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jBrereton posted:Yes, although it doesn't take very meticulous planning to talk about poverty in the rust belt while your opponent acts like it doesn't exist. Then you are simply wrong. As the latter part of your post hints at, the Trump campaign did the absolute minimum.
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Nov 11, 2016 13:15
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:She had a detailed economic justice platform, mostly stolen from Bernie. It just never got covered because Trump sucked the oxygen out of the debate with EMAILS and pussy-grabbing. yes, she had some small economic justice platform which she didn't push hard at all. this made voters who didn't trust her already on economic issues (thanks to her hiding her wall street speeches) not trust that her lifted platform was anything she was actually serious about.
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Nov 11, 2016 13:15
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:A majority of people still voted against Trump. It is extremely important to remember Hillary won the popular vote. Millions of people just didn't turn up. They were bothered enough by Trump to abstain, but not motivated enough to do anything other than that. Those are the people I'm talking about. They needed something more than being warned about Trump's rhetoric, like it or not, because objectively just knowing about Trump wasn't enough to burst their bubble. Maybe it's because they are stupid, maybe it's because they have been raised with a different value system, maybe they think differently, maybe they are sheltered and privileged, maybe it's all of the above, but it's undeniable it happened whatever the cause may be. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 13:20 on Nov 11, 2016 |
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Nov 11, 2016 13:15
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Judakel posted:Then you are simply wrong. As the latter part of your post hints at, the Trump campaign did the absolute minimum. He did the absolute minimum and she did absolutely nothing. The minimum wins in the rust belt.
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Nov 11, 2016 13:15
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Panzeh posted:He did the absolute minimum and she did absolutely nothing. The minimum wins in the rust belt. No one denied this. Do you even know the discussion you are participating in?
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Nov 11, 2016 13:16
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Dazzling Addar posted:accept this and move on, lest you spend the next 4 years trying to assign blame rather than turn the situation around. full disclosure: i voted for hillary, because i have not yet fully shed my mortal limitations like survival instinct and self-interest. 
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Nov 11, 2016 13:17
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A story on Politico about Team Clinton confirms that Mook called William Jefferson an old out of touch fart for wanting to campaign in the steel cities. Bill got so much static on this that he went on a solo tour when it was too late. Between Mook, Doyle, and DWS, Hillary sure has been screwed by staff decisions a lot.
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Nov 11, 2016 13:19
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Kilroy posted:Dude I left America for fourteen years because I couldn't stand being around Americans. For most of that time I figured I was gone for good. I am moving back this month. I definitely get where you're coming from. I convinced both of my parents to vote Hillary and that she was absolutely going to win. Neither of them is ever going to vote again.  Condiv posted:yes, she had some small economic justice platform which she didn't push hard at all. this made voters who didn't trust her already on economic issues (thanks to her hiding her wall street speeches) not trust that her lifted platform was anything she was actually serious about. This is both untrue and unfair. She did push it, there was no coverage of that. We can argue as to the reasons to this but people keep saying "she did nothing" and that isn't true. She did a lot of things nobody gave a poo poo about because Trump was a media circus. Edit: Like I think it's very telling that Hillary was at her most popular after the DNC and the first debate. When people bothered to listen they liked her.
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Nov 11, 2016 13:19
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:A majority of people still voted against Trump. It is extremely important to remember Hillary won the popular vote. i agree, this is a very good lesson. imo hillary's turn out shows that a very large group of dems will show up to fight the worst of the right even when you don't have a good campaign or platform. if we can adjust our message to target the voters we lost we might be able to come back
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Nov 11, 2016 13:19
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Judakel posted:Then you are simply wrong. As the latter part of your post hints at, the Trump campaign did the absolute minimum.
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Nov 11, 2016 13:20
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I won't disagree that there were many problems with the way the dems ran this but thinking it requires a 'perfect' world for people to 'vote against fascism out of principle' is one of the bleakest, most depressing things I've read in a very bleak and depressing situation.
