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People need to stop thinking of either social justice or economic issues taking a back seat. This is a wide rear end car, they can all sit in the front.
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Nov 11, 2016 16:53
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Crowsbeak posted:Well we tried your way, and it failed repeatedly. SO I think we're going with a new way now. You can stick around if you want. Nebalebadingdong posted:I'm from TN, I know how you feel. Just never forget that, a hundred years ago, the midwest was the heart of the progressive movement. Some early anti-racism came out of rural communities from mutual struggle. It can be so again. Yes, that's what I'm hoping for. I'm not sure if the Missouri Democratic party is even worth working with, but I guess it's all we have. I'm definitely going to work to promote progressivism, even if I'm more pessimistic than the Bernie bros. Fun fact, apparently the Progressive Party of Missouri merged with the Green Party.
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Nov 11, 2016 16:54
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greatn posted:People need to stop thinking of either social justice or economic issues taking a back seat. This is a wide rear end car, they can all sit in the front. Bingo. The only thing I'm taking issue with is someone suggesting that you have to stop talking so much about racism when you campaign because gently caress that noise. I'm absolutely on board with hitting economic justice hard and always have been. Unlike what condiv seems to be implying I am not an n-word.
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Nov 11, 2016 16:56
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greatn posted:People need to stop thinking of either social justice or economic issues taking a back seat. This is a wide rear end car, they can all sit in the front. Wide rear end car that will get pulled over by rust belt cop-voters because it's full of colored people. 
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Nov 11, 2016 16:58
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I get the protests over the racism, bigotry, sexism, etc. But when the gently caress are people going to wake up to the reality of class? There's been a class war brewing for sometime now and we are seeing the fruits of that with Trump winning the election. Why is talk of class so taboo in this country?
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Nov 11, 2016 16:57
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greatn posted:People need to stop thinking of either social justice or economic issues taking a back seat. This is a wide rear end car, they can all sit in the front. We're gonna be hearing a lot of this type of discussion going forward as we decide how best to rebuild a party, I just hope that the minority issues second (but still around! plank!!) people are still willing to fight against suppression tooth and nail because that coupled with the economic anxiety and daily reality of a trump presidency leads to widespread minority apathy and despair in my worst fears.
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Nov 11, 2016 16:58
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PerniciousKnid posted:Wide rear end car that will get pulled over by rust belt cop-voters because it's full of colored people. (this is a joke, I am not being serious)
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Nov 11, 2016 16:59
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Hey, so here's a little known except from the white liberals favorite guy, MLK, in case you want to know how we lost and how this is all going to play out:quote:“If it may be said of the slavery era that the white man took the world and gave the Negro Jesus, then it may be said of the Reconstruction era that the southern aristocracy took the world and gave the poor white man Jim Crow. He gave him Jim Crow. And when his wrinkled stomach cried out for the food that his empty pockets could not provide, he ate Jim Crow, a psychological bird that told him that no matter how bad off he was, at least he was a white man, better than the black man. And he ate Jim Crow. And when his undernourished children cried out for the necessities that his low wages could not provide, he showed them the Jim Crow signs on the buses and in the stores, on the streets and in the public buildings. And his children, too, learned to feed upon Jim Crow, their last outpost of psychological oblivion.”
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Nov 11, 2016 16:58
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PerniciousKnid posted:Wide rear end car that will get pulled over by rust belt cop-voters because it's full of colored people. And yes, this is the other side of the coin. "Prosperity for all" has, historically, meant "prosperity for whites." We can make it not so, but doing this requires being diligent in our support of the downtrodden and disenfranchised of all sorts. We have to fix the holes in some boats, or else the rising tide won't lift them.
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Nov 11, 2016 17:00
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Confounding Factor posted:I get the protests over the racism, bigotry, sexism, etc. But when the gently caress are people going to wake up to the reality of class? There's been a class war brewing for sometime now and we are seeing the fruits of that with Trump winning the election. Why is talk of class so taboo in this country? Go deeper on what you describe as a taboo on class discussion.
