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Lessail posted:There are a lot of problems to be fixed at the same time and it'll be near a drat miracle if we come out of this back on the road of progress
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Nov 11, 2016 19:20
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I kinda wonder what Obama's favorables will be like in a couple years. Either he's going to be the most popular political figure by historic margins or he's going to be seen as a toxic monster who destroyed the country that Trump is desperately trying to fix. Meanwhile the MSM will report that the truth is in the middle. Well, the media outlets that haven't been forcibly shuttered by then anyways.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:21
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Deified Data posted:Maybe I need this explained to me in a more baby town way because it reads like a fwd:fwd:fwd:fwd:fwd and it makes my head hurt. Well that's fine but it just obviously puts you in the position of having to acknowledge that you're the idiot in this scenario, not them.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:22
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Crowsbeak posted:Yet they vote for a black man who listened to them. Maybe it's not as simple as your small mind thinks. What point are you attempting to make? The KKK is holding a victory rally in North Carolina tonight. You have seen the cover of The Crusader last month, I'm sure. Trump has failed routinely to criticize David Duke, only offering a "I don't know the guy" early this year once, and he has yet to sharply criticize the KKK. DOes anyone in here actually deny the comments on mexicans, rapists, and drugs? The comments on roving gangs of immigrants? The use of Pat Smith as a dual Benghazi / anti-Muslim figurehead? Are any of you preconditioned to overlook these things? Crowsbeak, yes, plenty of white dues voted for Obama. Plenty also voted for Trump. There are also some white guys who spurt overtly racist nonsense on a weekly basis. For six months this year, one of those guys was Donald J loving Trump.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:22
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spotlessd posted:Well that's fine but it just obviously puts you in the position of having to acknowledge that you're the idiot in this scenario, not them. I acknowledge your obvious disconnect from reality and will back away slowly now. Thanks for your time.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:23
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https://twitter.com/jonathanweisman/status/797120114042793984 Oh look another elite white liberal attacking leftist democrats This time because Bernie's pick for DNC chair is black and muslim lol
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Nov 11, 2016 19:24
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Evil Fluffy posted:I kinda wonder what Obama's favorables will be like in a couple years. Either he's going to be the most popular political figure by historic margins or he's going to be seen as a toxic monster who destroyed the country that Trump is desperately trying to fix. https://twitter.com/GallupNews/status/797138050463760385
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Nov 11, 2016 19:23
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ozmunkeh posted:Obama nailed it with his "guns and religion" comment back in 2008 but then spent 8 years once more cozying up to Wall St and doing precisely gently caress all for these people and their communities. Now everyone is trying to act surprised when these same run down communities don't fall for more Democratic bullshit a 4th (5th?) time. Who knew he was prophesying his own failure and that of yet another third way dogshit candidate that followed. Obama tried to do things for those communities, and only had several months where anything, even watered-down, could pass Congress due to unprecedented obstructionism by the Republicans, and then in 2010 Republicans rode in and took the house and control of most of those states. They then proceeded to absolutely gently caress any chances of rebuilding those states had (see: Minnesota vs Wisconsin), while blaming Obama for the damage they were causing. For 6 years we had a house of congress not pass a drat thing and actively push for hugely damaging policies. Now those states that are run by Republicans are the ones that are suffering, but they blame NAFTA, blame Obama, rather than correctly connect the dots and realize that their current state is a result of the 2010 elections. Add in states not taking the medicaid expansion and SCOTUS gutting parts of Obamacare after Democrats lost the house, there's gently caress all that could be done from a legislative standpoint. The list of bills that came out of the house in 2009 and 2010 that then died in the Senate because not a single Republican would vote for them is huge. Things like nuclear power, more infrastructure spending, etc. Eventually blaming Obama will not work, because these state have a fully Republican government and the federal government is also completely Republican. And nothing Republicans will do will bring good jobs back, not without major, massive consequences.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:23
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Crowsbeak posted:Yet they vote for a black man who listened to them. Maybe it's not as simple as your small mind thinks. As you with smug guile suggest something is more complex at play here, what is that thing you are suggesting? Why do you not offer more detail?
