Jenner posted:

In short, I'm a loving idealistic piece of poo poo.

anime was right posted:

ill win

Venom Snake posted:

lol

Atrocious Joe posted:

Dude you're a 20 year old Dem apparatchik who got his position thanks to familial connections right? Your heart's in the right place but uhhhh like drat. Take your skills and work for a union if you want change. Unite Here has a decent presence around DC if you're impressed with what their Culinary Union local did in Nevada.

anime was right posted:

ill win

Jenner posted:

HOLY loving poo poo STOP. You don't understand. You think it is easy to just pack up and leave and go where the grass is greener because that is probably what you did and it was easy for you. But you are not them. You do not know their situation. Their whole life is/was in that lovely dying town. Their whole community. Their friends are there, their neighbors are there, their community is there, their churches/places of worship are there. They have spent decades being a part of this city. I am sure a not insignificant sum of them are living in houses that have been in their families for generations. Their schools are there, their entire history is in that town. They had their first date there, lost their virginity there, got married, started a family, raised a family there. And you would just tell them to pack up and move? To leave everything behind? It's not so easy for them. Lima Ohio is not loving Centralia Pennsylvania. You see a people clinging to the past and dying in obscurity who need to move on for their own sakes. But these people see it as abandoning their history and their way of life.

Even if we were able to, by some miracle, move an entire community to a better location you assume they'll be able to integrate. To qualify and get the jobs that are available. To adapt. Maybe they would, but they might not.

On paper it looks good to consolidate the spread out population into bigger cities. More people = more demand and more demand = more jobs etc etc. But it doesn't always work like that. The demand is already in these cities and no one is investing. Also, you're forgetting/neglecting the human element. You're taking the people out of the picture and you are ignoring their wants. You come swooping in thinking you know what's best for them but you've already marginalized them. You are failing to see them as people. If you come charging in as the great savior of suffering whites and forcibly relocate them they are not going to look at you favorably. They are gonna see you as some loving rear end in a top hat making them leave their homes. They'd probably loving riot. These struggling people already justifiably believe their way of life is under attack and you wanna do this? Jesus loving christ.

I like the plan to plop down government run factories that make stuff in as many dying piece of poo poo towns as we can idea better. If the jobs are there people from surrounding areas might actually self consolidate for their own benefit rather than being forced by us and resenting it. And if we go full on FDR and lock/fix housing prices so they don't start getting ridiculously expensive once the area gets prosperous and there's a high demand to be there we can make sure the people who really need to be there can still afford to.


Woah drat. I am a cis bisexual disabled white woman who grew up in poverty but even I don't know what it is like to be an easily identified, and thus discrimated against and targeted, minority. But all your life you have probably been told to be careful and be wary. I have no doubts that you have experienced many situations where you have been actively discrimated against. I can't imagine how difficult it must be to see this country embolden and legitimize hatred, intolerance and fear the way it has this election. I imagine you feel quite rejected and unwanted. But I'm making a lot of assumptions.

Racism is a serious problem in this country and we need to talk about it. And we cannot ignore that our future President is a person who campaigned on racism and that we, as a country, accepted that. This is not meant to imply that all Trump supporters are racist. But it is a factual statement. Trump was endorced by racists and supported by racists and people supported him and voted for him. Again, this does not make them racists. But it is still troubling that they did not find his racism objectionable enough to vote differently.

But as it has been said, most of these people are not effected by racism and they were desperate and suffering and Trump promised them salvation. They were probably largely not concerned with the consequences of their decision (the emboldening and legitimization of racism) because what was foremost in their mind was their own struggles. It is hard to consider and support the suffering of others when you yourself are suffering.

I have come to realize that a person can be a "good person" and still have horrible beliefs. They don't go out of their way to commit hate crimes but they /believe/ in stereotypes and prejudices. They are influenced by rhetoric and agendas that appeal and pander to their fear and hatred. They support candidates and legislation that unfairly targets minorities. They go about their lives being good spouses, providers, parents, workers, worshippers, etc never actively hurting anyone and ignorant of the effects the policies they and their candidates push and support continue have on the underprivileged and how they continue to perpetuate a system of discrimination on an institutional level.

