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Crowsbeak posted:A lot of them want.better roads. Promise jobs from road building. obama did exactly that in 2009 with the stimulus, he dropped $48 billion specifically on infrastructure improvements. no republicans voted in favor of the bill and more than half of americans thought it was a bad plan juxtapose that with trump's stimulus which if it happens will be largely the same thing and see how popular it is on the right
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Nov 11, 2016 18:49
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Crowsbeak posted:Sorry reality has a non neoliberal bias. Racism is not dead just because we elected a black president you ignorant dipshit.
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Nov 11, 2016 18:49
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Bishounen Bonanza posted:Jesus. loving. Christ. Don't call people's kids retarded please.
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Nov 11, 2016 18:49
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Also please god bring back the neoliberal -> n-word word filter, it made discussion infinitely more readable the last time we had people just flinging that word around like a monkey flings poo poo.
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Nov 11, 2016 18:49
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Squashing Machine posted:It's not controversial, but I'd call it dismissive and classist at best. It implies that they're not rational actors. For all of our education and rhetoric, we failed incredibly hard at offering these people a better deal than our opponents did, even if that opposing deal is a pipe dream. I don't think it's the deal so much as how it was framed - Trump appealed to emotion while Clinton appealed to reason. I don't think it's terribly controversial to say that not all voters are rational actors either, as this and many other elections prove. To be fair I don't think this is a phenomenon exclusive to the poor.
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Nov 11, 2016 18:51
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Deified Data posted:My new favorite thing is Trumpists saying Clinton didn't win the popular vote since not voting was a tacit endorsement of Trump. there's probably also a lot of people who didn't vote because they live in SAFE STATES, which a) helped trump win liminal states where people were leery about him and b) means the popular vote doesn't really tell you as much as you think
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Nov 11, 2016 18:52
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Butch Cassidy posted:Very at-risk and you are massively lacking empathy. Cannon is located in one of the lowest income parts of the state. Senior skiing is free. They can show up with whatever gear they can cobble together , get fresh air, actual exercise during the cold months, and hang around with peer in the lodge between runs. The state wanted to institute $20 passes for them to increase yearly to a cap TBD. $20 is a lot more to a social security dependent senior than it is to a the seacoast politicians pushing for the bill. And that is $20 per day at a deathtrap and poorly maintained mountain so they go from skiing all they want to hoping they can afford some. The question I'd have to ask is why the state felt the need to start charging for it? Did the state really just want to gently caress over old people for absolutely no reason at all? I doubt it. Well, we know that the place was poorly maintained, so clearly the state was having trouble finding the money for it. Did those compassionate conservatives volunteer to find some other way to keep the place free - like, say, raising taxes? After all, New Hampshire is renowned in the Northeast for its notoriously low taxes. It very well might have been a problem of the Republicans' own making. The Republicans have made a pretty solid strategy out of blocking Democratic attempts to help their base, and then blaming minorities, immigrants, and distant political elites in the cities for the economic stagnation. Every time I see someone say they voted for Trump because Obama made their insurance too expensive, the first thing I do is check to see if they're in a state that rejected the Medicare expansion - the answer is usually "yes". How is the government supposed to help people who believe that the government is the problem, and actively push to reject government help even as they whine about how no one is trying to help them?
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Nov 11, 2016 18:52
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Deified Data posted:It's gonna be bad for the next couple months. Let him ease into the White House for a bit and the media will lose any incentive to make him look presidential - to the contrary, they'll have every motivation to tear him apart the next time he says something stupid and sensational. We know this is a when not if scenario. His base still won't give a gently caress. This is their repudiation to all those pointy headed liberals telling them how to live and what to do. Soon they'll be able to dump agricultural and industrial waste into rivers and strip mine all Native lands without having to worry about being PC.
