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Is it time for a poll about how many and which Democratic senators defect to the Republican party on the first day of the new session?
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Nov 10, 2016 15:41
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| # ? May 10, 2024 03:48 |
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I feel like people like me who have made the point (in this thread or the other closed autopsy thread) that identity politics and virtue signalling made more of an impact than others would like to admit are being misrepresented Like, I don't think that Hillary lost because people got really mad about tumblrs, or Reddit, or whatever What seems to have happened is that a number of vocal fringe groups were perceived, fairly or not, to be associated with The Left, and those vocal fringe groups are openly hostile and antagonistic toward white men, who (it turns out) have more votes than POC and other minority groups Freddie DeBoer's remark regarding politics that I personally agree with most - you have to loving appeal to the people who will help you win the goddamn election, even if you don't think it's right or fair that they should have to be appealed to Again it's less about tumblrs and internet echo chambers and more about doing nothing to court the largest group of voters in the United States who felt, whether you think it is fair or not, excluded from your party's platform and message There are certainly some people who voted for Trump because they viewed Clinton as a bigger criminal, or they wanted to see change in the White House, or because <reason>, but I think it's loving stupid to think that messaging had nothing to do with it; in 2016 it was absolutely the cool thing to do to poo poo on white guys as being man-children or cry babies or whatever for any number of reasons, and those people making GBS threads on white dudes are popularly thought of as being voices of and from "the Left," and as a result what we got was not really a vote for change (since Republicans retained Congress) or a vote for Donald J. Trump (Craig Gilbert from the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel tweeted that Trump was viewed unfavorably by 63% of the voters in a state he wound up loving winning) It was a big dumb scorched earth response And it will happen again in 2020 if the Dems pursue the same strategies
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Nov 10, 2016 15:45
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Adventure Pigeon posted:So here's a question, how do we shift the academic left to where it needs to be? Because right now the focus is on race and gender and how everyone that disagrees is a racist sexist that won't acknowledge their privilege, and that's where the next batch of fresh faced young campaign staffers, thinkpiece writers, and everything else is coming from. They're going to make it very hard for Democrats to shift back to being the party of the poor, because that's not even on their radar. Hell, I imagine to them the Trump victory just validates everything they've been told about rural voters. We're going to have to start being a little nicer to people we disagree with and assholes to people we may agree with but are making the party significantly less inclusive. These people deserve a significant portion of the blame for what happened and they really need to hear it if it's going to sink in.
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Nov 10, 2016 15:49
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guts and bolts posted:I feel like people like me who have made the point (in this thread or the other closed autopsy thread) that identity politics and virtue signalling made more of an impact than others would like to admit are being misrepresented white genocide now 2020
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Nov 10, 2016 15:48
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Honestly I think people are overplaying the "Academic Left jargon poisoned us against working class voters" a bit. Sure a lot of people roll their eyes or don't like Lena Dunham but at the end of the day: a) We ran a deeply unpopular candidate. b) The campaign assumed MI, PA, and WI were automatic locks and either did nothing to turn out those votes or bungled it bigly, narrowly losing to an equally unpopular candidate. This is primarily a story about political malpractice. No one gives a poo poo if one small section of your supporters are tweeting at each other about intersectionality as long as you're also persuading them to join your side.
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Nov 10, 2016 15:50
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Sun Wu Kampf posted:Not even millenials like Lena Dunham. Every single TV show she ever showed up on cratered horribly in the ratings for whatever episode no matter how much clothing she removed. I'd bet there's about 100% crossover between people under 35 who like Lena Dunham and people under 35 who were big Hillary supporters. So from their bubble it seemed like everyone loves her. So why wouldn't you push somebody who everybody loves?
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Nov 10, 2016 15:51
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mrmcd posted:Honestly I think people are overplaying the "Academic Left jargon poisoned us against working class voters" a bit. Sure a lot of people roll their eyes or don't like Lena Dunham but at the end of the day: Exactly. Did elements of the Clinton campaign and some of its surrogates trade in rhetoric that turned off the White Working Class? Sure. But that doesn't explain why we lost hundreds of thousands of votes in Detroit and Milwaukee.