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Nov 11, 2016 19:24
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Deified Data posted:I acknowledge your obvious disconnect from reality and will back away slowly now. Thanks for your time. The reality is that you and everyone that thinks like you deserve to lose elections because you fundamentally don't understand what they are.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:24
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Scent of Worf posted:https://twitter.com/jonathanweisman/status/797120114042793984 EDIT: it is funny because Weisman is German for White Man. Bad Decision Dino fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Nov 11, 2016 |
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Nov 11, 2016 19:24
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Potato Salad posted:You again, like many in this election cycle, lack detail. -Narrow networks -High deductibles because Dr. J Gruber's entire academic career has been pushing "skin in the game" style insurance and high deductible plans as a way to bend the cost curve -Complexity of implementation: I changed jobs this year and relied on the ACA for a 2 month gap between employer plans. It took me about a day or two of researching plans, deductibles, formularies, networks, and the statement of benefits for each choice to catch the fine print. The silver version of the plan i went with did not waive the deductible for generic meds (aka pay $300 for the generic med I take upfront until the deductible was met, then a $15 copay) while the gold version did (liability capped at $15 a pop copay regardless of deductible). Ultimately after crunching the numbers the gold version had the lowest cost per month factoring in the prescription copays vs. deductibles nonsense and premium difference. Can you imagine your average working class person trying to figure this poo poo out? I felt really bad at the doctor's office when a young woman on the BCBS Anthem Pathway X product (poo poo network) had to be turned away from seeing an ob/gyn because it was out of network. This is not a reasonable amount of work for someone to do for what amounts to social insurance delivered via private financing mechanisms. Middle class policy mavens really should hire more sociologists with experience working with the poor/people with less than a BA. They design policy and programs for people just like themselves and not people who actually need them.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:25
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Scent of Worf posted:https://twitter.com/jonathanweisman/status/797120114042793984 Considering that the only other people currently interested in the DNC chair are Howard Dean and Martin O'Malley, I don't know what other "Rust Belt populist" he could even be referring to.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:26
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Pervis posted:Obama tried to do things for those communities, and only had several months where anything, even watered-down, could pass Congress due to unprecedented obstructionism by the Republicans, and then in 2010 Republicans rode in and took the house and control of most of those states. They then proceeded to absolutely gently caress any chances of rebuilding those states had (see: Minnesota vs Wisconsin), while blaming Obama for the damage they were causing. For 6 years we had a house of congress not pass a drat thing and actively push for hugely damaging policies. Now those states that are run by Republicans are the ones that are suffering, but they blame NAFTA, blame Obama, rather than correctly connect the dots and realize that their current state is a result of the 2010 elections. Add in states not taking the medicaid expansion and SCOTUS gutting parts of Obamacare after Democrats lost the house, there's gently caress all that could be done from a legislative standpoint. We will not get a meaningful response from ozmunkeh. He came in, posted the truth as he knows it, and is content with that. I mean, we may not get a response. I have eight years of congress back-and-forth action to dump on this moron if he actually believes Obama was not stopped at every turn to work with the RNC to improve the lives of all Americans, particularly the poor and disadvantaged.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:26
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boner confessor posted:this is worth repeating - it's not like the democrats ignored rural poverty. there's not a whole lot the federal government can do if republican-dominated state legislatures aren't willing to play ball, or a republican congress keeps stonewalling meaningful reform, etc. There's an awful lot that a president can do, legally and illegally. There's an awful lot a congress can do once recalcitrant elements of it are neutralized. For a long time there was a balance that only needed a few people's reputations and careers destroyed, legitimately or not, to make the system start working again. Please don't give the Democrats a pass for not living up to their promises solely because they weren't willing to do what it took. Sure, it would have been ugly. But it's ugly now, too, isn't it?
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Nov 11, 2016 19:26
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DaveWoo posted:Considering that the only other people currently interested in the DNC chair are Howard Dean and Martin O'Malley, I don't know what other "Rust Belt populist" he could even be referring to. Paul Bunyan (D-WI) John_A_Tallon posted:There's an awful lot that a president can do, legally and illegally. There's an awful lot a congress can do once recalcitrant elements of it are neutralized. For a long time there was a balance that only needed a few people's reputations and careers destroyed, legitimately or not, to make the system start working again. Please don't give the Democrats a pass for not living up to their promises solely because they weren't willing to do what it took. are you kidding? hillary murdered dozens and that didn't break the logjam. should she have taken a flamethrower to the house floor?
