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Seat Safety Switch posted:Where do you even source a crate LS3 from in Blighty? PartsworldPerformance 
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Nov 5, 2016 13:23
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| # ? Jun 1, 2024 20:27 |
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Morning chaps. Popped over to DT on Friday and had a look at the engine. We took the head off and...    Was quietly hoping the head would be okay so I could have recouped some money. But hey ho. Also I even managed to destroy my manifolds haha.  Does anyone know if the OEM supplied crank is blued from the factory? We noted this when it came out, and if it's not like that as standard, it looks like I've had some extremely serious oiling issues and heat going on. Annoying as the dash temp gauge never exceeded about 115!  On the bright side, Craig showed me round this 350Z he's just finished. Absolutely amazing! Looks like it was meant to be. I'm still incredibly excited despite the gutting feeling of seeing the old S54!  Also ordered a bunch of ARP hardware. Rebuilding a zero mile engine feels all kinds of wrong, but better to be cautious after this poo poo!
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Nov 7, 2016 10:53
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After a gentle break in you should be much better set than if you did a non zero mile rebuild.
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Nov 7, 2016 15:13
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Bape Culture posted:Also ordered a bunch of ARP hardware. Rebuilding a zero mile engine feels all kinds of wrong, but better to be cautious after this poo poo! http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a27540/regular-car-reviews-ls-powered-chevy-colorado/ denmah posted:People are funny, they come to me and say they want to build a budget race car. So, I'll get them a $200 motor. But then they don't want it, they want to pay more for a clean low-mile motor. Fine. But then, they want to take it apart, completely rebuild it, machine shop, the works...and I'm thinking... "where is the budget?! Ha! Budget Race Car! If the motor was already running in great shape, why take it apart? That's what people do with these turbo LS cars. Then they change the oil pump, put on rod bolts and then have oil pressure and reliability issues." Maybe take it apart and inspect it but if everything is fine I'd just put it back together after cleaning it. Hell, he even reuses gaskets sometimes... while building cars that reliably do 7 and 8 second quarter miles and can be driven to work whenever he wants.
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Nov 7, 2016 16:35
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kastein posted:
I would argue however that running on a track is a slightly different duty cycle than drag stuff.
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Nov 7, 2016 17:09
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kastein posted:http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a27540/regular-car-reviews-ls-powered-chevy-colorado/ An OEM built engine is done better than DIY most of the time I'd say, even if you're meticulous with details. It's down to a science with the machining, torque application, hell even RTV for less leaks. Take a tour of an engine plant, it's kind of eye opening the technology in there. And of course all the OEM parts are designed to work for that engine and has more engineering testing and R&D behind it than any aftermarket stuff available. I like this guy's style.
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Nov 7, 2016 19:01
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I have no problem with building/rebuilding/upgrading engines. but one issue with just switching out fasteners with arp is they usually use a higher torque spec. So things that were round like the main bores might not be anymore with the new bolts. Machine shops will frequently install the new hardware and then do a line bore on the mains for example. And then you open the opportunity for inconsistent values, especially with a torque wrench instead of a stretch gauge.
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Nov 7, 2016 19:14
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mekilljoydammit posted:I would argue however that running on a track is a slightly different duty cycle than drag stuff. So would I, but again, this is rod bolts and head bolts we're talking about here. Denmah has put up videos after nuking a motor (rod broke, iirc) showing absolutely perfect rod bearings and fasteners, the rod still swung around the crank smoothly even, with reused factory hardware, after making drat near 4 figure horsepower numbers I believe. And like I said, he drives the things all the time, it's not a dedicated track car. In fact his hobby seems mostly to be building stupid fast cars with factory parts, driving them wherever he wants whenever he wants, and occasionally going to a track and seeing how close he can get to the time they kick you out for not having a cage by lifting halfway down the track, and/or just seeing how much people make fun of him and then getting kicked out for going insanely fast without the required equipment. He doesn't trailer the thing, he tosses the drag radials in the bed and drives there, sometimes multiple hours on the highway. e: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jMFeCwP6qo "I must have hit 22lbs of boost 40 times on the way here" (gets on the drag strip, sprays the gently caress out of it, runs a 10.29 quarter mile and gets told he has to keep his times over 11.50... oh and the engine sounds better after the run) http://www.lsxmag.com/features/car-features/cheap-thrills-matt-happels-turbo-4-8l-swapped-ford-fairmont/ That's 650hp out of a junkyard 4.8L that... I think maybe he regapped the rings, that's it. I just don't see the reason for ARP bottom end fasteners on a Vortec when the stock stuff clearly puts up with the abuse. Head bolts/studs? Sure, why the hell not, go for it. kastein fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Nov 7, 2016 |
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Nov 7, 2016 22:23
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Stronger than stock hardware for an NA build is overkill. Definitely a baffled oil pan for the cornering g's and maybe roller rockers since this motor is going to live life close to redline. That being said, comparing denmah's stuff to this is kind of apples to oranges.