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Nov 11, 2016 17:00
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Quorum posted:Bingo. I absolute think that fighting racism costs key votes and probably the election. But if Bernie was right about anything, it's that we need full-throated advocacy for what we believe and drat the consequences, otherwise we have no credibility.
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Nov 11, 2016 17:00
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Confounding Factor posted:I get the protests over the racism, bigotry, sexism, etc. But when the gently caress are people going to wake up to the reality of class? There's been a class war brewing for sometime now and we are seeing the fruits of that with Trump winning the election. Why is talk of class so taboo in this country?
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Nov 11, 2016 17:01
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What I've seen as a result of this election is that he core issue is that urban and rural voters are suffering from the same thing, the establishment using them for their own profit, yet they are understandably pissed at each other over race and class. Healing this rift is going t be tough without also legitimizing racism and bigotry, and I don't know how to do it, unfortunately.
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Nov 11, 2016 17:01
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greatn posted:People need to stop thinking of either social justice or economic issues taking a back seat. This is a wide rear end car, they can all sit in the front. Basically, this. They are, ultimately, the same thing.
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Nov 11, 2016 17:02
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I wrote a small letter to Trump through the transition 2017 thing. I hope he reads it, and I hope enough people write in to try and shape his thinking. it's wishful thinking at this point, but trying to do something is better than nothing. personally, I'm excited to have my boots on the ground in trying to change the Democratic Party to something different
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Nov 11, 2016 17:03
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Quorum posted:I'm sorry what You should be fighting racism and equality because it's the right loving thing to do, not to keep minority turn out up. If Democrats would do their loving job in Washington voter turn out would take care of itself, it's why Trump is in office in the first place.
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Nov 11, 2016 17:02
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Quorum posted:drat. I thought the mythical "guy angrily telling minorities their concerns are gonna have to take a backseat" was imaginary but no, here he is. Except doing that has led to the democrats having literally zero power to fix those issues of racism and inequality. Just because black people are just as dumb as white people doesn't mean working towards social progress should be abandoned in favor of feeling good about yourself at those who disagree. If not openly courting the African American vote can get the Democrats into power where they can then put those policies promoting equality into action, black people would still be better off. Silent action is better than screaming inaction and the dems need to take a serious look at how they have been messaging themselves into oblivion.
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Nov 11, 2016 17:02
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Yeah we don't have access to alternate dimension Earth where Bernie was nominated but he had three main strengths that Hillary lacked. -He was charismatic and got people engaged in a way she really did not outside her faithful. I've met a lot of people outside of the parties that thought he was a good dude. Pretty much everyone I have talked to in Northern Virginia (the area that saved Clinton's rear end in Virginia) that wasn't a true believer basically said she was untrustworthy and either voted against her or out of obligation against Trump. That's totally anecdotal but based on the results I bet that Hillary was much more unfavorable than the numbers might suggest. -He had an easily digestible message that resonated with lots of people. That's a lot more useful than "look at my website" or having to explain stuff so that it didn't contradict with ages old policies like NAFTA -He didn't have decades of scandals. While a lot of it wasn't her fault, Hillary was never able to gain control of her own narrative based on the blood in the water that surrounded her from before she even started running. The fact that they thought that didn't matter or she could beat it was incredibly foolish. He got in way too late in the primary and was up against a lot of institutional inertia (this is not the same thing as rigging) so who knows what would happen. However I think a candidate similar to Bernie would do pretty well since even Clinton almost beat Trump being the wounded candidate she was. The election showed that there's a good base of Democrats that will vote regardless just like the Republicans. It's about motivating the others and people that don't identify with either party to come out.
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Nov 11, 2016 17:04
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Bad Decision Dino posted:Maybe it's for the best, because Hillary was about to drunk drive us into a tree. Everyone got our of the car because Hillary wouldn't start the car without an hour of discussion about the fairest way to divide the cost of gas and develop a time share system to control the radio.
