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Bad Decision Dino posted:The problem is that capitalism is based on overhyping and overselling as much as you can, and it makes a more realistic view of reality seem very depressing. Oh I'm well aware of why classical Marxists are super depressing. I just also already have clinical depression. If I were a mentally healthy individual I'd probably be a classical Marxist too but lmao at the idea of that poo poo with how I am now, I'd probably kill myself.
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Nov 11, 2016 11:23
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The fact that in the year 2016 the phrase "I'm a Marxist" is met with anything except laughter and derision is incredible to me. It's worse than "I believe Ayn Rand should guide our economy"
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Nov 11, 2016 11:25
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Non Serviam posted:The fact that in the year 2016 the phrase "I'm a Marxist" is met with anything except laughter and derision is incredible to me. It's worse than "I believe Ayn Rand should guide our economy" I'm not gonna lie I want to know in spite of myself what the hell you think you're supposed to be politically. Like are you an anti-Rand libertarian or what because nothing you say makes sense with the labels you've rejected. Like I legitimately thought you were a tankie but I guess not. Mister Macys posted:Except that's what the Democratic Party did; try to browbeat everyone to vote for Hillary out of nothing more than fear of Trump and what his administration might do (or automatically be labeled a racist/bigot). I think posters in this thread are talking past each other re: shaming voters. I don't think anybody smart thinks that the Democratic Party should keep trying to shame voters. I think we're saying that we personally should consider people who are liberal but didn't bother showing up to be lovely people. The Democratic Party needs every vote it can get and can't afford to be doing that poo poo but we as individuals can do whatever we want.
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Nov 11, 2016 11:28
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Non Serviam posted:The fact that in the year 2016 the phrase "I'm a Marxist" is met with anything except laughter and derision is incredible to me. It's worse than "I believe Ayn Rand should guide our economy"
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Nov 11, 2016 11:29
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Lightning Knight posted:I love that having a cavalier attitude towards the problems of white people is wrong and bad but having a cavalier attitude towards the problems of minorities is just being pragmatic. i'm being an rear end in a top hat specifically because you are clinging to bullshit to justify hillary's loss. if we ever want to fix this situation, we have to have a clear view of what happened and "hillary lost because of racism" is reductionist to the point of being wrong and will lose us 2018. i don't like that white people have a cavalier attitude to the plight of minorities, but that's the way things are. pandering to economic justice wouldn't have stopped hillary from being elected or protecting minorities, but she chose not to bother with economic justice and we lost. trump offered people who have been suffering for a long time a pipe-dream, while hillary offered them an 8 year continuation of the nightmare. that turned out to be the stronger issue in this election. pretending the voters we lost to trump, or the people who didn't vote for clinton are irredeemable racists isn't going to win us anything in the near future and it might actually cement the country for trump. however, if we learn our lessons and come out strong in 2018, maybe we can survive somehow.
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Nov 11, 2016 11:30
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Condiv posted:this was not a convincing enough argument! first of all, it was coming out of hillary clinton, least trusted candidate in america. second of all, people aren't 100% rational machines. you can cry all you want about how it should've been, but it wasn't and people were warning it wasn't for a long time. it was the economy stupid, hillary ignored that and if she hadn't she almost definitely would've pulled the number needed to protect minorities for another 4 years. I've cried quite a bit so far, it's true. Oh, you meant 'whining', didn't you? Mister Macys posted:Except that's what the Democratic Party did; try to browbeat everyone to vote for Hillary out of nothing more than fear of Trump and what his administration might do (or automatically be labeled a racist/bigot). Well, I guess the people worrying about being on the streets and then voting for Trump will have lots of company now. I get what you're saying and I don't disagree with most of it, but I'm also calling bullshit on Trump's supporters being all desperate poor people. The rust belt states, sure. But they're not the only people who voted for Trump, nor do poor people make up the majority of his base. And I have a sneaking suspicion most if not all of the Bernouts, at least those I've seen being vocal about it the past few months, are probably not in this category. Every single one of them I've encountered so far seems to be a medium income (if not higher) straight white dude. I'm sure there are some that aren't, but that's a convenient trend they've got going there.
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Nov 11, 2016 11:30
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kartikeya posted:I've cried quite a bit so far, it's true. no i meant cry
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Nov 11, 2016 11:32
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Condiv posted:however, if we learn our lessons and come out strong in 2018, maybe we can survive somehow. I'm disinclined to keep talking in circles about moral judgements but this make me laugh because lmao if you think leftists will recover enough to win anything in two years time. It'll take at least eight years to find enough people to win back the Presidency and Senate and probably another ten afterwards to retake the House. That's assuming we can manage to get two presidents in a row one day too.
