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steinrokkan posted:Please not Stalin vs Hitler: The Fanfic Wars again Yeah this is never a good internet forums argument to get into and I'm sorry for having contributed. Bad Decision Dino posted:Finland, Sweden, Norway and Denmark, which are so socialist they are basically communism lite at this point? Ok I have to admit I have never ever heard a self declared Marxist say this.
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Nov 11, 2016 12:37
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Panzeh posted:You motherfuckers pushed this neoliberal shill on us, you paid for it. You loving retards decided to pick the woman who sniffs her own farts and presented her to us as the super politician who is perfect at getting elected when all she did was run up the score in the blue states. Cool strawman buddy, any other weird projecting you wanna do about my beliefs or who my preferred candidate was? Definitely a cool and progressive thing you're doing here, shouting down minority concerns by blaming me for who was on the ballot.
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Nov 11, 2016 12:38
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PKJC posted:Cool strawman buddy, any other weird projecting you wanna do about my beliefs or who my preferred candidate was? Definitely a cool and progressive thing you're doing here, shouting down minority concerns by blaming me for who was on the ballot. Pretty sure at this point a remarkably large number of posters think the actual DNC posts on Something Awful dot com.
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Nov 11, 2016 12:39
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Non Serviam posted:Any system based on depriving people of property has subjugation and oppression at its core. We're talking about a human right People wouldn't be deprived of property; the property would be collectively owned, and thus the people would still own the property.
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Nov 11, 2016 12:41
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ModernMajorGeneral posted:Ok I have to admit I have never ever heard a self declared Marxist say this. This is my personal belief, and everyone here is free to get super angry about it.
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Nov 11, 2016 12:42
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PKJC posted:gently caress off. A bunch of pissy so called progressives sold out minorities, again, because they didn't feel catered to hard enough. This is 4 years, minimum, of more children having to stay in the closet because every piece of poo poo who ever bullied a gay or trans person just got legitimized by a large part of the electorate, and those who actually went out and voted Clinton are the only ones not culpable in this. Right now, helping the fake progressives who sat on their asses Tuesday to rebuild their coalition is way down on the list of priorities compared to things like "find somewhere else to live" or "stockpile my hrt drugs as much as I can before I get kicked off my insurance/my insurance decides to stop covering anything related to transitioning" Those "progressives" don't owe the dems their vote. The democrats tried to force feed Hillary to the nation and it didn't work. They ran an establishment candidate during a change election. They interfered with the primary process and they paid for it. I say this as a Bernie supporter turned Hillary voter. The republicans, for all of their faults, tossed sixteen candidates into the pit to dogfight it out until one rose above the others. That was Trump. Despite every single one of his stupid faults he was able to beat down everyone else. The dems didn't do that. In a contest of ideas Hillary's were picked as correct rather than letting Bernie rise or fall on his own in a fair contest. If you want to be mad at someone, be mad at the democrats for picking favorites.
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Nov 11, 2016 12:43
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Bad Decision Dino posted:I personally feel that if Marx could compare current Sweden to the USSR on who was closer to his vision of society, Sweden would be closer. I kind of feel like Marx would despise the Nordic countries because "they're too nice and cushy in their capitalism, there is no will of the people to rise up." He'd probably be thrilled to see people flipping their poo poo over a Muslim family moving in down the street after being accepted as refugees and calling for white people to flip the table over there. Ice Phisherman posted:Those "progressives" don't owe the dems their vote. The democrats tried to force feed Hillary to the nation and it didn't work. They ran an establishment candidate during a change election. They interfered with the primary process and they paid for it. I say this as a Bernie supporter turned Hillary voter. The progressives don't owe Hillary their vote but they do owe it to minorities to stand up for them by voting against fascism. Progressives aren't progressive if we abandon the disadvantaged when we want to throw a tantrum.
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Nov 11, 2016 12:43
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Ice Phisherman posted:Those "progressives" don't owe the dems their vote. The democrats tried to force feed Hillary to the nation and it didn't work. They ran an establishment candidate during a change election. They interfered with the primary process and they paid for it. I say this as a Bernie supporter turned Hillary voter. Tell me more about how a bunch of trans kids deserve to suffer and die for the sins of DWS. Go on. Explain.