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Nov 11, 2016 17:04
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So now Ellison has Bernie, Warren and Schumer all supporting him for Chair.
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Nov 11, 2016 17:04
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Quorum posted:Bingo. then why are you even discussing with me. if you've renounced abuela and her neoliberalism i have no issue with you
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Nov 11, 2016 17:04
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Confounding Factor posted:I get the protests over the racism, bigotry, sexism, etc. But when the gently caress are people going to wake up to the reality of class? There's been a class war brewing for sometime now and we are seeing the fruits of that with Trump winning the election. Why is talk of class so taboo in this country? Because we've been manipulated into believing we're divided vertically, urban vs. rural, instead of horizontally, lower-class vs. bourgeois.
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Nov 11, 2016 17:06
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Confounding Factor posted:I get the protests over the racism, bigotry, sexism, etc. But when the gently caress are people going to wake up to the reality of class? There's been a class war brewing for sometime now and we are seeing the fruits of that with Trump winning the election. Why is talk of class so taboo in this country? It's obvious that one candidate appeals to whites and one to everyone else, but class is a lot harder to grasp because if you look at the division of votes by income the Trump and Clinton campaign seem to be basically the same. If you can't see at a glance that the poor voted one way and the rich voted another nobody will pay attention to it.
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Nov 11, 2016 17:05
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Right now, this immediate moment, the Democratic Party should mostly be focused on social issues because so many people are going to be hurt by this administration we aren't going to be able to sleep at night if we don't try to do anything about it. But come 2020 (I'm not counting 2018 cause lol we're turbofucked) we need to amp up the economic message while not abandoning the minority community that we've been working with for years.
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Nov 11, 2016 17:05
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negromancer posted:Hey, so here's a little known except from the white liberals favorite guy, MLK, in case you want to know how we lost and how this is all going to play out: I'm more of a fan of Malcom X. Hell, we just had someone strawman that class is a taboo discussion. quote:When you live in a poor neighborhood, you are living in an area where you have poor schools. When you have poor schools, you have poor teachers. When you have poor teachers, you get a poor education. When you get a poor education, you can only work in a poor-paying job. And that poor-paying job enables you to live again in a poor neighborhood. So, it's a very vicious cycle.
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Nov 11, 2016 17:06
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Bad Decision Dino posted:Because the right will scream 'Class warfare! Socialism!' and continue to piss their pants in an effort to murder every serious attempt of economic reform. After all, if you actually helped poor people, where would they find angry white people to vote for them? My view is what is worth fighting for is economic democracy and putting a serious crimp on exploitation. You address this and all civil rights flow from it. If you end wealth inequality, the ideology that supported it will die.
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Nov 11, 2016 17:07
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Pollyanna posted:Because we've been manipulated into believing we're divided vertically, urban vs. rural, instead of horizontally, lower-class vs. bourgeois. Racial divisions are still totally real and pretending its only based on class is folly. If anything Racial division is insanely complicated and multifacial in america, as it is in many places.
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Nov 11, 2016 17:07
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Mnoba posted:You should be fighting racism and equality because it's the right loving thing to do, not to keep minority turn out up. If Democrats would do their loving job in Washington voter turn out would take care of itself, it's why Trump is in office in the first place. Sorry, read my post again, I can see how if you skimmed it would sound like what you believe I said... quote:There is no evidence that anything you are alleging is the case. Even if you're a shithead who thinks fighting racism and nativism are secondary concerns, you have to keep hitting them hard to keep up minority turnout. The two issues are linked and can coexist, they must not be mutually distinct. I listed the moral imperative to fight racism and bigotry first. But acknowledged that there are shitheads out there who don't see that. And so I offered a calculating, personal-interest justification too, specifically for those shitheads. I absolutely advocate fighting bigotry as a good in itself, to be done even if it costs you votes. It's just the right thing to do. e: or, to put it another way... PerniciousKnid posted:I absolute think that fighting racism costs key votes and probably the election. But if Bernie was right about anything, it's that we need full-throated advocacy for what we believe and drat the consequences, otherwise we have no credibility.