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Nov 10, 2016 15:51
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Third World Reggin posted:How is the correlation of size of the political war chest to how much polls favored a candidate. people like to buy the winning horse
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Nov 10, 2016 15:53
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2006, 2008, 2010, and 2014 have all been massive wave elections against the party in charge, with 2016 not technically being a wave but certainly feeling like one. 2012 was literally the only year in the last decade that supported the party in charge, and that was likely thanks to the raw political abilities of Barack Obama. This is happening to both parties because the wage class has been absolutely loving destroyed in this county, and Donald loving Trump and the GOP aren't going to fix that. The Democratic Party was once the champion of the wage class. Socialist ideals were once proudly held by rural poor whites in Oklahoma and West Virginia. Listen to these people and have real, actual, meaningful conversations and dialogue with them. Stop loving sneering at them simply because they're different and are venting their frustrations in ways you think are "wrong". Many of their concerns are phrased differently but they boil down to the same concerns of the blacks, Hispanics, and educated whites that currently make up the Democratic Party. The last decade shows us that a 2018 wave is coming. The questions are if it'll be big enough, and if we'll actually do anything with it. The worst possible outcome is the Democratic Party doing absolutely nothing differently. There'll be a wave in 2018, and another in 2020 and again in 2022 and each new iteration of the GOP's waves will become more and more nationalist, racist, and fascist. We've stood by and allowed the complete gutting of the wage class. Electoral instability has been the result. The Democratic Party is the natural home for a resurgent wage class. It's time to bring the rural and poor whites back inside.
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Nov 10, 2016 15:54
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I mean Broad City is a legit hilarious show but lol forever if they thought that cameo was gonna help turnout anywhere but already deep blue costal cities.
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Nov 10, 2016 15:56
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A GIANT PARSNIP posted:The last decade shows us that a 2018 wave is coming. The questions are if it'll be big enough, and if we'll actually do anything with it. The worst possible outcome is the Democratic Party doing absolutely nothing differently. There'll be a wave in 2018, and another in 2020 and again in 2022 and each new iteration of the GOP's waves will become more and more nationalist, racist, and fascist. 2018 would have to be a massive, and I mean TRULY MASSIVE, 1932-level wave for the Democrats to meaningfully alter outcomes. There's something like 9 senate seats up for election in Trump-friendly states and two realistic chances to flip Republican seats blue. 2018 is not gonna save the Democratic party unless it undergoes some massive, massive structural shifts in the next year and is blessed with an extraordinarily gifted generation of new leadership.
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Nov 10, 2016 15:56
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mrmcd posted:I mean Broad City is a legit hilarious show but lol forever if they thought that cameo was gonna help turnout anywhere but already deep blue costal cities. Worst Episode Ever.
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Nov 10, 2016 15:56
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We got 80% of the vote in Brooklyn that should just about wrap it up for the whole country I think.
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Nov 10, 2016 15:57
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mrmcd posted:Honestly I think people are overplaying the "Academic Left jargon poisoned us against working class voters" a bit. Sure a lot of people roll their eyes or don't like Lena Dunham but at the end of the day: yeah sure if you want to continue to be the party of 48%-52% of the county located in large cities and a handful of coastal states, and just pray to god that demographic change comes here "soon enough" if you want to actually fix the loving country you're going to need a much larger political party that understands rural whites in Oklahoma or North Dakota or *gasp* even Alabama, and which *double gasp* treats them as equals in a diverse coalition centered on economic justice for all
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Nov 10, 2016 16:00
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lmao haha lol! https://twitter.com/voxdotcom/status/796724116363575297
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Nov 10, 2016 15:59
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A GIANT PARSNIP posted:Stop loving sneering at them simply because they're different and are venting their frustrations in ways you think are "wrong". Many of their concerns are phrased differently but they boil down to the same concerns of the blacks, Hispanics, and educated whites that currently make up the Democratic Party. Racism, bigotry, homophobia, and out and out white nationalism are not something you hand wave away. Its wrong, and its wrong period. Please, lets not whitewash Trumpism. I get that people want to use Clinton's defeat to restart a counterproductive fight between class-only leftists against modern liberals but lets not get carried away. I'm also not some mythical "coastal elite." I live in the South. I know, see, and live around Trump supporters. Trust me, you don't want them in your party. Marlows has issued a correction as of 16:03 on Nov 10, 2016 |
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Nov 10, 2016 16:00