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Nov 11, 2016 12:47
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Lightning Knight posted:I kind of feel like Marx would despise the Nordic countries because "they're too nice and cushy in their capitalism, there is no will of the people to rise up." He'd probably be thrilled to see people flipping their poo poo over a Muslim family moving in down the street after being accepted as refugees and calling for white people to flip the table over there.
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Nov 11, 2016 12:48
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Also stop it with this dumb "the DNC rigged the primary narrative." We really, really need to learn the actual lesson from Bernie's primary defeat: name recognition and networking matter. Progressives won't get poo poo if we show up six months before the election and ask for the nomination with no previous ground work. Millions of people voted for Hillary because they didn't know Bernie and he didn't have the organization or time to fix that. We cannot let that happen again.quote:This is also entirely possible. I guess what I am trying to say is that I really hope there are ways to implement "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." with putting people into mass graves because otherwise we might be kind of hosed as a species. I uh, I have bad news for you bro. 
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Nov 11, 2016 12:47
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Ice Phisherman posted:Those "progressives" don't owe the dems their vote. The democrats tried to force feed Hillary to the nation and it didn't work. They ran an establishment candidate during a change election. They interfered with the primary process and they paid for it. I say this as a Bernie supporter turned Hillary voter. They don't owe anyone their vote, but they also don't get immunity from being called complete assholes for not caring enough to stop Literal Fascist Donald Trump from being president of a nuclear superpower. And they deserve to be laughed out of the room if they try to call themselves progressives after that, or allies to all the many and varied groups of marginalized people they just allowed to get hosed over.
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Nov 11, 2016 12:49
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kartikeya posted:They don't owe anyone their vote, but they also don't get immunity from being called complete assholes for not caring enough to stop Literal Fascist Donald Trump from being president of a nuclear superpower. And they deserve to be laughed out of the room if they try to call themselves progressives after that, or allies to all the many and varied groups of marginalized people they just allowed to get hosed over. The many groups of 'marginalized' people whose politicos decided that Hillary Clinton was the best possible candidate. What a bunch of loving idiots. You guys went all out to say that Bernie was sexist, racist, to make him look bad on minorities.. then Hillary comes up and does worse with minorities than Obama.
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Nov 11, 2016 12:49
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Lightning Knight posted:Also stop it with this dumb "the DNC rigged the primary narrative." We really, really need to learn the actual lesson from Bernie's primary defeat: name recognition and networking matter. Progressives won't get poo poo if we show up six months before the election and ask for the nomination with no previous ground work. Millions of people voted for Hillary because they didn't know Bernie and he didn't have the organization or time to fix that. We cannot let that happen again. Why did Debbie step down then as DNC chair?
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Nov 11, 2016 12:49
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Panzeh posted:The many groups of 'marginalized' people whose politicos decided that Hillary Clinton was the best possible candidate. What a bunch of loving idiots. Good luck with your white male progressive party bro. Mnoba posted:Why did Debbie step down then as DNC chair? Because she's an idiot. The DNC was not impartial during the primary. That isn't the same as rigging it. Also because of a combination of popular pressure and the fact that she was going to be out anyway. It was a win-win situation for her to peace. Her resigning doesn't mean that the DNC actually rigged the primary, however. Bernie lost because he was too much of an outsider. Nobody knew who he was and primaries are elections with ultra low turnout which favors conservative candidates. If progressives want to win primaries - and we do have to win primaries - we need to start campaigning for them now, like Hillary did in 2012.
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Nov 11, 2016 12:51
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Like I always said progressives make the worst allies at best. They don't know how to work in coalition. Once they don't get their way the leave and cry foul dann the consequences. I mean go ahead and blame everyone else and dream of your new new deal.
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Nov 11, 2016 12:53
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Greataval posted:Like I always said progressives make the worst allies at best. They don't know how to work in coalition. Once they don't get their way the leave and cry foul dann the consequences. I mean go ahead and blame everyone else and dream of your new new deal. I'm not the one blaming an electorate for losing the election.
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Nov 11, 2016 12:56
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Lightning Knight posted:Good luck with your white male progressive party bro. I'm not 100% on the superdelegate conditions of the Democrat primary, but if the DNC caused 1 superdelegate or 1 vote to sway it's rigging it. It's not something you can hand wave away.
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Nov 11, 2016 12:56
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Panzeh posted:I'm not the one blaming an electorate for losing the election. The electorate elected someone that an outdated system did not.
