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KildarX posted:So I keep seeing two depictions of vikings, one is fearsome top tier warriors who ran about stealing and taking from whoever, another is annoying vagabonds who basically just stole from unprotected areas of your kingdom, so you pay them off because you'd rather not spend the time or effort to deal with them. Where on this scale are they, or are both wrong and are something different? Both are true. You could also buy things from them, sell them stuff, go on exploratory ocean voyages with them, or hire them to guard you and your palace.
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Nov 10, 2016 20:44
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:Both are true. You could also buy things from them, sell them stuff, go on exploratory ocean voyages with them, or hire them to guard you and your palace. Stop making me want expeditions: Viking.
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Nov 10, 2016 20:52
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:Both are true. You could also buy things from them, sell them stuff, go on exploratory ocean voyages with them, or hire them to guard you and your palace.
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Nov 10, 2016 20:59
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If you think about it, it makes sense that vikings wouldn't attack fortified areas. Can you imagine trying to haul siege equipment around in those boats? It'd ruin their schtick of showing up, pillaging whatever they can, and skedaddling before a countering force can be mustered to take them out like the waterborne equivalent of horse nomads. What seems weird to me is how they seem to crop up all of a sudden out of nowhere. Was the technology to make naval raids like that just recently developed? Were they there all along and just never bothered with Roman territories while the empire was strong and just picked on Germans up to that point?
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Nov 10, 2016 21:00
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The time Vikings went Crusading is an amazing epic story that I'm surprised is not a series of movies. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Crusade
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Nov 10, 2016 21:02
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SlothfulCobra posted:What seems weird to me is how they seem to crop up all of a sudden out of nowhere. Was the technology to make naval raids like that just recently developed? Were they there all along and just never bothered with Roman territories while the empire was strong and just picked on Germans up to that point? There's a bunch of theories about why the Viking expansion started....shifting of trade routes, too many angry young men with nothing better to do, retaliation against Christian expansion, a lack of food in Scandinavia, and so on, but as far as I'm aware every major theory has a pretty big hole in it and there isn't anything like a consensus except for "who knows".
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Nov 10, 2016 21:08
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Germanic peoples had gone sea-raiding before, that's how you get Anglo-Saxons in Britain.
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Nov 10, 2016 21:18
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Mycroft Holmes posted:Does anyone have any information on what WWI would have looked like (combat plans, technology, politics, etc.) had WWI continued into 1919? It would have looked a lot like this: 
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Nov 10, 2016 21:19
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pthighs posted:It would have looked a lot like this: It's... it's beautiful.
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Nov 10, 2016 21:55
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HEY GAL posted:sounds like a versatile npc class, let's add them to the next campaign Hey so I bet you've answered this before but I can't find the post. My wife and I were talking about your research and she was asking just how you are managing to do most of it, since I think the people in your time period weren't particularly literate. How are you managing to find data and stories? Additionally, for the rest of the thread: What was the biggest killer of Soviet troopers during WW2? Germans? The cold? And I was having a hard time articulating why the information available on "blocking regiments" is mostly bullshit.