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Nov 11, 2016 11:35
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Lightning Knight posted:
This has pretty much been my constant refrain, yeah. You're more articulate about it, and it doesn't help that I've had very little sleep since the nation decided to shoot itself in the face. Condiv posted:no i meant cry Well thanks for giving me permission to mourn a bunch of entirely avoidable deaths, I guess.
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Nov 11, 2016 11:34
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kartikeya posted:This has pretty much been my constant refrain, yeah. You're more articulate about it, and it doesn't help that I've had very little sleep since the nation decided to shoot itself in the face. It's ok. I keep realizing more and more horrible things to be true about the impending Trump administration (I refuse to grant him capital letters or official titles, gently caress him he's not my president) and he hasn't even taken office yet. The news headlines for the next eight years are going to be Lovecraftian-ly nightmarish.
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Nov 11, 2016 11:38
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Lightning Knight posted:I'm not gonna lie I want to know in spite of myself what the hell you think you're supposed to be politically. Like are you an anti-Rand libertarian or what because nothing you say makes sense with the labels you've rejected. The GOP at least did a post-mortem (even if they did the opposite of everything that was suggested to fix their problem) in 2012. I genuinely wonder if the Democratic Leadership will even bother.
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Nov 11, 2016 11:39
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Mister Macys posted:The GOP at least did a post-mortem (even if they did the opposite of everything that was suggested to fix their problem) in 2012. I mean I'm sure they will, it just won't be anything any of us wants to hear. Remember the progressives on the internet braying for Clinton allies' blood aren't really representative of your average Democrat. Even average Democratic voters aren't going to be happy about an attempt to purge the party of anybody to the right of Warren, and we still need to be able to attract donors and money so long as money is eating politics alive. This is one thing that makes me immensely unhappy re: progressives insisting they are outside and separate from the party. You can't change the direction of an organization you don't participate in. The major lesson we should've learned from Bernie's primary loss is that you can't start campaigning for a position a year out. We need organization, allies, money, and all that poo poo that helped Hillary win the primary.
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Nov 11, 2016 11:41
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Condiv posted:i'm ... an rear end in a top hat Gonna save people some time catching up on the thread later. If you want to talk about ineffective ways to win an election continue shouting down valid concerns of marginalized groups because you want to yell about how you know the true reason the dems lost and we need to listen to you right the gently caress now when some people are probably still heavily stressed and ill from the fact a fascist got elected two days ago and a bunch of supposed progressives sat out because they weren't enthused enough and also in some cases were stupid enough to give a poo poo about things like ~emails~
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Nov 11, 2016 11:42
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Non Serviam posted:The fact that in the year 2016 the phrase "I'm a Marxist" is met with anything except laughter and derision is incredible to me. It's worse than "I believe Ayn Rand should guide our economy" The fact that "I believe in capitalism" is met with anything except laughter despite the ongoing rise in populist fascism, current capitalism created climate change, and the increasing isolation and loss of effective control by the capitalist class, is incredible to me.
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Nov 11, 2016 11:44
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steinrokkan posted:The fact that "I believe in capitalism" is met with anything except laughter despite the ongoing rise in populist fascism, current capitalism created climate change, and the increasing isolation and loss of effective control by the capitalist class, is incredible to me. We can never take away from capitalists that they were better marketers and they poo poo down socialists' throats in the Cold War. The left has always, always, always sucked at salesmanship and connecting with people on why we are the better option.
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Nov 11, 2016 11:45
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Lightning Knight posted:I'm disinclined to keep talking in circles about moral judgements but this make me laugh because lmao if you think leftists will recover enough to win anything in two years time. It'll take at least eight years to find enough people to win back the Presidency and Senate and probably another ten afterwards to retake the House. That's assuming we can manage to get two presidents in a row one day too. glad you've given up. that'll surely help minorities more than trying to win something back in 2018 kartikeya posted:Well thanks for giving me permission to mourn a bunch of entirely avoidable deaths, I guess. you're welcome. i'm devastated too. it's too bad hillary was so arrogant or we wouldn't be in this mess. also too bad people viewed her as the "safe" candidate
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Nov 11, 2016 11:46
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Lightning Knight posted:We can never take away from capitalists that they were better marketers and they poo poo down socialists' throats in the Cold War. The left has always, always, always sucked at salesmanship and connecting with people on why we are the better option.
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Nov 11, 2016 11:47
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Lightning Knight posted:I'm not gonna lie I want to know in spite of myself what the hell you think you're supposed to be politically. Like are you an anti-Rand libertarian or what because nothing you say makes sense with the labels you've rejected. I don't know what a Tankie is. I believe in a capitalist system in which the free market is limited through governmental intervention. It has worked very well in many European countries without the need to adopt a murderous ideology that deprives humans of their fundamental rights to own property and to be free. I'm sure I'll hear why every failed Marxist state wasn't a real Marxist (because true Scotsmen never get old).