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Nov 11, 2016 18:52
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What really boggles my mind is how much this election came down to entitlement. The changes in America's capitalist economy are no different than changes that have afflicted all kinds of nations, rich and poor. When the USSR collapsed entire cities became abandoned because economics couldn't support a bunch of industry in the middle of nowhere Russia that only were viable from a command economy standpoint. Deindustrialization and the abandonment of rural areas has also hit Japan hard. Honda employs only a fraction of the workers it did in its heydey during the 70s and 80s. I own a vintage Panasonic bike that was made in '85 and in Japan. Just 5 years later the entire business outsourced production to Taiwan. To some extent they've dealt with it better than the US because of lavish government make work projects like highways to nowhere that are repaved regularly but at the expense of a 3:1 debt to GDP ratio. My grandparents worked for a copper smelter in northwest China getting close to where tibet and mongolia are. That smelter and the nearby copper mine kept the city going and kept my family fed during famines when the rest of the non-industrial peasants had to take one for the team so my grandparents had enough to eat to keep the factories running. When the CCP shifted away from state socialism the mines closed and now the smelter runs with a skeleton crew for small, specialty jobs instead mass production. The city now looks like the American rust belt- opiate abuse and sex work are regular things people see on the streets. Hell, I went to visit grandpa a few years ago and there were "hair salons" where you could get more than just a haircut from attractive women just down the street from his pensioner apartment. Now if the angry masses weren't a bunch of "regular" joes but black people or asian immigrants thrown out of work do you think people would be nearly so sympathetic about their plight? There's a reason asian immigrants push things like engineering and medicine on their kids because that's honestly the only reliable way to make a living in a capitalist country. I just find it amusing that people who routinely tell others they aren't owed poo poo in life come back and ask that their country create jobs for them. CAPS LOCK BROKEN fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Nov 11, 2016 |
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Nov 11, 2016 18:53
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Squashing Machine posted:It's not controversial, but I'd call it dismissive and classist at best. It implies that they're not rational actors. You can go ahead and empathise with segments of the working class voting for Trump for their own economic beliefs but this is not the election to argue that reason motivates the electorate.
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Nov 11, 2016 18:53
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Paradoxish posted:You're conveniently ignoring the part of my post where I point out that Trump's voters, in general, aren't any worse off. Here, have more exit poll stuff: You're looking at exit polls. I'm talking about the 50% of people who didn't vote. As you note, those who are worse off tend vote Democratic. Shame the candidate told them America is great because America is good. 
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Nov 11, 2016 18:53
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Bishounen Bonanza posted:Jesus. loving. Christ. yeah it is. my toddler wants yogurt. she can't have yogurt. rural voters want jobs to come back. jobs aren't coming back Bishounen Bonanza posted:2. The Democrats, the party of free trade and nafta and tpp, never did anything more than pay lip service to the idea of trying to help, with the exception of Bernie. People looked at Clintons wall Street connections and knew she was pandering when she claimed she would help the working class. i can tell that this is your first election because the democrats have been pushing for more education and social services in rural areas for, like, twenty years. ignorance of history is no excuse Bishounen Bonanza posted:3. Once again, the best you can offer these people is " gently caress off and die". I think we have a chicken and the egg problem. Liberaks hate them because they won't listen to you on issues of civil rights, and they won't listen to what you have to say about anything because you offer nothing but contempt. democrats have offered better healthcare, better education, better infrastructure, which is often rejected by state legislatures - look at how many republican states turned down medicaid subsidies. ultimately you can't help people who would rather not be helped, especially not if they're holding out for a unicorn like "the old mill will reopen". donald trump promised to reopen the mill, and now that he doesn't need rural voters to get into office anymore they're going to be ignored just as hard by the republicans as before
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Nov 11, 2016 18:53
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Pollyanna posted:I'm glad to hear from you. I want to support the people supporting the rural voter, but I don't want to also give any legitimacy to racism and bigotry, I will not accept that. So far, the approach I've taken is to talk to people i normally don't talk with and explain what's really going on, but I still worry about this. What should I do? Don't know. Depends on you and your position. I kind of lucked out living in a politically mellow state My area has had an influx of mixed race and Indian families over the last 15 years. The local R rep. I mentioned regularly sees them and their children as they use the recreation center and programs she works on. They've done more than I could. There has been a wealthy and very openly lesbian couple in town since the eighties who have dumped so much open support into local concerns that homophobia is less acceptable around here than other parts. All I can do is raise my kids to care and leave people they disagree with alone. Local concerns are somewhat covered for me. Islamophobia is still fairly open up North but I at least have the Mosque in Manchester to point to and say has not been a problem in all its years. Some of its members work at the free clinic down there helping poor whites, to boot. If nothing else, it gets people to shut up.