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Nov 10, 2016 21:57
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turn it up TURN ME ON posted:Hey so I bet you've answered this before but I can't find the post. My wife and I were talking about your research and she was asking just how you are managing to do most of it, since I think the people in your time period weren't particularly literate. How are you managing to find data and stories? 2. soldiers might be less illiterate than people think. after all, if you're away from your company overnight you technically need a travel pass, and when you leave you need a pass to prove you served and that you left on good terms. This is also the society where if a court case ends in your favor you get a "court ticket" that says you're an honorable person , etc etc. Members of the Mansfeld Regiment also got reciepts written by the regimental secretary if one guy lent another money. I've read about these guys carrying wads of paper with them all the time. And think about it, it makes sense, doesn't it? Everything in a traditional society depends on reputation and word of mouth. But these guys are constantly mobile, how can you do that if you're going to be in a different company six months from now? Surely even if they can't read they're in contact with texts every drat day. In fact, I was just going through three months worth of payrolls for the Saxon Hoffahne. This is a prestigious unit, the Elector's "court company." But even so, there's a surprisingly high level of literacy: averaging up three months' entries, 79.96% of officers and troopers signed for themselves, and only 19.3% of entries were either blank or signed by someone other than the subject of the entry. One man made his mark for a total non-signing percentage of 19.85% (This may not indicate that 19.85% of the troopers were illiterate, since some of the non-signers may have been absent). That's almost eighty percent of these guys who can not only read, they can write too. And not only print, but cursive. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Nov 10, 2016 |
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Nov 10, 2016 22:04
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KildarX posted:So I keep seeing two depictions of vikings, one is fearsome top tier warriors who ran about stealing and taking from whoever, another is annoying vagabonds who basically just stole from unprotected areas of your kingdom, so you pay them off because you'd rather not spend the time or effort to deal with them. Where on this scale are they, or are both wrong and are something different? There's also "people who decided to move into the unprotected areas of your kingdom because they liked the look of the place." Denmark is the couch surfing 34 year old "friend" of history. Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:hire them to guard you and your palace. Your byzantine palace. Yes Byzantium had vikings guarding the Emperor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangian_Guard OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Nov 10, 2016 |
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Nov 10, 2016 22:13
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HEY GAL posted:In fact, I was just going through three months worth of payrolls for the Saxon Hoffahne. This is a prestigious unit, the Elector's "court company." But even so, there's a surprisingly high level of literacy: averaging up three months' entries, 79.96% of officers and troopers signed for themselves, and only 19.3% of entries were either blank or signed by someone other than the subject of the entry. What about the last 0.74% of entries? HEY GAL posted:One man made his mark for a total non-signing percentage of 19.85% (This may not indicate that 19.85% of the troopers were illiterate, since some of the non-signers may have been absent). I'm feeling dumb, but I'm not sure what this means. HEY GAL posted:That's almost eighty percent of these guys who can not only read, they can write too. And not only print, but cursive. Hell, that's better than me.
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Nov 10, 2016 22:18
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:The time Vikings went Crusading is an amazing epic story that I'm surprised is not a series of movies. If there's one thing I've learned from this thread is that there are so many things in history that could be made into awesome movies.
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Nov 10, 2016 22:24
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Elyv posted:What about the last 0.74% of entries? quote:I'm feeling dumb, but I'm not sure what this means.
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Nov 10, 2016 22:23
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HEY GAL posted:That's almost eighty percent of these guys who can not only read, they can write too. And not only print, but cursive. I dunno about that. This is still way higher literacy than I was expecting, either way, but keep in mind being able to write your name doesn't necessarily mean functional literacy. It's relatively straightforward to memorize how to make the strokes for a single thing.
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Nov 10, 2016 23:04
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pthighs posted:It would have looked a lot like this: EX-TER-MIN-ATE!!
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Nov 10, 2016 23:29
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Koramei posted:I dunno about that. This is still way higher literacy than I was expecting, either way, but keep in mind being able to write your name doesn't necessarily mean functional literacy. It's relatively straightforward to memorize how to make the strokes for a single thing.
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Nov 10, 2016 23:33
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xthetenth posted:Stop making me want expeditions: Viking. So I take it Expeditions: Conquistador is a good game? Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:The time Vikings went Crusading is an amazing epic story that I'm surprised is not a series of movies. 
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Nov 10, 2016 23:45
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JcDent posted:So I take it Expeditions: Conquistador is a good game? Yeah I'm a fan. Very good tactical combat system for a party rpg with solid management and interesting questlines covering an interesting time and place. Plus Conquistadora the explorer still makes me laugh.