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mrmcd posted:Honestly I think people are overplaying the "Academic Left jargon poisoned us against working class voters" a bit. Sure a lot of people roll their eyes or don't like Lena Dunham but at the end of the day: To my mind there are two disparate issues at work here The first is the same as yours; Hillary is a deeply unpopular career politician who was viewed as an Anointed One during an election cycle in which populism, or at least a cousin of populism, was a huge motivating factor The second has less to do with what the Left did and more to do with what it didn't, and it's not because of academia or whatever - it's that more and more people associate vocal fringe groups with The Left and the Democrats did absolutely nothing to dissuade people from that notion
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Nov 10, 2016 16:02
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HannibalBarca posted:2018 would have to be a massive, and I mean TRULY MASSIVE, 1932-level wave for the Democrats to meaningfully alter outcomes. There's something like 9 senate seats up for election in Trump-friendly states and two realistic chances to flip Republican seats blue. 2018 is not gonna save the Democratic party unless it undergoes some massive, massive structural shifts in the next year and is blessed with an extraordinarily gifted generation of new leadership. *klaxon sounds* 
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Nov 10, 2016 16:03
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Marlows posted:Racism, bigotry, homophobia, and out and out white nationalism are not something you hand wave away. Its wrong, and its wrong period. oh, no, they stayed home or voted for pissass instead nobody's handwaving it away. if trump didn't go on a racist platform he could have stolen the rust belt dems. loving think.
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Nov 10, 2016 16:04
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Can we have like a section of the OP devoted to mathematically showing that Clinton lost because of not turning out Obama voters and nothing more so people stop their idiotic whining about minorities ruining everything thanks.
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Nov 10, 2016 16:04
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HannibalBarca posted:2018 would have to be a massive, and I mean TRULY MASSIVE, 1932-level wave for the Democrats to meaningfully alter outcomes. There's something like 9 senate seats up for election in Trump-friendly states and two realistic chances to flip Republican seats blue. 2018 is not gonna save the Democratic party unless it undergoes some massive, massive structural shifts in the next year and is blessed with an extraordinarily gifted generation of new leadership. A 2006, 2010 or 2014 wave would absolutely put the house in play. That's literally every single midterm election in the last decade.
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Nov 10, 2016 16:06
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Fiction posted:Can we have like a section of the OP devoted to mathematically showing that Clinton lost because of not turning out Obama voters and nothing more so people stop their idiotic whining about minorities ruining everything thanks.
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Nov 10, 2016 16:07
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Fiction posted:Can we have like a section of the OP devoted to mathematically showing that Clinton lost because of not turning out Obama voters and nothing more so people stop their idiotic whining about minorities ruining everything thanks.
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Nov 10, 2016 16:07
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Marlows posted:class-only leftists Literally no one thinks this way.
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Nov 10, 2016 16:08
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mrmcd posted:Honestly I think people are overplaying the "Academic Left jargon poisoned us against working class voters" a bit. Sure a lot of people roll their eyes or don't like Lena Dunham but at the end of the day:  ' meme there was at least an equivalent 'time for a second holocaust' or '(woman who criticized trump) should be raped to death' to more than counter it. I mean, maybe a majority really do find the former more outraging than the latter (god i hope not), but then i imagine there'd be much more of a swing to trump instead of fewer people in Detroit not going out to vote.
Apraxin has issued a correction as of 16:13 on Nov 10, 2016 |
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Nov 10, 2016 16:07
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Clinton was a poo poo candidate who had no vision for America other than her personal desire to be president. Low turnout killed her. The hyper focus on identity was only to take focus off economic/class issues because again, she was a poo poo candidate with no merit in that area. Somehow everyone convinced themselves that not only is it impossible to do two things at once, but that class and identity are somehow mutually exclusive struggles. All we have to do is realize that was a dumb idea created to get hillary through the primaries, combine the two, and start fighting for everyone. The poo poo show the reps are about to vomit up is going to create a great opportunity for progress - it's just a shame it's going to come at a huge price. This is really loving easy.
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Nov 10, 2016 16:08
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A GIANT PARSNIP posted:A 2006, 2010 or 2014 wave would absolutely put the house in play. That's literally every single midterm election in the last decade. I can only hope and pray that those sorts of waves can break Democratic with a post-2010 redistricting map.
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Nov 10, 2016 16:08
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ah yes, the working class stakes out the twitter accounts of campaign surrogates looking for rude memes about white men. that explains our loss.