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Nov 11, 2016 18:53
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Peven Stan posted:What really boggles my mind is how much this election came down to entitlement. The changes in America's capitalist economy are no different than changes that have afflicted all kinds of nations, rich and poor. When the USSR collapsed entire cities became abandoned because economics couldn't support a bunch of industry in the middle of nowhere Russia that only were viable from a command economy standpoint. The change in America's capitalist economy isn't marked by changing industry - that is a global phenomenon, you're right. The change in America's capitalist economy is the long-term erosion of labor protections, lack of reinvestment in infrastructure, and lack of clear, far-sighted policy and strategy to meet and counteract changing global conditions. The change in America's capitalist economy is seen in the GOP's 'starve the beast' mentality of the late 80's and 90's, their obsession with privatization which is seen as dogma still today despite the philosophy that underpins it (that government drives market inefficiency) being spectacularly disproven in 2008. Boon fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Nov 11, 2016 |
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Nov 11, 2016 18:55
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Peven Stan posted:What really boggles my mind is how much this election came down to entitlement. The changes in America's capitalist economy are no different than changes that have afflicted all kinds of nations, rich and poor. When the USSR collapsed entire cities became abandoned because economics couldn't support a bunch of industry in the middle of nowhere Russia that only were viable from a command economy standpoint. Based on the resurgence of "Can we talk about class warfare, this is really about class warfare" posting in this thread since supporting Trump is now no longer a publicly damnable position, you're probably going to catch a lot of flack for this largely good post.
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Nov 11, 2016 18:56
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Peven Stan posted:I just find it amusing that people who routinely tell others they aren't owed poo poo in life come back and ask that their country create jobs for them. new thread title please
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Nov 11, 2016 18:58
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Squashing Machine posted:It's not controversial, but I'd call it dismissive and classist at best. It implies that they're not rational actors. For all of our education and rhetoric, we failed incredibly hard at offering these people a better deal than our opponents did, even if that opposing deal is a pipe dream. The only thing that they listened to was "I'm gonna bring back tha jobs." With no details. Any time someone tried to explain policies that would help, they threw tantrums or didn't listen. "But tha rich guy with tha hair sed the jobs come back (while blaming all my problems on immigrants)? Oh I like him." He talked to them like the morons they are, and they ate it up. I know this. I watched some extended family eat this poo poo up and spout stupid goddamn slogans. My moronic brother in law for instance, relies on PPACA for my sister and niece to get care. Those are going away, while he claps and hoots like a loving chimp. He loathes Clinton. Why? "She had ARE HEROES killed in Benghazi." This is what the Trump supporter looks like. The proud ones at any rate. And I can even forgive them, because they're too stupid to know any better. Real evil is the rich sons of bitches who held their nose and voted for tax cuts, knowing full well what suffering he's promised.
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Nov 11, 2016 18:59
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Obama nailed it with his "guns and religion" comment back in 2008 but then spent 8 years once more cozying up to Wall St and doing precisely gently caress all for these people and their communities. Now everyone is trying to act surprised when these same run down communities don't fall for more Democratic bullshit a 4th (5th?) time. Who knew he was prophesying his own failure and that of yet another third way dogshit candidate that followed. Also "bu..bu..but the Democrats guaranteed access to cheap healthcare" hahahaha jesus christ, this forum.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:01
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Talmonis posted:Real evil is the rich sons of bitches who held their nose and voted for tax cuts, knowing full well what suffering he's promised. 
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Nov 11, 2016 19:01
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Deified Data posted:They had a vested interested in making Clinton appear to be just as controversial as Trump. Trump isn't running against anyone anymore. This election shows that waiting around for a good outcome to happen is the one way it won't. The media needs to be lambasted for their willingness to normalize Trump now, before they can get defensive about it and say it wasn't a problem before. Lessail fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Nov 11, 2016 |
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Nov 11, 2016 19:02
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ozmunkeh posted:Obama nailed it with his "guns and religion" comment back in 2008 but then spent 8 years once more cozying up to Wall St and doing precisely gently caress all for these people and their communities. Look at Talmonis's comment above you. Obamacare insures his niece and sister-in-law. That's not nothing. That's *a lot*
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Nov 11, 2016 19:04