And yes, by supporting Trump they are championing his beliefs and even if they are merely one of the proclaimed apathetic supporters that were sold on his policies and promises they are still perpetuating bigotry.

But again, it's not about you it's about them. It's about their wants and their needs and while for some it was personal for many it was simply survival. Hillary told them the truth, that coal was dead and manufacturing was dying. That they'd have to change and adapt and work. Trump lied to them and told him he could bring coal back and bring manufacturing back and bring them prosperity. And it didn't matter that he is racist, and it didn't matter that he could not actually do it. They needed saved. Democrats have been promising suffering whites salvation for years and largely failed to deliver. Trump is just doing the same drat thing.

And dismissing all Trump supporters as a bunch of racists and bigots is not doing you any favors. It is being elitist. You are not seeing them as people and you are not listening to their problems. Just because some of them might be racists and bigots does not mean they all are or that they are unworthy of help or sympathy. Where is all our much lauded liberal tolerance when it comes to people we disagree with? We are dehumanizing them and not bothering to even get to know them and just writing them off as a whole and isn't that what they are doing to minorities? We should be reaching out to them and helping them.

Also, calling someone a racist/bigot does not stop them from being racist or bigoted. The best way to combat racism and bigotry is to integrate with them and reach out to them. Because many of them are very isolated. Once they begin personally knowing minorities as people it becomes much more difficult for them to dehumanize and dismiss them.

Of course, it is not a minority's job to fix white people. But that doesn't change the fact that people who grow up in areas with greater diversity and interaction are statistically less likely to be racist/bigoted.

But yeah, I can understand not wanting to muck about with people you feel don't even see you as a person and who you feel threatened and intimidated by. You have no obligation to put yourself out there.

Just, try not to be as equally consumed by hate. Don't be reduced to their level. These are still people and I believe most of them can be reasoned with.

But, I'm a white person and I hardly know poo poo about this. I definitely am not intending to excuse racism in this post, racism is inexcusable. I just don't like how liberals have been propping ourselves up and spitting down on people who are suffering and lashing out. Especially when liberals have our own problems with racism. We are not immune.

In short, I'm a loving idealistic piece of poo poo.

Jenner posted:

HOLY loving poo poo STOP. You don't understand. You think it is easy to just pack up and leave and go where the grass is greener because that is probably what you did and it was easy for you. But you are not them. You do not know their situation. Their whole life is/was in that lovely dying town. Their whole community. Their friends are there, their neighbors are there, their community is there, their churches/places of worship are there. They have spent decades being a part of this city. I am sure a not insignificant sum of them are living in houses that have been in their families for generations. Their schools are there, their entire history is in that town. They had their first date there, lost their virginity there, got married, started a family, raised a family there. And you would just tell them to pack up and move? To leave everything behind? It's not so easy for them. Lima Ohio is not loving Centralia Pennsylvania. You see a people clinging to the past and dying in obscurity who need to move on for their own sakes. But these people see it as abandoning their history and their way of life.

Even if we were able to, by some miracle, move an entire community to a better location you assume they'll be able to integrate. To qualify and get the jobs that are available. To adapt. Maybe they would, but they might not.

On paper it looks good to consolidate the spread out population into bigger cities. More people = more demand and more demand = more jobs etc etc. But it doesn't always work like that. The demand is already in these cities and no one is investing. Also, you're forgetting/neglecting the human element. You're taking the people out of the picture and you are ignoring their wants. You come swooping in thinking you know what's best for them but you've already marginalized them. You are failing to see them as people. If you come charging in as the great savior of suffering whites and forcibly relocate them they are not going to look at you favorably. They are gonna see you as some loving rear end in a top hat making them leave their homes. They'd probably loving riot. These struggling people already justifiably believe their way of life is under attack and you wanna do this? Jesus loving christ.

I like the plan to plop down government run factories that make stuff in as many dying piece of poo poo towns as we can idea better. If the jobs are there people from surrounding areas might actually self consolidate for their own benefit rather than being forced by us and resenting it. And if we go full on FDR and lock/fix housing prices so they don't start getting ridiculously expensive once the area gets prosperous and there's a high demand to be there we can make sure the people who really need to be there can still afford to.


