuuuuuuuper focused on "hey look at all this research that I get to tell you about" and hasn't presented me with maybe more than one interesting character so far. It feels like a totally different author than Diamond Age and Snowcrash. I remember reading Snowcrash the first time and being totally blown away by how innovative and weird everything was and I loved it. Seveneves feels like at some point along the way, he traded genuinely interesting, if way out of left-field, ideas for the sake of scientific rigor and accuracy. I get that's what a lot of people look for in sci-fi these days but I'd take a gloriously inaccurate book with really compelling ideas over one that's technically robust anyday. Also Hiro Protagonist. C'mon.
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Nov 11, 2016 22:56
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Nevvy Z posted:You'll know real quick if TQT is right for you. It goes deep fast It's a great escapist novel too. Very engrossing.
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Nov 11, 2016 23:04
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Is there a living CJ Cherryh thread? I don't think so, so I'll post here, and I need to go  somewhere.I've been reading her entire Foreigner series lately and while in a lot of ways the best part of the series is in the first six books - the rest are good but not as brilliant - in recent books the quality has shot back up and I am absolutely gobsmacked at how good it is - and at some of the revelations. I just hit page 316 in Tracker, if that means anything to anyone. (Has anyone here read it?) She finally answered a question that I've been wondering about since the beginning of the series, that neatly explains several mysteries and opens up several more, and I am drat impressed at the sheer amount of planning that must have gone into this series. Fifteen plus books and she had it all figured back in the 90s, and we're finally reaching some revelations and I have no idea how long she'll be writing this, except that it is, in my opinion, the finest long-running sci-fi series out there. (Hi, I'm one of the three people on the forums who just can't get into Iain M Banks despite trying multiple books. Perhaps this casts my opinions in a darker light, but whatever.) Anyways, to add some substance: the Foreigner series is Cherryh sitting down and working out the intricate workings of at least three separate cultures, how they interact and live and deal with opposing viewpoints, and spins it out in a years-long story of technological advance, first contact, and diplomacy. There are multiple instances of Cherryh digging into the linguistics of alien languages, psychologies, and more. Now, the biggest hang-up to the series is the main character: all of it is through Bren's viewpoint (until later books) and if you hate him, stop early on. As much as it's a story of different cultures, it's also the story of a remarkable man and his rise through the ranks as he gains understanding and experience at being a diplomat and translator. In essence the books are about him struggling with more and more complex problems - and while there are villains, they're usually faceless forces, usually political. One more note: after book six, the series pulls a 40k in Gehenna (another one of Cherryh's novels) where it goes from sci-fi to fantasy in setting - as in, not that she brings magic or wizards in, but that the action is planetary-focused and low-tech. They ride around in trains and on alien camels, dealing with atevi lords and ladies in a variety of crucial political problems - and that takes a whole lot of books before they return to space. It's good, but it feels like her fantasy instead of her sci-fi, and that might be off-putting. To sum up: this series is the culmination of Cherryh's long career, mixing genres and politics and a long-suffering male protagonist who goes through a lot of pain to understand anything, and it's filled with details for everything and it feels like a real place I could visit. Please, please check it out if you haven't. And skip the first two short stories the editor insisted she put in the front of Foreigner. The book opens best with the intended opening: on the balcony, with an assassin fleeing from the premises. StrixNebulosa fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Nov 12, 2016 |
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Nov 12, 2016 01:53
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Thanks for the responses. I'll start with Quantum Thief and switch to Altered Carbon if I'm not digging it.
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Nov 12, 2016 03:06
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coffeetable posted:Even better, she had a 9 to 5 job as a psychologist until this year. 2: Psychology is way more than a 9 to 5 job if you're doing anything about intern-level poo poo, and psychologists are second to none when it comes to prolific writers.. A friend of mine got an annual joke award at the psych research center we worked at, because he was a PI who managed to make a journal article's title 54 words long - which was a new record for the institution. Also, there's the whole bit about bouncing around the world constantly, going to conferences and speaking engagements and poo poo.
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Nov 12, 2016 04:20
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StrixNebulosa posted:Is there a living CJ Cherryh thread? I don't think so, so I'll post here, and I need to go We have a CJC thread, but it's not very active and I'm very in favour of anything that makes more people aware of how awesome she is. quote:I've been reading her entire Foreigner series lately and while in a lot of ways the best part of the series is in the first six books - the rest are good but not as brilliant - in recent books the quality has shot back up and I am absolutely gobsmacked at how good it is - and at some of the revelations. I backburnered it after book 6 in favour of going back and cleaning up corners of her bibliography that I'd missed, like The Paladin and Wave Without a Shore, but lately I've been thinking I should return to it. The main thing stopping me is that I want it to be finished, dammit. Brust and Cherryh both having long-running unfinished series is torture. (I also want her to take a break from it and write a proper sequel to Cyteen.)
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Nov 12, 2016 04:21
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ToxicFrog posted:We have a CJC thread, but it's not very active and I'm very in favour of anything that makes more people aware of how awesome she is. It's so inactive it fell into archives.  As for Cyteen - okay, realtalk, I don't even know what she could do for a proper sequel to Cyteen. The mystery doesn't need solving, and anything involving the azi / society shaping is so far down the road we might as well ask Cherryh for a history book detailing what happens in the AU 'verse. I mean, I'd kill for an equally long-equally good sequel that covers something fascinating and cool, but at the same time my heart yearns for more in the Chanur 'verse, so... As long as Cherryh keeps writing I'll be happy, and I know I'm lucky that I don't mind reading her super-long unfinished series. The first six books make for a near perfect sequence with a good stopping point that feels finished and complete, but man, the rest of it does keep going. (I know, I know, I need to get off my duff and read Regenesis. But before that I'd want to reread Cyteen, and before that I need to continue my reread of Fortress in the Eye of Time and then read its sequels.)
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Nov 12, 2016 04:41
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