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Nov 11, 2016 12:57
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Lightning Knight posted:The progressives don't owe Hillary their vote but they do owe it to minorities to stand up for them by voting against fascism. i've already made it clear to you that this strategy doesn't work. it didn't work for hillary and it won't work for you. face up to the fact that hillary didn't do what she needed to to win. face up to the fact that shaming voters into voting for your side doesn't work, and give up on it as a political strategy
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Nov 11, 2016 12:57
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I know what will re-energize the Millenials for the Dems: blame the left
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Nov 11, 2016 12:58
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Mnoba posted:I'm not 100% on the superdelegate conditions of the Democrat primary, but if the DNC caused 1 superdelegate or 1 vote to sway it's rigging it. It's not something you can hand wave away. That's not what rigging means in this context. People literally accused the DNC of fixing races and votes, which is silly on its face. The DNC not being impartial is a problem but the Democratic Party as an institution should also be resistant to outside takeover because we don't want conservatives to run and push the party right. The problem with Bernie not actually being a Democrat until he ran is he had low support, no allies, and the DNC was forced to resist him as an outsider. If he had joined in 2012 and started trying to gain support he would've probably won. quote:i've already made it clear to you that this strategy doesn't work. it didn't work for hillary and it won't work for you. face up to the fact that hillary didn't do what she needed to to win. face up to the fact that shaming voters into voting for your side doesn't work, and give up on it as a political strategy Hillary's strategy didn't work. I don't give a gently caress about people's feelings though and I don't mind telling them they're assholes. The Democrats don't need to, but why shouldn't I? If you sat at home and you claim to give a single gently caress about minorities you're a lying prick. Lightning Knight fucked around with this message at 13:00 on Nov 11, 2016 |
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Nov 11, 2016 12:58
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Judakel posted:The electorate elected someone that an outdated system did not.
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Nov 11, 2016 13:00
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Panzeh posted:The many groups of 'marginalized' people whose politicos decided that Hillary Clinton was the best possible candidate. What a bunch of loving idiots. You guys went all out to say that Bernie was sexist, racist, to make him look bad on minorities.. then Hillary comes up and does worse with minorities than Obama. I voted for Bernie, you stupid piece of poo poo. You just put marginalized in scare quotes, like no they aren't really so, it's actually the loving Bernie Bros who have been wronged abloobloobloo. Don't act like you're offended on behalf of Bernie when you just dismissed millions of people being targeted by the GOP and Trump's administration in particular. You don't get to pretend to be his ally either. You are not his truest supporter, you are someone who never understood what the gently caress he was saying to you, ever, or anything about what he stood for. Get the gently caress out out of this tent until you actually understand what it's for.
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Nov 11, 2016 13:02
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Lightning Knight posted:Hillary's strategy didn't work. I don't give a gently caress about people's feelings though and I don't mind telling them they're assholes. The Democrats don't need to, but why shouldn't I? then you won't get your way
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Nov 11, 2016 13:02
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Condiv posted:then you won't get your way I mean I didn't, that's why Donald Trump is POTUS. I'm just a guy on the internet dude. I can say whatever I want to people, it won't magically make the fascist we've allowed to win disappear. The Democrats aren't going to shape their policy based on a college student from Wisconsin who might be slightly insane.
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Nov 11, 2016 13:04
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Non Serviam posted:I wasn't speaking about you regarding the meltdown. Marxism isn't and never has been against personal property. There is a different between personal property and private property. A Marxist gives no fucks if you own a bike, they care about who owns the bike factory.
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Nov 11, 2016 13:05
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Condiv posted:i've already made it clear to you that this strategy doesn't work. it didn't work for hillary and it won't work for you. face up to the fact that hillary didn't do what she needed to to win. face up to the fact that shaming voters into voting for your side doesn't work, and give up on it as a political strategy Shaming voters into not lazily accepting fascism what a goddamn crime, gently caress off. No one should even need to shame them into it because basic human decency would tell you that when a candidate shows up who wants to roll back human rights for any group of people that needs to be shut down, complaining about how hillary is "unlikable" doesn't absolve people of their passive acceptance of open bigotry.