Woah drat. I am a cis bisexual disabled white woman who grew up in poverty but even I don't know what it is like to be an easily identified, and thus discrimated against and targeted, minority. But all your life you have probably been told to be careful and be wary. I have no doubts that you have experienced many situations where you have been actively discrimated against. I can't imagine how difficult it must be to see this country embolden and legitimize hatred, intolerance and fear the way it has this election. I imagine you feel quite rejected and unwanted. But I'm making a lot of assumptions.

Racism is a serious problem in this country and we need to talk about it. And we cannot ignore that our future President is a person who campaigned on racism and that we, as a country, accepted that. This is not meant to imply that all Trump supporters are racist. But it is a factual statement. Trump was endorced by racists and supported by racists and people supported him and voted for him. Again, this does not make them racists. But it is still troubling that they did not find his racism objectionable enough to vote differently.

But as it has been said, most of these people are not effected by racism and they were desperate and suffering and Trump promised them salvation. They were probably largely not concerned with the consequences of their decision (the emboldening and legitimization of racism) because what was foremost in their mind was their own struggles. It is hard to consider and support the suffering of others when you yourself are suffering.

I have come to realize that a person can be a "good person" and still have horrible beliefs. They don't go out of their way to commit hate crimes but they /believe/ in stereotypes and prejudices. They are influenced by rhetoric and agendas that appeal and pander to their fear and hatred. They support candidates and legislation that unfairly targets minorities. They go about their lives being good spouses, providers, parents, workers, worshippers, etc never actively hurting anyone and ignorant of the effects the policies they and their candidates push and support continue have on the underprivileged and how they continue to perpetuate a system of discrimination on an institutional level.

And yes, by supporting Trump they are championing his beliefs and even if they are merely one of the proclaimed apathetic supporters that were sold on his policies and promises they are still perpetuating bigotry.

But again, it's not about you it's about them. It's about their wants and their needs and while for some it was personal for many it was simply survival. Hillary told them the truth, that coal was dead and manufacturing was dying. That they'd have to change and adapt and work. Trump lied to them and told him he could bring coal back and bring manufacturing back and bring them prosperity. And it didn't matter that he is racist, and it didn't matter that he could not actually do it. They needed saved. Democrats have been promising suffering whites salvation for years and largely failed to deliver. Trump is just doing the same drat thing.

And dismissing all Trump supporters as a bunch of racists and bigots is not doing you any favors. It is being elitist. You are not seeing them as people and you are not listening to their problems. Just because some of them might be racists and bigots does not mean they all are or that they are unworthy of help or sympathy. Where is all our much lauded liberal tolerance when it comes to people we disagree with? We are dehumanizing them and not bothering to even get to know them and just writing them off as a whole and isn't that what they are doing to minorities? We should be reaching out to them and helping them.

Also, calling someone a racist/bigot does not stop them from being racist or bigoted. The best way to combat racism and bigotry is to integrate with them and reach out to them. Because many of them are very isolated. Once they begin personally knowing minorities as people it becomes much more difficult for them to dehumanize and dismiss them.

Of course, it is not a minority's job to fix white people. But that doesn't change the fact that people who grow up in areas with greater diversity and interaction are statistically less likely to be racist/bigoted.

But yeah, I can understand not wanting to muck about with people you feel don't even see you as a person and who you feel threatened and intimidated by. You have no obligation to put yourself out there.

Just, try not to be as equally consumed by hate. Don't be reduced to their level. These are still people and I believe most of them can be reasoned with.

But, I'm a white person and I hardly know poo poo about this. I definitely am not intending to excuse racism in this post, racism is inexcusable. I just don't like how liberals have been propping ourselves up and spitting down on people who are suffering and lashing out. Especially when liberals have our own problems with racism. We are not immune.

In short, I'm a loving idealistic piece of poo poo.

zen death robot posted:

Grietens won so that's the 2nd time a GOP governor won in like 50 years also no one to veto right to work so we're basically gonna be Kansas with a major city that probably wishes it could somehow become part of Illinois now.