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Deified Data posted:Is the statement "economically disadvantaged people often vote against their own interests" controversial? Yes! Jesus Christ lol the level of just baby town poo poo liberals need explained to them is making this election less surprising by the day. Conservatives loathe this accusation because for one thing, voting against your interest is just absurdly, obviously better than voting for your interests. Consider the level of poo poo that is being thrown at various defectors and Clinton critics right now. What's their story? People who stabbed Hillary Clinton in the back. What was it they did wrong? They failed to vote against their interest. One of these things is noble. It's the right thing to do. More importantly, its political. It expresses a political value. Not a want or desire, but a sense of right and wrong. The other option is cynical and selfish. It's voting by market logic. What's in it for me? It's devoid of any political content at all. It's voting for a handout. It's something "welfare queens" and Democrats do. What are the kinds of narratives that inspire people who's children are in Iraq or some other Middle Eastern shithole? Sacrifice. Duty. Being part of something bigger. Being part of a movement. Yes obviously it's all just fascism but they don't see it that way. The notion that smelly poors get tricked by Republicans into voting against their personal interests depoliticizes poor people. There is exactly. one. single. institution in which poor people are still included and counted equally and they're deprived from participating according to this story. It's a kind of elitism that intrudes upon their own self-image. It's a way of saying "you can't even afford to have an opinion". Reasoned debates on the merits of policy and other wonkish minutiae are strictly the province of college educated liberals. For everyone else, there's interests. Some rear end in a top hat was accusing white women of this shocking betrayal of self-interest in the meltdown thread and even I was getting pissed off.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:04
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ozmunkeh posted:Also "bu..bu..but the Democrats guaranteed access to cheap healthcare" hahahaha jesus christ, this forum. Promised and didn't deliver! Deductibles are so high that people still cant' afford to see a doctor, but now they have to pay for insurance they can't use. "Single payer is a dream vote for me.'" --Someone we're all surprised lost
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Nov 11, 2016 19:03
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Potato Salad posted:Based on the resurgence of "Can we talk about class warfare, this is really about class warfare" posting in this thread since supporting Trump is now no longer a publicly damnable position, you're probably going to catch a lot of flack for this largely good post. I have no problems with class warfare. I would love if we had full communism now and we could put people to work everywhere doing what needs to be done. There's more than enough work in fixing this country's infrastructure than can be feasibly done in even my lifetime. There's more teeth that needs fixing, health problems that are left untreated, and people broken by rapacious capitalism than we could ever help in our lifetimes. Hell, where I work with the public sector there's about a quarter century's worth of technical debt that needs to be refactored or completely rewritten. Boon posted:What? My grandparents were sold a line that if you worked hard and kept out of trouble you'd get 3 squares a day, a place to raise a family, education for your kids so they don't have to inhale toxic smelter gasses, and other things. When the dreaded n-word shock troops came to PRC similar things happened: labor stopped getting paid and started getting laid off, infrastructure was privatized or left to rot, etc. The issues we're talking about are global issues related to capitalism. Expecting capitalism to solve these things would be like expecting the scorpion to not sting the frog on the way across the river. The best my family could do at a micro level was adapt and hope for the best.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:04
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Main Paineframe posted:The question I'd have to ask is why the state felt the need to start charging for it? Did the state really just want to gently caress over old people for absolutely no reason at all? I doubt it. Well, we know that the place was poorly maintained, so clearly the state was having trouble finding the money for it. Did those compassionate conservatives volunteer to find some other way to keep the place free - like, say, raising taxes? After all, New Hampshire is renowned in the Northeast for its notoriously low taxes. It very well might have been a problem of the Republicans' own making. Cannon runs at a defecit. It was a failed mountain, with another failed mountain given to the state and merged into it, that is run as a state park with intentionally low prices to allow area residents a chance to afford skiing. It also employs a fair number of people with state benefits. The whole thing is a welfare program and I'm cool with it. The push to charge seniors was an ill-conceived way to lose less money. Cannon's maintenance isn't un-safe, it's just intentionally minimal and adequate. And the mountain's deficit matters less than publicity from an Olympic skiier cutting his teeth there as a child, area business revenue from tourists hitting the slopes, tourists who can't afford skiing at some other mountains given incentive to make the drive into the state, and mountain employees having jobs to keep some money local. And our low taxes are a bit misleading with our socialized liquor sales run very seriously to undercut area costs and bring in out of state money. Many towns also have high property taxes. Even state Democrats don't push for higher taxes but rather courting small businesses to increase employment and revenue. Our business taxes aren't as low as many seem to think and are fairly comparable to Mass.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:05
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Lessail posted:This election shows that waiting around for a hood outcome to happen is the one way it won't. The media needs yo be lambasted for their willingness to normalize Trump now, before they can get defensive about it and say it wasn't a problem before. Someone, back in /september/ said that the difference of treatment was because everyone figured Clinton was going to win, so they treated her like she had already won. Whoops, looks like two different standards produces the result no one wanted! 