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Nov 11, 2016 17:07
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Carlosologist posted:personally, I'm excited to have my boots on the ground in trying to change the Democratic Party to something different Same. My first meeting with the local party is on Monday and I'm hoping that if nothing else I can establish some contacts that will put me in touch with groups that can make a difference. A lot of this is going to start at a local level and Republicans knew that going into this election.
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Nov 11, 2016 17:07
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Pollyanna posted:Basically, this. They are, ultimately, the same thing. Radish posted:Yeah we don't have access to alternate dimension Earth where Bernie was nominated but he had three main strengths that Hillary lacked. I don't remember him being considered charismatic outside of white male liberal circles, wasn't that why he lost the primary? I liked him, but I'm a white male liberal.
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Nov 11, 2016 17:08
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PerniciousKnid posted:Wide rear end car that will get pulled over by rust belt cop-voters because it's full of colored people. Don't worry, Joe Biden has the whip.
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Nov 11, 2016 17:08
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Condiv posted:then why are you even discussing with me. if you've renounced abuela and her neoliberalism i have no issue with you I think it's because other people are also having trouble reconciling "fix rural and urban economic inequality" with "fight racism, bigotry, and white supremacy at all costs". It's been such a false division for so long. We can do both.
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Nov 11, 2016 17:08
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disjoe posted:Right now, this immediate moment, the Democratic Party should mostly be focused on social issues because so many people are going to be hurt by this administration we aren't going to be able to sleep at night if we don't try to do anything about it. nope, both up front. trump promised economic aid, push for it and raise hell if he's not doing it or screwing blue colllar workers over. we need to both defend racial and social justice, but economic justice too or we're ceding part of the discussion to trump
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Nov 11, 2016 17:08
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Condiv posted:nope, both up front. trump promised economic aid, push for it and raise hell if he's not doing it or screwing blue colllar workers over. we need to both defend racial and social justice, but economic justice too or we're ceding part of the discussion to trump Absolutely this. We can and must accomplish both.
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Nov 11, 2016 17:10
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PerniciousKnid posted:Poor whites know they're the same thing, that's why they've been fighting economic justice so hard. I have yet in all my canvassing to meet a visible minority who (1) saw / heard Bernie speak but subsequently (2) did not at least like him. To a person. He had an exposure issue.
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Nov 11, 2016 17:12
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Sharkopath posted:Racial divisions are still totally real and pretending its only based on class is folly. But these "racial divisions" are being used as a tool of the ruling class to cover over issues of class. The rural poor "white trash" have a lot in common with blacks. Like I said if you address the ideology that gives rise to these racial divisions by ending the underlying economic disparity, then issues of race will fall away. You don't change ideology within ideology without first seeing what supports it.
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Nov 11, 2016 17:11
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Confounding Factor posted:...Why is talk of class so taboo in this country? Because a large part of the Democratic base - particularly on this forum - went to university, moved to the city, got a job paying real money, and won't give those rural trailer dwellers the time of day.
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Nov 11, 2016 17:12
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Scent of Worf posted:So now Ellison has Bernie, Warren and Schumer all supporting him for Chair. A few more, including Robert Reich have called for the entire current DNC leadership to step down.
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Nov 11, 2016 17:13
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Scent of Worf posted:So now Ellison has Bernie, Warren and Schumer all supporting him for Chair. Ellison as DNC chair is an inspired and inspiring choice.
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Nov 11, 2016 17:12
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negromancer posted:Hey, so here's a little known except from the white liberals favorite guy, MLK, in case you want to know how we lost and how this is all going to play out: Pro post.
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Nov 11, 2016 17:14
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