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Nov 10, 2016 16:08
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Subpar Superhero posted:ah yes, the working class stakes out the twitter accounts of campaign surrogates looking for rude memes about white men. that explains our loss. you're right, the fact that Trump finished 21 points ahead of Clinton among whites has nothing to do with divisive identity politics or a complete lack of courting the white voting base, and everything to do with ?????
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Nov 10, 2016 16:12
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Subpar Superhero posted:ah yes, the working class stakes out the twitter accounts of campaign surrogates looking for rude memes about white men. that explains our loss. oh he just blank wrote-in his ballot instead
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Nov 10, 2016 16:13
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guts and bolts posted:you're right, the fact that Trump finished 21 points ahead of Clinton among whites has nothing to do with divisive identity politics or a complete lack of courting the white voting base, and everything to do with ????? White supremacist politics and economic downturn.
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Nov 10, 2016 16:13
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NOPE I'M BAD AT MATH
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Nov 10, 2016 16:14
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Subpar Superhero posted:ah yes, the working class stakes out the twitter accounts of campaign surrogates looking for rude memes about white men. that explains our loss. that was posted from HRC's account during lena dunham's 'takeover' it's out of touch and deeply ironic on multiple levels
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Nov 10, 2016 16:15
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Fiction posted:White supremacist politics and economic downturn. Dems could've won the brokevote if they even tried that tack, but whoops Also lol so 58% of white voters in America are white supremacists??? That's the lesson we're learning here
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Nov 10, 2016 16:16
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Fiction posted:Can we have like a section of the OP devoted to mathematically showing that Clinton lost because of not turning out Obama voters and nothing more so people stop their idiotic whining about minorities ruining everything thanks. Nobody thinks this or is saying this. Stop strawmanning.
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Nov 10, 2016 16:16
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Marlows posted:Racism, bigotry, homophobia, and out and out white nationalism are not something you hand wave away. Its wrong, and its wrong period. "lol look at these dumb hicks amirite!" is the problem. Treating "white southerners" as some monolithic block is the problem. Believing we'll get nowhere with rural whites is the problem. Do we want to change our message and policies to bring in a majority of white southerners? Maybe not. But there's a percentage that are absolutely receptive to ideas of economic justice and making things better for the wage class. Maybe try treating them like actual loving people who have valid concerns that line up with many of your valid concerns instead of sneering and saying "ugh loving racist Trump supporters!"
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Nov 10, 2016 16:17
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RENEGADE CUCKSKY posted:that was posted from HRC's account during lena dunham's 'takeover' I'd never seen it before and I am on twitter way too much. no doubt it's lovely tho
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Nov 10, 2016 16:17
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A GIANT PARSNIP posted:yeah sure if you want to continue to be the party of 48%-52% of the county located in large cities and a handful of coastal states, and just pray to god that demographic change comes here "soon enough" I don't think we're in disagreement? I think building a coalition on liberal economic interests where rural whites have a seat at the table and OK and ND are blue would be amazing. Probably as a step one though we should stop losing areas we already had because we assume they will "have to" vote for Hillary because Trump bad. Remember all the lol'ing at maps with red PA and MI a week ago? I want to know how the gently caress we missed that. It wasn't because of Lena Dunham or Lady Gaga.
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Nov 10, 2016 16:17
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Calling to appeal to working class whites by abandoning racial politics is a call to appeal to one segment of the democratic coalition by abandoning other parts of that coalition, right after an election where the Democrats were undermined by low turnout caused (so the theory goes) by abandoning key parts of their coalition. It's also impossible. A white supremacist is entering the White House, and Black Lives Matter has been around for years. Neither is going away and racially anxious whites will be getting plenty of stimulus to that anxiety no matter what you do. The call to suppress anti-Trump protests is particularly strange. That is what energised politics looks like. (none of this is a defence of daft poo poo like tweeting about the extinction of white men while working for a campaign, but that goes without saying as basic message discipline)
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Nov 10, 2016 16:18
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| # ? May 10, 2024 03:48 |
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So when literally nothing Trump promised happens in four years but his Pence shadow presidency has completely annihilated all labor unions and work protections they once enjoyed, will the rust belt people come back? Because if not they can feel free to be sucked into fast moving machinery halfway through their 18 hour shift.
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Nov 10, 2016 16:18
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