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Nov 11, 2016 19:06
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Lessail posted:This election shows that waiting around for a hood outcome to happen is the one way it won't. The media needs yo be lambasted for their willingness to normalize Trump now, before they can get defensive about it and say it wasn't a problem before.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:05
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ozmunkeh posted:Obama nailed it with his "guns and religion" comment back in 2008 but then spent 8 years once more cozying up to Wall St and doing precisely gently caress all for these people and their communities. Now everyone is trying to act surprised when these same run down communities don't fall for more Democratic bullshit a 4th (5th?) time. Who knew he was prophesying his own failure and that of yet another third way dogshit candidate that followed. do you have any realistic proposals for what obama should have done? keep in mind that states largely control economic and education policy
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Nov 11, 2016 19:06
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Peven Stan posted:My grandparents were sold a line that if you worked hard and kept out of trouble you'd get 3 squares a day, a place to raise a family, education for your kids so they don't have to inhale toxic smelter gasses, and other things. When the dreaded n-word shock troops came to PRC similar things happened: labor stopped getting paid and started getting laid off, infrastructure was privatized or left to rot, etc. The issues we're talking about are global issues related to capitalism. Expecting capitalism to solve these things would be like expecting the scorpion to not sting the frog on the way across the river. The best my family could do at a micro level was adapt and hope for the best. I'm in full agreement with Keynes that capitalism requires active governance. It's so odd to find some people in here constantly proclaiming a social economy as the savior despite the repeated examples of social economies stagnating and unable to maintain sustained growth. Vietnam is probably one of the best examples of this in the world today. Boon fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Nov 11, 2016 |
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Nov 11, 2016 19:08
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DeathofNeoliberalism.txt
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Nov 11, 2016 19:11
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Scent of Worf posted:DeathofNeoliberalism.txt lol if you think the dominant economic policy of the US, China, Russia, the UK, Germany, France, etc is going to die any time soon. We've got shitloads more to squeeze out of the consumers and Trump's gonna help do it.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:11
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ozmunkeh posted:Obama nailed it with his "guns and religion" comment back in 2008 but then spent 8 years once more cozying up to Wall St and doing precisely gently caress all for these people and their communities. Now everyone is trying to act surprised when these same run down communities don't fall for more Democratic bullshit a 4th (5th?) time. Who knew he was prophesying his own failure and that of yet another third way dogshit candidate that followed. Name for me specific programs you would have liked to see happen for "these people and their communities." I am calling for you to be specific. In the interest of openness, I intend to follow up with examples where Republican obstructionism blocked programs specifically targeted to improve infrastructure, access to education, social safety nets, etc. It really depends on what you want to bring up.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:13
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BarbarianElephant posted:Look at Talmonis's comment above you. Obamacare insures his niece and sister-in-law. That's not nothing. That's *a lot* I don't doubt the ACA has had many positive outcomes but on the whole it's a bad piece of legislation.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:13
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Bad Decision Dino posted:Agreed, but the DNC must also be held accountable for their election of a dogshit centrist candidate like Hillary. We MUST do both. There are a lot of problems to be fixed at the same time and it'll be near a drat miracle if we come out of this back on the road of progress
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Nov 11, 2016 19:14
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ozmunkeh posted:I don't doubt the ACA has had many positive outcomes but on the whole it's a bad piece of legislation. You again, like many in this election cycle, lack detail.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:15
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ozmunkeh posted:I don't doubt the ACA has had many positive outcomes but on the whole it's a bad piece of legislation.  Guess why that is. I bet you can't.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:16
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When you first started to think the ACA was a "bad piece of legislation" so many weeks or months or years ago, which facets of the program did you criticize? Can you still recall specifically its problems, or do you need to open a new tab, google "problems with the ACA," and do a quick summary dump here to make it sound like you know what you are talking about?
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Nov 11, 2016 19:18
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Who What Now posted:Racism is not dead just because we elected a black president you ignorant dipshit. Yet they vote for a black man who listened to them. Maybe it's not as simple as your small mind thinks.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:17
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Or are you simply parroting what has slowly been established around you as a fact?
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Nov 11, 2016 19:19
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spotlessd posted:Yes! Jesus Christ lol the level of just baby town poo poo liberals need explained to them is making this election less surprising by the day. Maybe I need this explained to me in a more baby town way because it reads like a fwd:fwd:fwd:fwd:fwd and it makes my head hurt. Lessail posted:This election shows that waiting around for a good outcome to happen is the one way it won't. The media needs to be lambasted for their willingness to normalize Trump now, before they can get defensive about it and say it wasn't a problem before. I agree that they need to be roasted until they realize "maybe Trump's not a good fit for the office of POTUS" isn't as controversial a statement as they currently seem to think it is. Deified Data fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Nov 11, 2016 |
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Nov 11, 2016 19:20
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