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Nov 7, 2016 23:20
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kastein posted:
At least back in the day, on the original LS1, there was a (probably real) fear that the rod bolts simply wouldn't hold up to high revs. More of an issue for trying to make big NA power by spinning the thing as fast as you can. A lack of desire to swap rod bolts had my dad shifting this thing around 6800 on the 1-2 and 6500 on the 2-3 if I remember correctly, and then banging the limiter through the traps on a particularly good run: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RkOnnl4BMU Video is ancient but I still love the sound that car made. Longtubes and a cutout.  The cam wasn't even all that big in the grand scheme of things, either.
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Nov 8, 2016 00:22
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kastein posted:So would I, but again, this is rod bolts and head bolts we're talking about here. Denmah has put up videos after nuking a motor (rod broke, iirc) showing absolutely perfect rod bearings and fasteners, the rod still swung around the crank smoothly even, with reused factory hardware, after making drat near 4 figure horsepower numbers I believe. Snipped because of relevant points... boosted drag stuff, again, is going to have a very different failure mode to roadrace stuff. He's making a shitload of power (and I really like his style btw, and am trying to get a coworker to adopt it for one of his projects) but it's not universally applicable. This day and age, manufacturers have a pretty good idea how to get a rod to perform under compression, but an automatic on a drag strip is not under much risk of stretching rod bolts and ovaling the big end of the rods due to a missed downshift or trying to stretch the rev limit a bit to avoid shifting during a corner. The oil on a drag engine isn't going to have the viscosity dropping off a cliff because it's too hot, or be aerated to within an inch of its life by sustained high rpm use. A drag run does not have time to abuse the oil in the same way, you can get away with murder on drag engines, and look, that guy is.
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Nov 8, 2016 00:40
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You are both right and I hadn't really considered high RPMs and oil overheating+aeration.
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Nov 8, 2016 00:58
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If you're going to take it apart and upgrade why not send as many parts as you can to california and get them wpc treated. Piston rings and cam would be pretty cheap to ship and have good ROI.
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Nov 8, 2016 05:50
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Plus the WPC guy is this cool old Japanese dude in a little shop in Torrance. But I don't think he means to take it that far apart, just like putting new main and rod bolts in?
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Nov 8, 2016 05:54
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I think I'm gonna be spinning to 7200. Cam is lairy and loves to rev. 235/239 .629/.623 ARP hardware makes sense to me. But I've been thinking about it as a massive S54 I suppose. Also yeah sump is baffled too for whoever mentioned. So sump is off anyways. Not that much of an effort to upgrade rod bolts. What's this wpc stuff?
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Nov 8, 2016 08:03
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Turning your surfaces into golfballs. Its micro dimpling, done so that your friction surfaces retain oil and other lubricants easier than a polished surface, but small enough so that they dont leak through. Can even get a micro coating of molybdenum during the process. So your piston become engineered like bullet Rigged Death Trap fucked around with this message at 10:08 on Nov 8, 2016 |
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Nov 8, 2016 10:05
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jamal posted:Plus the WPC guy is this cool old Japanese dude in a little shop in Torrance. Is that why MotoIQ likes it so much?
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Nov 8, 2016 16:02
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This is my favourite demo video of what the process achieves. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BF60s6LeQkI
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Nov 8, 2016 16:07
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Seat Safety Switch posted:Is that why MotoIQ likes it so much? Ha, yeah probably, also FXMD was using it and their driver Billy Johnson was writing articles about it. I would offer it when rebuilding Subaru 5-speeds. Probably helps, is not very expensive. 
jamal fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Nov 8, 2016 |
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Nov 8, 2016 18:15
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As this thread goes further down the rabbit hole, I'll throw in something back a page or so ago -- you're putting in a new crate LS, right? Those motors take abuse, daily. They're not some precious snowflake BMW engine with a known failure mode. Don't open it up just to replace one thing that you think needs to be stronger, as was mentioned before -- you very well may gently caress something else up. Slap it in there and drive the gently caress out of it. It's a new Chevy V8. It'll take more abuse than you can give it.
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Nov 8, 2016 20:07
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Yeah, just do an oil pan and an Accusump and go to town.
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Nov 8, 2016 20:08
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I agree, either do a full build on a rough used (cheap) engine, or buy a new one (with a warranty?) and just use it. If you keep the fluids in it, have it running an appropriate map, and use it within its design parameters, it should be fine.