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Nov 11, 2016 11:47
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Bad Decision Dino posted:Please detail to me any way of organising a society where the lower class can continue to earn a living wage in a world when automation is able to replace more jobs every year, other than communism. "Communism" or "Marxism" are incredibly bad words to describe the kind of system y'all are envisioning (well, I don't know exactly what you envision, but I can kinda guess). Of course if you actually meant the kind of system where people are literally tortured and murdered for daring to disagree with the Wise Leaders, and all official communication consists of nothing but blatant lies and bullshit, then communism is a very apt description.
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Nov 11, 2016 11:48
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Condiv posted:glad you've given up. that'll surely help minorities more than trying to win something back in 2018 I mean I haven't given up in the sense that I support the same poo poo I supported before. I am simply saying that rebuilding a destroyed political party is gonna take a lot longer than two years. Bad Decision Dino posted:The only thing capitalism has ever really beat communism on is the ability to poo poo out tanks and guns. Meh. I feel that understanding that capitalism out propaganda'd socialism in the 20th century is an important concession. Also understanding that the most public faces of socialism were lovely rear end countries like the Soviet Union and PRC. Non Serviam posted:I don't know what a Tankie is. A tankie is a Marxist who feels that anti-Americanism is important enough to side with people like Putin as "anti-imperialists" and who will use racial minorities as a cudgel without really caring about what happens to them. They're the Marxist equivalent of brogressives. So you are just a silly libertarian. Good to know.
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Nov 11, 2016 11:49
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kartikeya posted:
Personally, I was picturing a poor Democrat family that voted in 2008/12 that stayed home (one of the six million) as my example. Plenty of room for interpretation, I suppose. *They believe in Obama's message, and there they are; eight years later, now with a kid or two, and no better/even worse off. And along comes Bernie, and he's saying (some of) the right things! But he loses... Then into their community hockey arena comes Hillary, the wife of a president! But... she doesn't tell them anything they want to hear that will address their issues, not even a lie.* I mean, what the gently caress Hill-dawg. You're a career politician, and you're not even going to lie to people to get their vote? You're going to half-rear end an answer and evade the issue? Not tell them what they want to hear? Are you really sure you want to be President? Mister Facetious fucked around with this message at 11:54 on Nov 11, 2016 |
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Nov 11, 2016 11:51
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Condiv posted:glad you've given up. that'll surely help minorities more than trying to win something back in 2018 Kindly gently caress off. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 11, 2016 11:51
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jaete posted:"Communism" or "Marxism" are incredibly bad words to describe the kind of system y'all are envisioning (well, I don't know exactly what you envision, but I can kinda guess). No, you see, all those communist regimes where millions of people were executed were not really communists, man.
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Nov 11, 2016 11:50
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Basically this thread now went to "gently caress Trump's authoritarianism... It'd be so much better if we got our own authoritarianism to gently caress America! "
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Nov 11, 2016 11:52
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kartikeya posted:
Why do all people jump to the conclusion that "all" Trump supporters are poor, rural or whatever. Of course not. But in a situation where thousands of people swung the election, enough of them are to warrant a contemplation on what went wrong, even if that "enoug" is just a percent or two. More of the same demographic also abstained from vote, which means they too helped Trump, so tie these two factors together and do a post mortem.
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Nov 11, 2016 11:54
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Lightning Knight posted:I mean I haven't given up in the sense that I support the same poo poo I supported before. I am simply saying that rebuilding a destroyed political party is gonna take a lot longer than two years. agreed it'll be a lot of work, but we don't know what can happen in two years. we can only work as hard as we can for the future we want if we're going to survive this
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Nov 11, 2016 11:53
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Non Serviam posted:No, you see, all those communist regimes where millions of people were executed were not really communists, man.
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Nov 11, 2016 11:55
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Mister Macys posted:Personally, I was picturing a poor Democrat family that voted in 2008/12 that stayed home (one of the six million) as my example. Plenty of room for interpretation, I suppose. it's cool she lied to people all the time otherwise that sure didn't hurt her chances
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Nov 11, 2016 11:56
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Condiv posted:agreed it'll be a lot of work, but we don't know what can happen in two years. we can only work as hard as we can for the future we want if we're going to survive this I will be really honest and say that we do know what will happen in two years: the dismantling of every good thing that has happened since Ronald Reagan left office. The real, big, important question hanging over us like a sword is, will voters be smart enough to connect the dots that the Republicans are the problem in this scenario.