Atrocious Joe posted:

https://twitter.com/lhfang/status/796992668463087616

VirtualStranger posted:

You should all watch this, especially the first 40 minutes. Richard Wolff is great.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0IwIOUg_Cs

Larry Parrish posted:

Richard wolf explained it better than I can. The Democratic Party must be abandoned because capitalism has failed the base and the Democratic Party is a tool of the capitalist elite

VirtualStranger posted:

You should all watch this, especially the first 40 minutes. Richard Wolff is great.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0IwIOUg_Cs

Larry Parrish posted:

Richard wolf explained it better than I can. The Democratic Party must be abandoned because capitalism has failed the base and the Democratic Party is a tool of the capitalist elite

anime was right posted:

man there is some legit fire in lee's tweets.

https://twitter.com/lhfang/status/796883925545066496

Atrocious Joe posted:

This is one area where President Trump should be an inspiration

Venom Snake posted:

A lot of economists think basic income is a good idea because it increases consumer spending so it's an issue you can get elites to support. It's not a perfect solution as you said though. You still need to give people something to do.

Venom Snake posted:

I'm going back to college and going to be working local there. I do actually need to get an education and have a life outside of politics

Venom Snake posted:

Help a fledgling DC insider understand the world

Larry Parrish posted:

also holy poo poo I'm so tried of the white guys in this thread acting like racism is inherent to whites or something. Racism is not simply a product of upbringing or a small area dominated by a single culture.

Racism is mostly a product of having what little you have left drain away and needing a target to lash out at.

"Real" racism based purely on skin color or whatever exists too, but again it's not a white only thing. Like for example there's the Latino remnants of the colonial system where anyone who looks native or black is basically treated like an uneducated serf.

If economic problems were solved, the largest problems of racism outside corrupt police departments would be solved too.

Nonsense posted:

LastInLine posted:

You and I both know that any "worker's rights" reform inevitably get monkey's pawed into a grotesque way to benefit capital entrepreneurs. Democrats can't bump the minimum wage, do you really think they could ever increase labor costs 33% across the board? Even if they did the resulting inflation would be unmanageable.

Hell, Democrats can't even stop Right to Work (not that I believe they actually want to.

Larry Parrish posted:

also holy poo poo I'm so tried of the white guys in this thread acting like racism is inherent to whites or something. Racism is not simply a product of upbringing or a small area dominated by a single culture.

Racism is mostly a product of having what little you have left drain away and needing a target to lash out at.

"Real" racism based purely on skin color or whatever exists too, but again it's not a white only thing. Like for example there's the Latino remnants of the colonial system where anyone who looks native or black is basically treated like an uneducated serf.

If economic problems were solved, the largest problems of racism outside corrupt police departments would be solved too.

Jenner posted:

Pathos posted:

Venom Snake -- I posted this ages ago but I really really want as close to a definitive answer as possible: Why did Hillary pick Tim Kaine? Of all people? I get that he's a nice guy but... why? Just why? It was so safe and establishment and loving why?

hailthefish posted:

The rust belt is what cost the dems the EC this time around, but the problem is everywhere. If your solution is geographically hyperfocused you'll win a few more presidencies but gently caress everything even harder down the road.

Stop taking the unions for granted. There are plenty of workers who mistrust unions because the unions are perceived, fairly or not, as another extension of the democratic party apparatus that care 200% about raising money for any democrat with a pulse and 0% about actually fighting for workers on the local level.

Don't just learn from the tea party's tactics, realize that the whole thing started because people were mad as hell their hard earned money was used to bail out the bankers that created and profited from the housing crash. There are a shitload of republicans voting against their own economic interests because they don't perceive the democrats as being any better for them (and they're usually not all that wrong lol).

You absolutely could sell a mincome-shaped-object to the republican-voting joe on the street if you can come up with a coherent plan to fund it and manage to phrase it as 'definitely not socialism'. Make it about shrinking the government and simplifying the tax code and getting rid of the incomprehensible morass of bureaucracy that treats hard-working americans like criminals. They might try to fight you about 'blah blah welfare queens with cadillacs' and if you respond 'omg that's racist!' you will lose them (even though it kinda is, even though they don't really realize, because welfare has been sold for so long as 'a thing for poor minorities' while they watch their own livelihoods die and nobody gives a gently caress). Instead try: the rules that exist to stop people claiming benefits unjustly are the rules that make their disabled family members jump through ridiculous hoops several times a year to continually prove that they're still poor and still disabled & if people are getting benefits 'unjustly' at least they're putting that money back into the economy to benefit ~small business owners~.