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Nov 11, 2016 13:22
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Dazzling Addar posted:ah, my dude, there's a lot to unpack here in this humdinger of a statement, but it's late so here's the short version: "it is an inalienable human right to Own A Thing" is a flawed thesis to begin with, but if we accept it as true, then the deprivation of property is also intrinsic in capitalist systems, arguably to much a greater degree. I have people in my own life for whom Pence is a nightmare, I'm not co-opting the problems of any posters. Also cool how people who want to keep shouting down this issue and other people who bring up minority grievances the last two days assume that we somehow are uniquely uneducated in regards to electoral strategy, or why we lost, or what the weaknesses of hillary as a candidate were, or any of the other things that we already knew because we paid attention to the election too. but no we need to stop talking about any minority issues right now and only talk about 2018 and how awful Hillary's campaign was and how she's such a narcissist (haha yeah look at who actually got elected). Maybe if the people who think it's so important to harp on voter strategy and tell anyone concerned about the harassment and violence that's already started ramping up 70 days before inauguration how we really should listen more to the people who want us dead, they should go start their own loving thread that's just about strategy and how to win the midterms, and maybe if they want they can make another one to just dump on hillary. Go, do it, have fun, I already understand political expedience as well as how willing fake progressives are to sell out parts of the coalition that's supposedly so important to them.
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Nov 11, 2016 13:22
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ModernMajorGeneral posted:I won't disagree that there were many problems with the way the dems ran this but thinking it requires a 'perfect' world for people to 'vote against fascism out of principle' is one of the bleakest, most depressing things I've read in a very bleak and depressing situation. Yeah, it doesn't require a perfect world. It doesn't even require perfect people. It just requires people to care, and to realize how dangerous apathy and the stupid false equivalencies that got run nonstop this year are.
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Nov 11, 2016 13:23
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Lightning Knight posted:This is both untrue and unfair. She did push it, there was no coverage of that. We can argue as to the reasons to this but people keep saying "she did nothing" and that isn't true. She did a lot of things nobody gave a poo poo about because Trump was a media circus. it is not at all unfair. you know why hillary was at her most popular after the DNC and the first debate? cause that's when she was last talking about this poo poo. she clammed up after she figured she reined the bernie bro vote in enough, to the point where when stuff like a confusing stance on the minimum wage was released, people were digging back to april to try to confirm that yes she supported $15 minimum wage in some places instead of $12 everywhere. she did not campaign well at all after she thought the bernie threat was buried Condiv fucked around with this message at 13:29 on Nov 11, 2016 |
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Nov 11, 2016 13:23
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jaete posted:In order for this argument to work it would have to be the case that how the bike factory is owned and run has no bearing whatsoever on who owns bikes, how affordable they are, how good quality, etc, which is blatantly not the case
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Nov 11, 2016 13:26
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ModernMajorGeneral posted:I won't disagree that there were many problems with the way the dems ran this but thinking it requires a 'perfect' world for people to 'vote against fascism out of principle' is one of the bleakest, most depressing things I've read in a very bleak and depressing situation. If trump had run against a literal bag of dicks, would we still be shaming the people.
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Nov 11, 2016 13:26
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jBrereton posted:And it was enough, how can you not get that into your head? I never contested the notion that it was enough. I am contesting the notion she'd win the popular vote, you tool. They'd have to do far more than they did and we're talking about a campaign that tried their best and achieved the absolute minimum necessary. Get this through YOUR head: A Republican non-incumbent has not won the popular vote since 1988. TWENTY EIGHT YEARS AGO! Judakel fucked around with this message at 13:29 on Nov 11, 2016 |
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Nov 11, 2016 13:26
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Judakel posted:I never contested the notion that it was enough. I am contesting the notion she'd win the popular vote, you tool. They'd have to do far more than they did and we're talking about a campaign that tried their best and achieved the absolute minimum necessary. Get this through YOUR head: A Republican has not won the popular vote since 1988. TWENTY EIGHT YEARS AGO! Bush won the popular vote in his second election. He didn't win a popular majority but that's not the same thing. edit: no looking it up in 2004 Bush actually won a flat majority, 50.4%
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Nov 11, 2016 13:28
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ModernMajorGeneral posted:I won't disagree that there were many problems with the way the dems ran this but thinking it requires a 'perfect' world for people to 'vote against fascism out of principle' is one of the bleakest, most depressing things I've read in a very bleak and depressing situation. Banality of evil etc, etc. Ideals and principles are a nice thing to have on your side, but they need to be insured by something more robust. kartikeya posted:Yeah, it doesn't require a perfect world. It doesn't even require perfect people. It just requires people to care, and to realize how dangerous apathy and the stupid false equivalencies that got run nonstop this year are. The situation is: Millions of people do realize this and use it as a guideline for action. Millions of people do realize this and do nothing. Millions of people realize nothing and show no tendency towards an understanding. Maybe the latter groups can be turned around, but in the short term it's necessary to work around them, or to incentivise them out of apathy until they can be made to become more empathetic. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 13:33 on Nov 11, 2016 |
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Nov 11, 2016 13:29
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Bush won the popular vote in his second election. He didn't win a popular majority but that's not the same thing. I know, I am talking about non-incumbents only.