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Nov 11, 2016 11:56
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Bad Decision Dino posted:So when communist regimes are lovely is because of the intrinsic failings of the ideology, but when capitalist countries murder the poo poo out of the middle east to get cheap oil that doesn't count? lovely regimes are going to be lovely, regardless of ideology. The wars in the middle east are incidental to capitalist countries, whereas marxism has in its very nature the subjugation of people. Not a single Marxist country has existed without massive repression and annihilation.
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Nov 11, 2016 11:57
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Lightning Knight posted:I will be really honest and say that we do know what will happen in two years: the dismantling of every good thing that has happened since Ronald Reagan left office. that's what's likely to happen yes. but it could also fail to happen. remember what people were saying this entire election: "trump can never be president". he proved people wrong in the primaries and he proved people wrong in the general. so don't fall into the trap of thinking the future's certain, because if anything this election has taught us that's not true
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Nov 11, 2016 11:59
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Lightning Knight posted:I will be really honest and say that we do know what will happen in two years: the dismantling of every good thing that has happened since Ronald Reagan left office. We better hope the lost Obama coalition voters figure it out because otherwise we're counting on trump voters being the ones to stay home. They won't cross over and vote dem, especially not just 2 years out.
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Nov 11, 2016 12:00
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Condiv posted:that's what's likely to happen yes. but it could also fail to happen. remember what people were saying this entire election: "trump can never be president". he proved people wrong in the primaries and he proved people wrong in the general. so don't fall into the trap of thinking the future's certain, because if anything this election has taught us that's not true I think that's the difference between us. You took the lesson from Trump that the future is uncertain. I took away that the worst outcome will always find a way to prevail, eventually.
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Nov 11, 2016 11:59
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Lightning Knight posted:I think posters in this thread are talking past each other re: shaming voters. I don't think anybody smart thinks that the Democratic Party should keep trying to shame voters. I think we're saying that we personally should consider people who are liberal but didn't bother showing up to be lovely people. I mean, a lot of white liberals sat this one out because they consider themselves "Progressive" and they perceived that the Democratic establishment had hosed over their faction and was keeping them out of power - was robbing them of their voice. They want a convincing agenda of economic populism and class consciousness and they didn't get it. So, they stayed home. The results are disastrous of course but from an individual's point of view the blame is so diluted by that point that it doesn't seem like they're doing anything wrong. A deeper focus on class from the Democratic party and an authentic Progressive and populist agenda will get these voters back. In the meantime abandoning racial issues would be electoral suicide for the Dems and everyone knows it. So, we'll do both. Doing the circular firing squad thing over depressed turnout isn't going to win the next election. Let's just focus on winning the next election, for racial minorities, for LGBT, for women, for the working class, and yes even for white men.
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Nov 11, 2016 11:59
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Non Serviam posted:The wars in the middle east are incidental to capitalist countries, whereas marxism has in its very nature the subjugation of people. DONT WORRY GUYS THIS IS JUST INCIDENTAL
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Nov 11, 2016 12:00
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Kilroy posted:lovely allies, in this election. If some of your allies are unreliable you can either find new allies or figure out how to convince your unreliable allies to be more reliable next time. "gently caress you unless you show up to the polls" isn't going to win a single extra vote. I mean again I think you are missing my point. All of that is well and good from the perspective of the Democratic Party. That's what they need to do to win elections. But if you personally walk up to me and are like yup, I stayed home because Hillary was a lying corrupt neoliberal (((globalist))) (seriously gently caress that word, stop using it leftists), you're an rear end in a top hat and you deserve to get punched in the face.
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Nov 11, 2016 12:02
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Lightning Knight posted:I think that's the difference between us. You took the lesson from Trump that the future is uncertain. I took away that the worst outcome will always find a way to prevail, eventually. that's not true either or we'd still be in feudalism living in pig slop. or we would already be extinct. don't give in to fatalism because of this surprising loss, that only helps trump
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Nov 11, 2016 12:04
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http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/11/14/glenn-beck-tries-out-decency Glenn Beck is now a blm supporter.
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Nov 11, 2016 12:05
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Lightning Knight posted:I mean again I think you are missing my point. All of that is well and good from the perspective of the Democratic Party. That's what they need to do to win elections. But if you personally walk up to me and are like yup, I stayed home because Hillary was a lying corrupt neoliberal (((globalist))) (seriously gently caress that word, stop using it leftists), you're an rear end in a top hat and you deserve to get punched in the face.
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Nov 11, 2016 12:05
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Bad Decision Dino posted:*bombs the middle east on and off for 30 year* The United States isn't the only capitalist nation in the world.
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Nov 11, 2016 12:05
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