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Nov 11, 2016 13:07
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Lightning Knight posted:I mean I didn't, that's why Donald Trump is POTUS.  the dem party has broken into pieces and you wanna go on about how your rhetoric has no effect anymoredems need people to evangelize for them right now and you're arguing that you shouldn't bother with that process because you're upset voters didn't turn out enough for a heavily flawed democratic message and a candidate who didn't really try.
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Nov 11, 2016 13:07
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jBrereton posted:Both candidates went in knowing the rules, and claiming that Trump couldn't have beaten her in the popular vote if that was the objective is about as unprovable and irrelevant as people saying that Sanders would have won. Are you implying that the Trump campaign was well-organized enough to have meticulously planned how to win the electoral college the way they did? Despite the fact that even the RNC was shocked he won? No, he couldn't have beaten her in the popular vote. A non-incumbent Republican presidential nominee has not won the popular vote in a while, for reasons evident to anyone who knows where people live in this country. The fact that both candidates went in knowing the rules is irrelevant to my claim that the electoral college is outdated.
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Nov 11, 2016 13:07
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kartikeya posted:I'm glad you're looking ahead, and I echo the sentiment of do what you have to do, but people who cannot be bothered to put in the bare minimum of effort when they're needed aren't allies. They might be allies in the future, and that would be great, but if they can't show up when all it would cost them is a bit of pride or empathy, they certainly can't be counted on to show up when it would actually be hard. kartikeya posted:And the ones that leaped immediately to blaming minorities and women and LGBTQ for the loss because their personal pet issues weren't addressed exclusively probably never were and never will be, because they see their concerns and that of people who aren't them as being mutually exclusive instead of complimentary. Finally, don't overestimate the malice of people who sat out the election too much. I think if every American had a set of glasses that allowed them to see 24 hours into the future the election actually would have resulted in a Democratic landslide. But that's not the reality. The reality is we thought we had this in the bag, polling - even apparently internal GOP polling - showed an assured Clinton victory. What happened is several million people leaving work or whatever decided to gently caress off and go home instead of waiting in a long line to vote for a candidate they weren't really inspired by anyway, had maybe done some shady stuff with emails or whatever, and anyway didn't really need their vote to win in the first place (I mean, there was a lot of "okay gently caress off then we don't need your vote" in USPOL for the longest drat time). That's a poo poo salad however you look at it, but instead of screaming ruefully into the darkness let's make sure the DNC doesn't gently caress up 2018 okay? They're really good at loving up elections as it turns out, particularly midterms. So sign this, for a start: https://go.berniesanders.com/page/s/keith-ellison-dnc
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Nov 11, 2016 13:07
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Non Serviam posted:Any system based on depriving people of property has subjugation and oppression at its core. We're talking about a human right ah, my dude, there's a lot to unpack here in this humdinger of a statement, but it's late so here's the short version: "it is an inalienable human right to Own A Thing" is a flawed thesis to begin with, but if we accept it as true, then the deprivation of property is also intrinsic in capitalist systems, arguably to much a greater degree. PKJC posted:Tell me more about how a bunch of trans kids deserve to suffer and die for the sins of DWS. Go on. Explain. hold up a minute here buckaroo. if you are going to use me and mine as a sword to defend hilldawg's honor, i feel that it is necessary to inform you of a few things. namely: i am aggrieved by both apathetic voters and the candidate who made them apathetic. these events did not happen in a vacuum, independent of one another. there has been an awful lot of splitting going on in this thread, a seemingly pathological inability to look at the holistic entirety of this circus. suffice it to say, while i would prefer a reality wherein the average democrat voter was aware of the consequences of a trump presidency for my healthcare and general life expectancy, that is not one in which we live. the political reality is that candidates must galvanize voters to show up and vote for them. i make no moral judgment on the rightness or wrongness of this phenomenon. that's just how representational democracy divided up among hundreds of millions of people functions. if you want to perhaps make overtures that such a system is flawed and requires amendment, then i would be more than receptive to that. i bear the ideological purists and the lazy no small amount of malice for their fecklessness, but so do i also regard hillary with contempt for being a legendarily ineffective campaigner. accept this and move on, lest you spend the next 4 years trying to assign blame rather than turn the situation around. full disclosure: i voted for hillary, because i have not yet fully shed my mortal limitations like survival instinct and self-interest.