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Nov 11, 2016 13:30
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Guys I think we're truly hosed for the next 8 years wrt the presidency. We have no candidates for 2020. Booker and Warren would get destroyed unless Trump is disastrously bad and even then I'm not sure. We should probably focus on taking back the Senate and House and then obstruct as hard as humanly possible. But to do that the DNC needs to find a way to groom new political talent and fight back against gerrymandering. This loss has made me realize how hosed the DNC currently is. We are hosed
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Nov 11, 2016 13:32
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Scent of Worf posted:Guys I think we're truly hosed for the next 8 years wrt the presidency. We have no candidates for 2020. Booker and Warren would get destroyed unless Trump is disastrously bad and even then I'm not sure.    Welcome to the club of despair and apathy towards the world bro.
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Nov 11, 2016 13:33
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Non Serviam posted:I don't know what a Tankie is. The world's premier nuclear superpower just elected a fascist strongman as president. This is definitely, definitely a good time to be a revisionist retard about the Soviet Union and start regurgitating Nazi propaganda about communism. Honestly, I'm not really interested in hearing this kind of moralizing crybaby horseshit about "property rights" from people wearing sneakers made by eight-year-old girls but even if it weren't just insanely disingenuous to bitch about Stalin from the comfort of a Western first world paradise you had better hope and pray that some godless totalitarian communist dictatorship hellscape emerges in Europe before the next round of Trumps are elected because those seem to be the only states even remotely qualified to save a mewling liberal toad like you from the other guy.
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Nov 11, 2016 13:35
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Lightning Knight posted:
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Nov 11, 2016 13:34
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Judakel posted:I never contested the notion that it was enough. I am contesting the notion she'd win the popular vote, you tool. They'd have to do far more than they did and we're talking about a campaign that tried their best and achieved the absolute minimum necessary. Get this through YOUR head: A Republican non-incumbent has not won the popular vote since 1988. TWENTY EIGHT YEARS AGO! There's no way to know how it would have gone if the rules were completely different. The Republicans and Democrats alike have held completely different positions in the past to how they do now. Wasn't long ago the Democrats were the party of segregation and slavery, after all. I'm sure the Republicans could find it in themselves to hold more socially libertarian views on abortion and similar if it would win them the presidential election.
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Nov 11, 2016 13:34
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Bad Decision Dino posted:Maybe we can also get some caps made? I hear people like those now. Make America Suck Again spotlessd posted:The world's premier nuclear superpower just elected a fascist strongman as president. This is definitely, definitely a good time to be a revisionist retard about the Soviet Union and start regurgitating Nazi propaganda about communism. I take it back, Marxists can make me smile too.
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Nov 11, 2016 13:37
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Scent of Worf posted:Guys I think we're truly hosed for the next 8 years wrt the presidency. We have no candidates for 2020. Booker and Warren would get destroyed unless Trump is disastrously bad and even then I'm not sure. It all depends on how badly Trump shits the bed. Unfortunately, he's going to poo poo the bed HARD. Paul Ryan is going to do things like abolish Medicare and Medicaid, and Trump is going to make disastrous foreign policy blunders and probably start another war. Once people actually feel the cold reality of Trump's "leadership" a lot of them are going to wake up to what they really just voted for. In two years we have a chance to take the Senate back but it will be badly stacked against us just because more Democrats are standing for re-election. In 2020 though we either WILL take the presidency back OR Donald Trump will have not been that bad after all somehow OR we'll all be dead from nuclear fire. All we need is a half-decent candidate who doesn't have a lengthy history of scandal and establishment ties. Unforutnately, Bernie and Warren will be too old by then, realistically speaking.
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Nov 11, 2016 13:37
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Hillary was the nerd quietly explaining the intricacies of why she should be class president and trump promised everyone free soda during recess.
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Nov 11, 2016 13:40
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Mister Macys posted:Maybe instead of blaming the six million people that stayed home, the DLC should instead try asking them what it was about their chosen candidate's positions and/or history and/or reputation that made them stay home instead. Hearing leftists complain about the DLC in 2016 is like hearing rightists complain about ACORN It doesn't loving exist any more
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Nov 11, 2016 13:39
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jaete posted:In order for this argument to work it would have to be the case that how the bike factory is owned and run has no bearing whatsoever on who owns bikes, how affordable they are, how good quality, etc, which is blatantly not the case "Marxism" isn't the name of a business model for bicycle factories. Marxism is a critique of private ownership of the means of production, and market economic relations. We could discuss the various business models used by factories that've been owned by Marxist governments, but I don't think you know what any of them were, how they differed from each other, or what results they produced. the overwhelming majority of bikes ever produced come from state enterprises in the People's Republic of China. The most produced single model in the world is the Flying Pigeon, at 500 million units, it's renowned for being extremely rugged, practical, and cheap. This occurred under an economy that had no market mechanisms at the factory level, unlike the post 1950s USSR.