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Nov 8, 2016 20:16
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Oh well it's done now, let's all just hope for the best  I'll have a look into that wpc stuff. I assume there'll be a uk place since basically all motorsport is here. I drank a beer and accidentally bought some wheels.  As far as street wheels go, I think I'd struggle to top these. Will refurb bronze or mag blue idk.
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Nov 8, 2016 20:18
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That WPC demo is really cool, but if you're using lubrication, would a not-compressible fluid gain any benefits from that surface treatment?
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Nov 8, 2016 20:19
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kimbo305 posted:That WPC demo is really cool, but if you're using lubrication, would a not-compressible fluid gain any benefits from that surface treatment? Speaking as someone who worked in the R&D lab of a bearing manufacturer for a couple years... maybe! No, seriously, past a certain level there's no good way to tell anything other than testing. Some poo poo that should work just doesn't, other poo poo does work and who knows why? Someone who'd been at it for 30 some years said that you could spend a whole career analyzing any single specific material combination, so I'm sure as hell not going to guess. I wanted to, but never had a chance to have something treated with WPC and put it on a test rig, which is too bad.
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Nov 8, 2016 20:39
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The best argument I've heard against rebuilding an engine that is running fine is that you're essentially resetting the bathtub curve of reliability by doing so. If everything works out then potentially you're moving forward the other end of the tub by some considerable miles, but you're also putting the engine back into the early failure zone.
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Nov 10, 2016 07:57
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Mocked up a dummy engine! Sits very very very far back! Am I technically mid engined now? 🤔   Aaaaaaaaaaaa
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Nov 10, 2016 22:44
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Will it still go that far back when built up with heads etc?
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Nov 10, 2016 22:45
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Isn't the front-mid sperglord argument something about the front of the crank being behind the front wheel centerline? Either way that's way the hell back. Should make servicing anything on the accessory drive (and cam swaps) easy.
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Nov 10, 2016 22:54
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Have you done the rear subframe reinforcement? Redish motorsport in bristol created the procedure we use and it is very good. Please have it done because if you have not your arse end looks like this   
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Nov 10, 2016 23:25
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IOwnCalculus posted:Isn't the front-mid sperglord argument something about the front of the crank being behind the front wheel centerline? I will only accept if the entire short block is behind the wheel centerline.
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Nov 10, 2016 23:57
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kimbo305 posted:I will only accept if the entire short block is behind the wheel centerline. The crank snout protrudes a bit from the shortblock, so that'd actually be further forward 
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Nov 11, 2016 00:23
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kimbo305 posted:I will only accept if the entire short block is behind the wheel centerline. The S2000 is like this but I haven't seen a lot of people talk about it being mid-engined with any kind of seriousness. Not that I haven't seen that talk out there though.
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Nov 11, 2016 01:15
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fknlo posted:The S2000 is like this but I haven't seen a lot of people talk about it being mid-engined with any kind of seriousness. Not that I haven't seen that talk out there though. Front-mid is a legit thing. Aren't most recent Corvettes?
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Nov 11, 2016 02:30
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I mean, it's a thing, in that some cars do have a noticeably further-back engine location compared to other front engined cars, and it is a definite benefit in polar moment terms, you can't argue with the physics. But I find the existence of the term "front mid-engined", and debate over what does and doesn't count, to be rather inane.
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Nov 11, 2016 02:37
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InitialDave posted:I mean, it's a thing, in that some cars do have a noticeably further-back engine location compared to other front engined cars, and it is a definite benefit in polar moment terms, you can't argue with the physics. Is it any worse than "rear engine" vs "rear mid-engine"?
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Nov 11, 2016 02:55
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I'm sure when the Corvette or Viper engineers were doing their initial briefs on the design, everyone in the room perfunctorily nodded when the lead mentioned "front mid-engined" and then went about their business. If you're doing a two-seat sports car, you can afford the front deck length to put the motor behind the wheels and style as needed.
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Nov 11, 2016 03:23
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Front-mid BS aside drat that's far back, really nice. How will you be dealing with oil pan clearance? From what I've seen LS engines have a deep sump at the front of the engine which would be an issue similar to what I'm running into on my swap. If you can mount it back that far you might be able to get away with just chopping the subframe and squeezing in behind the steering rack. Can I recommend dry sump  Especially since LS pans and kits are all over eBay and comparatively cheap.
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Nov 11, 2016 10:43
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Raluek posted:Is it any worse than "rear engine" vs "rear mid-engine"? kimbo305 posted:I'm sure when the Corvette or Viper engineers were doing their initial briefs on the design, everyone in the room perfunctorily nodded when the lead mentioned "front mid-engined" and then went about their business.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:33
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| # ? Jun 1, 2024 20:27 |
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Eh. Just say the engine is far back enough you can feel the engine in your balls and the weigh distribution is better than your mom's.
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Nov 11, 2016 22:51
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