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Nov 10, 2016 23:48
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turn it up TURN ME ON posted:Hey so I bet you've answered this before but I can't find the post. My wife and I were talking about your research and she was asking just how you are managing to do most of it, since I think the people in your time period weren't particularly literate. How are you managing to find data and stories? From Krivosheev: Killed or died from wounds during evacuation: 5,226,800 Died from wounds in hospitals: 1,102,800 MIA: 620,700 Noncombat losses (disease, accidents, executions): 555,500 of those, Executed: 135,000 Information on "blocking regiments" is bullshit because Hollywood decided to perpetuate the myths sown by books written by German officers after the war. Ensign Expendable fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Nov 10, 2016 |
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Nov 10, 2016 23:54
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HEY GAL posted:writing cursive means knowing how to work the pen too, without spattering or skipping or spilling ink everywhere It also shows that it's a skill you've bothered to cultivate. Anyone can "make his mark" and scraw something to show that he looked at a document, but actually consistently making legible letters is something that takes abit more than just knowing that two lines, a circle, and a half circle in the right order makes the word "cat." Koramei posted:I dunno about that. This is still way higher literacy than I was expecting, either way, but keep in mind being able to write your name doesn't necessarily mean functional literacy. It's relatively straightforward to memorize how to make the strokes for a single thing. It's absolutely true that there is a wide space between what Internet People in TYOOL 2016 consider literacy and being able to sign your name, but functional literacy for someone who isn't a scribe or scholar is also a much, much lower bar than people presume. Think of it this way: How literate is your average second grader? They can read basic things, write sentences, etc, but no one would consider them fully literate in the 20th C. Now imagine how much your average random dude could accomplish with 2nd grade literacy in Hegal's dudes' context. Even just being able to scrawl a three line letter to your buddy apologizing for that time you got drunk and shot his horse out your window is enough for some 21st century historian to put you in her dissertation. THEN stagger that line of thought along a little further and imagine how many people know someone who is capable of writing a letter for them or reading one they got. Access to others who are literate is just as much a concept you have to track as actual literacy itself.
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Nov 10, 2016 23:57
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Ensign Expendable posted:From Krivosheev: Jesus loving christ 135k executions is pretty nuts.
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Nov 10, 2016 23:59
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Because tomorrow is a holiday, they had our rememberance day ceremony today. It was fine, though in the end we were supposed to sing two songs: "Ode to Newfoundland" and "God Save the Queen." Now, most people there knew the tune of the ode, but basically nobody knew the words. This is because either due to age or the poet who wrote it, the song uses a lot of 'thees' and 'thys' etc that are kinda incomprehensible. Then God Save the Queen. Nobody knew the words for that one. The priest officiated knew them, everybody else just hummed.
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Nov 11, 2016 00:24
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It's the national anthem of the UK and nobody here knows it either. Just sing the sex pistols in tune with the original.
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Nov 11, 2016 01:49
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HEY GAL posted:I've read about these guys carrying wads of paper with them all the time. And think about it, it makes sense, doesn't it? Everything in a traditional society depends on reputation and word of mouth. But these guys are constantly mobile, how can you do that if you're going to be in a different company six months from now? Surely even if they can't read they're in contact with texts every drat day. The implication here seems to be that moving guys around long-range because of war partly led to the decline of traditional states and the rise of bureaucracy and literacy in its place, or am I reading too much into this?
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Nov 11, 2016 04:16
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Sort of but not in the way you are thinking. There is a long debated chicken and egg relationship with bureaucratic management and modern military structures. Literate soldiers using those skills as part of the way they determine and preform their social status is more of a product of the world that all that is part of rather than a cause.
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Nov 11, 2016 06:10
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I thought it was somewhat commonly held that it was new, larger fortifications that drove the need for larger armies, which drove a need for more centralization and bureaucracy in order to generate the huge amount of income needed to field those armies.
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Nov 11, 2016 06:28
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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PittTheElder posted:I thought it was somewhat commonly held that it was new, larger fortifications that drove the need for larger armies, which drove a need for more centralization and bureaucracy in order to generate the huge amount of income needed to field those armies. But surely larger fortifications are only possible with more centralization and bureaucracy?
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Nov 11, 2016 06:38
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Neat! I don't see why this has to be a chicken and egg thing. This seems like a self-reinforcing system, then. A small scaling up of military leads to corresponding scaling up of centralized bureaucracy ,which allows further scaling up of the military.... A couple weeks ago I asked if someone could give an outline of the military of the Khazars, and a poster here said they would get back to me. If they wouldn't mind, I'm still very interested.
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Nov 11, 2016 07:41
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There was an explosion of literacy in that era in general, especially with the printing press helping things along. In a roundabout way, it was responsible for the whole war to begin with.