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Nov 11, 2016 13:41
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Wow, can't believe Washington governor Jay Inslee will be president in 2020.
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Nov 11, 2016 13:40
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Scent of Worf posted:Guys I think we're truly hosed for the next 8 years wrt the presidency. We have no candidates for 2020. Booker and Warren would get destroyed unless Trump is disastrously bad and even then I'm not sure. Win the House and Senate in 2018, start the Democratic primary for 2020 a few months after they take office. Get the most productive and promising of the lot to make a run for it. Run whoever wins in the general. This is not hard. It does not require decades of careful planning and strategy to find a successful and inspiring Presidential candidate - frankly that is a rather undemocratic idea to be honest. All it requires is finding the talent and convincing them to run. The DNC has four years to do this.
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Nov 11, 2016 13:42
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Reverand maynard posted:Hillary was the nerd quietly explaining the intricacies of why she should be class president and trump promised everyone free soda during recess. Alternatively: voters had the American flag in their hands. Hillary offered them some more yarn to keep patching it. Trump offered them a lighter and promised if they burned it they'd get a pony. They went for the pony. WhiskeyJuvenile posted:Hearing leftists complain about the DLC in 2016 is like hearing rightists complain about ACORN God drat this is the sickest burn.
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Nov 11, 2016 13:42
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Kilroy posted:We are not hosed. The greatest campaigner in a generation appeared basically from nowhere to become a Senator and then the sitting President in the space of four years. You might say "well that's lightning is a bottle" but it shows it's possible. it's certainly a tall order, but not impossible (again, look at trump)
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Nov 11, 2016 13:43
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jBrereton posted:When it has never actually mattered. There is a way to know and I just explained it. No, they haven't held completely different position over the past 28 years. Even 36 years.
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Nov 11, 2016 13:44
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Kilroy posted:Win the House and Senate in 2018, start the Democratic primary for 2020 a few months after they take office. And good luck getting Democrats to turn out in a mid-term when they couldn't be loving bothered showing up to keep loving Donald Trump from becoming president.
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Nov 11, 2016 13:47
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Bad Decision Dino posted:So what do we do with the growing amount of people who have been made unable to earn a living due to automation? There is only one end-state to capitalism when the working class is no longer needed. Automation will continue to increase the amount of people who, due to no fault of their own, are unable to contribute to society. Do we let them starve, or do we pay for their continued existence. In the end, any implementation of the later is, in fact, communism. My original point was that if you say "communism" and in fact mean "Sweden", then you're dumb and don't know what words mean. That point stands I think the ideal solution to the problem is actually pretty close to Sweden, can you just please not call it "literally Stalin" tia (Of course if you're actually advocating for literally Stalin then, well, I strongly disagree)
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Nov 11, 2016 13:48
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Inferior Third Season posted:lol. Take a look at the Senate seats that are up for election in 2018. Democrats will be lucky if they only lose two or three. Yeah... I mean 2006. Bush was an utter disaster of a president and that's what it took to get Dems to turn out in midterms but I don't know if that will work this time around. Dean leaned heavily on lovely Blue Dogs for that poo poo and the Republicans of 2016 are far more willing to torch huge swaths of the government to retain power than they were last time around. They learned from Obama.
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Nov 11, 2016 13:48
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spotlessd posted:The world's premier nuclear superpower just elected a fascist strongman as president. This is definitely, definitely a good time to be a revisionist retard about the Soviet Union and start regurgitating Nazi propaganda about communism. Cute.
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Nov 11, 2016 13:52
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MickeyFinn posted:Oh hey, a racist voted for a racist. Color me unsurprised. What's racist about it? The only good it'll do is giving some people their moral jollies. Refugees aren't going to help the economy. I don't care what race or color they are, we don't need to take on any refugees right now. Don't be too confident about the midterms either, memes are going to get young people to turn out. Trump already increased youth vote for Republicans over Romney or McCain (on the back of memes) and Generation Z, who will be coming into their votes by the midterms, is a much more conservative group than millenials. furiouskoala fucked around with this message at 14:00 on Nov 11, 2016 |
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Nov 11, 2016 13:56
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