Continue to help small business owners, especially small business owners that aren't necessarily tech startups in coastal cities, because if there IS a hope for the dying rural towns and for the dying middle class, small business is definitely part of it.

also

This has been said already and it was poorly received but holy gently caress it is time to give the hell up on gun control. Pro-2A single issue voters, unlike the hardcore pro-lifers, are otherwise pretty loving diverse. Stop treating them like criminals/crazies/loving incomprehensible space aliens from another dimension. While the climate of fear in the aftermath of the election of Donald loving Trump might be a little hyperbolic, it should at least demonstrate that it's not completely insane that normal, reasonable people might be concerned about someday needing to fear for their safety and their civil liberties and wanting to be prepared for that eventuality.

Gun ownership, shooting sports, and hunting are also a huge part of rural and working-class identity in a lot of places. Previous attempts to try to appeal to the demographic weren't taken seriously because moneyed coastal elites playing dress-up and awkward pictures of Obama skeet-shooting with a $2,200 shotgun aren't actually relatable.

Making the 2nd amendment a partisan issue was and continues to be a terrible idea. Get your politicians familiar with guns, gun laws, get them to stop saying retarded poo poo about shoulder things that go up and military style weapons of war and what the gently caress ever, and move the gently caress on with trying to address the root causes of crime and undiagnosed mental health problems without treating gun owners like a bunch of crazy racist hicks. Go make friends with the Pink Pistols holy loving poo poo.

ffs TFR was feelin' the Bern right up until he changed his tune about the PLCAA and then Hillary "The Supreme Court Is Wrong On The Second Amendment" Clinton got the nomination and you'll never guess what happened next!

anyway enough stupid out of me

Frame this loving post dudes.

hailthefish posted:

anyway enough stupid out of me

Homework Explainer posted:

my dude i am a communist do you think i am not aware of the massive institutional inertia barring all workers' legislation? i mention it as a possibility while knowing the only way we get the poo poo we want to get is through mass politics and revolution

same goes for guaranteed employment. a capitalist state is never gonna get rid of the reserve army of labor, that's why socialism is necessary

Larry Parrish posted:

Anyway sorry for angrily telling white guys to shut up about racism like 8 times tonight but it gets so loving old when the guys who are supposedly champions for your people act like your a statistic that unconditionally supports them

Lastgirl posted:

Which is why we are probating the race baiting~

It's dumb and bad.


Which is why this was a pretty solid post on the racism, even though it's a bit wordy for C-SPAM, it was a good effort post that wasn't a crazy rant that doesn't result in me having to ask if Jenner wanted fries with that.

I agree because I talked with my mom about it, she had a pretty good insight, since she's a school principal, in a semi rural area where she has to commute from a bigger town. About a 40 minute drive. So she knows whats going on, but she's an educated liberal in a sea of rednecks lol

So if people keep thinking if its economic anxiety or racism, the answer is both. You can make the jokes about "wow that sure is some economic anxiety" as a dogwhistle for racism, which is partially true for some, but you can't be completely dismissive of the fact that they are really concerned about their livelihood. Their towns are dying, and their infrastructures are crumbling and they are not equipped to just move away and find new jobs because they don't have the education.

They're stuck there, angry and forgotten so yea, racism is going to get into the fold because why? The republicans are telling them who's at fault and they are so ignorant and sheltered that they cannot see that they're being swindled, all they can do is desperately put their hopes on trump. Thats where the racism comes from, they feel like their livelhood is at stake because republicans are going, oh its the blacks, oh its the muslims, and the republicans are going to run out of excuses very shortly once they have finished pumping the middle class bone dry out of their money.

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

Don't watch the network news, my dude, because the experts at MSNBC can't believe your people failed Hillary like that.