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Nov 11, 2016 07:44
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PittTheElder posted:I thought it was somewhat commonly held that it was new, larger fortifications that drove the need for larger armies, which drove a need for more centralization and bureaucracy in order to generate the huge amount of income needed to field those armies. One of the main reasons that drove Sweden to a more centralized state with larger bureaucracy was that they had lost a war against Denmark and had to pay massive reparations in silver, and couldn't raise the money with their old system.
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Nov 11, 2016 07:56
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Nebakenezzer posted:Because tomorrow is a holiday, they had our rememberance day ceremony today. It was fine, though in the end we were supposed to sing two songs: "Ode to Newfoundland" and "God Save the Queen." Now, most people there knew the tune of the ode, but basically nobody knew the words. This is because either due to age or the poet who wrote it, the song uses a lot of 'thees' and 'thys' etc that are kinda incomprehensible. On ev'ryyyyyyyyyyy mountainside, let's clean 'till spring!
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Nov 11, 2016 08:05
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So I'm on the final chapter of Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. I need more awesome ww2 material. What should I read next? This is the only historical work I've ever read so anything else is new to me. My dad suggested Killing Patton and I'm more than a little skeptical of Bill Oreilly's veracity on the subject.... I want the good stuff!
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Nov 11, 2016 08:17
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Finster Dexter posted:So I'm on the final chapter of Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. I need more awesome ww2 material. What should I read next? This is the only historical work I've ever read so anything else is new to me. Have not read it, but Shattered Sword tends to get a lot of praise in thread.
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Nov 11, 2016 08:42
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I picked up Kokoda by Peter Fitzsimons for my dad. It’s a popular history of the New Guinea campaign, which saw Australians and Japanese fighting in some of the harshest terrain on earth.
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Nov 11, 2016 09:23
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Finster Dexter posted:So I'm on the final chapter of Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. I need more awesome ww2 material. What should I read next? This is the only historical work I've ever read so anything else is new to me. Wages of Destruction is all around excellent.
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Nov 11, 2016 09:56
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KildarX posted:So I keep seeing two depictions of vikings, one is fearsome top tier warriors who ran about stealing and taking from whoever, another is annoying vagabonds who basically just stole from unprotected areas of your kingdom, so you pay them off because you'd rather not spend the time or effort to deal with them. Where on this scale are they, or are both wrong and are something different? Viking as a concept was made up by a nationalist Danish librarian who needed a unifying mythical stereotype of a strong, fearless and capable scandinavian(we usually bat 1 of 3, in reality  ), and so it's really quite ridiculous when historians talk of vikings. Closer to a sensible term is the "viking age", which is the period where norsemen went raiding and conquering, and usually goes from 8th century to mid 11th century. Generally, the "annoying hobo" phase came first, in which fast-moving longboat raids pillaged any non-fortified settlement and left before a response could be formed, and later, realizing the internal division plaguing most other realms, the large conquests movements, such as invasion of England by the Great Heathen Army( Ivar Boneless, Halfdan and Ubbe) of 855( I think). OwlFancier posted:Your byzantine palace. Hagia Sofia is a pro milhist visit, if only for the "Halftan did this" norwegian futhark graffiti on the southern balcony. bewbies posted:There's a bunch of theories about why the Viking expansion started....shifting of trade routes, too many angry young men with nothing better to do, retaliation against Christian expansion, a lack of food in Scandinavia, and so on, but as far as I'm aware every major theory has a pretty big hole in it and there isn't anything like a consensus except for "who knows". Newer theories point to retaliation for christian missions or perhaps fallout from the Saxon wars being more likely, but in truth, it's really hard to say anything for certain. I believe it's confirmed that working land in Denmark and Norway was extremely hard, though, and there definitely was a motivation to conquer arable land.
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Nov 11, 2016 10:00
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Finster Dexter posted:So I'm on the final chapter of Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. I need more awesome ww2 material. What should I read next? This is the only historical work I've ever read so anything else is new to me. The same dude published a diary of his time in Germany in the run up to the war, you might find that interesting.
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Nov 11, 2016 11:13
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Finster Dexter posted:So I'm on the final chapter of Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. I need more awesome ww2 material. What should I read next? This is the only historical work I've ever read so anything else is new to me.
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Nov 11, 2016 11:14
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