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Nov 11, 2016 13:08
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PKJC posted:Shaming voters into not lazily accepting fascism what a goddamn crime, gently caress off. No one should even need to shame them into it because basic human decency would tell you that when a candidate shows up who wants to roll back human rights for any group of people that needs to be shut down, complaining about how hillary is "unlikable" doesn't absolve people of their passive acceptance of open bigotry. in a perfect world, yes voters would have voted against facism purely on principle. but we don't live in a perfect world and you don't seem to realize that for some reason. in the real world, you needed to lure just a few more voters over to clinton with an economic justice message, but your candidate was too obsessed with the fantasy world were she could have hardly any platform and people would vote for her just to save themselves from trump. start living in the real world if you want to actually help minorities
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Nov 11, 2016 13:11
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Judakel posted:Are you implying that the Trump campaign was well-organized enough to have meticulously planned how to win the electoral college the way they did?
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Nov 11, 2016 13:10
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PKJC posted:Shaming voters into not lazily accepting fascism what a goddamn crime, gently caress off. No one should even need to shame them into it because basic human decency would tell you that when a candidate shows up who wants to roll back human rights for any group of people that needs to be shut down, complaining about how hillary is "unlikable" doesn't absolve people of their passive acceptance of open bigotry. At the very least Trump has taught many lessons about what basic human decency actually is. People may be bothered by racism on some cognitive level, but clearly just being bothered by something (that is close to being an abstract concept for them?) isn't enough to get most people to act. If this is a fact about aggregate human behavior in general, it seems there needs to be a lot of rethinking, because telling them about bad things doesn't work to make them do good things.
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Nov 11, 2016 13:12
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Condiv posted:in a perfect world, yes voters would have voted against facism purely on principle. but we don't live in a perfect world and you don't seem to realize that for some reason. in the real world, you needed to lure just a few more voters over to clinton with an economic justice message, but your candidate was too obsessed with the fantasy world were she could have hardly any platform and people would vote for her just to save themselves from trump. start living in the real world if you want to actually help minorities She had a detailed economic justice platform, mostly stolen from Bernie. It just never got covered because Trump sucked the oxygen out of the debate with EMAILS and pussy-grabbing.
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Nov 11, 2016 13:12
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Lightning Knight posted:In time I may come around to the righteous anger phase. I don't think I'll have any meaningful drive for politics for a long time though. I'll tell you what - go ahead and take a break from politics. We'll be here when you get back, whenever that is. If you could though, do head to the polls in two years and vote Democratic, and try to grab a few friends and family members when you do, okay?
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Nov 11, 2016 13:13
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:She had a detailed economic justice platform, mostly stolen from Bernie. It just never got covered because Trump sucked the oxygen out of the debate with EMAILS and pussy-grabbing. Hillary also sucked the oxygen out of her own lungs by making all her messages about Trump and hiding her own plans on a website.
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Nov 11, 2016 13:13
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Rush Limbo posted:Marxism isn't and never has been against personal property. There is a different between personal property and private property. A Marxist gives no fucks if you own a bike, they care about who owns the bike factory. In order for this argument to work it would have to be the case that how the bike factory is owned and run has no bearing whatsoever on who owns bikes, how affordable they are, how good quality, etc, which is blatantly not the case There are known good ways of organising bike factories, they are known as "not Marxism"
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Nov 11, 2016 13:15
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:She had a detailed economic justice platform, mostly stolen from Bernie. It just never got covered because Trump sucked the oxygen out of the debate with EMAILS and pussy-grabbing. She had a detailed platform that was somewhat stolen from Bernie but if you think that actually is the same as campaigning on it, you drank the kool-aid because she made great pains never to expound on it in her public appearances. It's almost like she never wanted it or believed in it and wanted said platform to die because she wasn't interested in economic populism and wanted to win entirely based on trying to slam trump.
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Nov 11, 2016 13:15
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steinrokkan posted:At the very least Trump has taught many lessons about what basic human decency actually is. People may be bothered by racism on some cognitive level, but clearly just being bothered by something isn't enough to get most people to act. If this is a fact about aggregate human behavior in general, it seems there needs to be a lot of rethinking, because telling them about bad things doesn't work to make them do good things. A majority of people still voted against Trump. It is extremely important to remember Hillary won the popular vote. The lesson here is that there is a significant minority that doesnt' care about racism. But not a majority.
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Nov 11, 2016 13:15
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