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Nov 11, 2016 19:28
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Deified Data posted:Maybe I need this explained to me in a more baby town way because it reads like a fwd:fwd:fwd:fwd:fwd and it makes my head hurt. they're just saying that feels > reals for presidential elections. I disagree mostly because while Trump won he barely loving won. That doesn't mean his strategy didn't work, but it's not like he brought out 7 or 12 million extra votes. This election is special mostly because we're in a pretty good place to burn the rich and be back home in time to do heroin and stare at the ceiling. Trump won because that's basically what he said, but included that it'd become a whiter America along the way. Back to the way it was in the 50's and 60's when everyone was happy and there was absolutely no political unrest.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:27
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Well if Trumps previous actions are any indications his daughter will 100% run for President ( His sons are kind of idiots).. which means the first female president will be Ivanka Trump.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:29
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Admiral Ray posted:they're just saying that feels > reals for presidential elections. I disagree mostly because while Trump won he barely loving won. That doesn't mean his strategy didn't work, but it's not like he brought out 7 or 12 million extra votes. i dunno, there's a solid argument that white leftists threw racial and sexual minorities under the bus in the interest of the Revolution
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Nov 11, 2016 19:29
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Who What Now posted:Racism is not dead just because we elected a black president you ignorant dipshit. quit over reacting no one ever said it was, maybe just recognize that poor whites need help. Because they're poor, remember? Use those super enlightened liberal powers and realize that having poo poo wages, no retirement and bad health care affect everyone with no money regardless of skin color. But I guess you could just call them racist again.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:30
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Scent of Worf posted:DeathofNeoliberalism.txt That said, it really feels like there's space for new parties, maybe not in the couple elections but in a decade or two and as unlikely as that will always be, it is probably most likely around now There is too much stigma that comes with the party names and you end up with many people who can never see themselves ever voting for the other side. If in the 2016 election Kshama Sawant ascended in a populist uprising into a bid for president (I think she was born in India but pretend for the sake of making my point), and with her platform calling for redefining the standard of basic needs that we as a society would meet for every beating heart in this country, and nationalizing any corporate interests getting in the way of that vision.... AND she ran on the republican ticket, then I would have strongly hesitated voting for her.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:31
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Hollismason posted:Well if Trumps previous actions are any indications his daughter will 100% run for President ( His sons are kind of idiots).. which means the first female president will be Ivanka Trump.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:30
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Tiberius Christ posted:quit over reacting no one ever said it was, maybe just recognize that poor whites need help. Because they're poor, remember? Use those super enlightened liberal powers and realize that having poo poo wages, no retirement and bad health care affect everyone with no money regardless of skin color. But I guess you could just call them racist again. being super whiny does not constitute an argument as to why democrats are to blame for republican statehouse austerity policies and congressional obstructionism
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Nov 11, 2016 19:32
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I think the leftists voted. The people who didn't vote were the disaffected "both sides are bad" types.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:33
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DaveWoo posted:Considering that the only other people currently interested in the DNC chair are Howard Dean and Martin O'Malley, I don't know what other "Rust Belt populist" he could even be referring to. Wait, seriously? I don't think Ellison is terrible choice but right now more than ever we need a solid 50-state strategy.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:32
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Bad Decision Dino posted:So who wants in on my suicide pact? Ivanka Trump is not abhorable. She's very intelligent, media savvy, and leans left on most social issues.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:34
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Tiberius Christ posted:quit over reacting no one ever said it was, maybe just recognize that poor whites need help. How can they be helped if they're not in the tank for full communism? I've pointed out a slew of industrial countries where the jobs never came back to rural areas because of capitalism. Capitalism did this to them and it's not like a government whose business is big business is going to help them out.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:34
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Tiberius Christ posted:quit over reacting no one ever said it was, maybe just recognize that poor whites need help. Because they're poor, remember? Use those super enlightened liberal powers and realize that having poo poo wages, no retirement and bad health care affect everyone with no money regardless of skin color. But I guess you could just call them racist again. The fallacy that democratic party policies completely ignore poor white people.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:32
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Peven Stan posted:-Narrow networks The administrative complexity bit is something I have encountered more than a few times knocking on doors.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:34
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I legitimately could see Ivanka Trump in the White House in 8/16 years.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:34
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Admiral Ray posted:they're just saying that feels > reals for presidential elections. I disagree mostly because while Trump won he barely loving won. That doesn't mean his strategy didn't work, but it's not like he brought out 7 or 12 million extra votes. Right, I don't think what he originally quoted contradicted that, so I'm not sure what he disagreed with. Something about the inherent nobility of voting against your interests? I asked and he won't tell me so the dialogue is done I guess.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:33
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Sure Obama tried to help, but the wider Democratic Party was poo poo. Which is why the ACA turned out the way it did and why Dems lost seats across the country.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:34
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Hollismason posted:Ivanka Trump is not abhorable. She's very intelligent, media savvy, and leans left on most social issues. Yeah, no. If you assume she wrote the plan to help families out, it's utter poo poo. "OH, YOU GET A TAX BREAK!" "Yeah, one that doesn't apply to the end of the year for one, and two, what if I don't make enough to pay taxes?", and that's not getting into the family leave being effectively "unemployment" and an out for an employer to fire you with cause.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:34
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Tiberius Christ posted:quit over reacting no one ever said it was, maybe just recognize that poor whites need help. Because they're poor, remember? Use those super enlightened liberal powers and realize that having poo poo wages, no retirement and bad health care affect everyone with no money regardless of skin color. But I guess you could just call them racist again. Yes but then those same people say gently caress unions, gently caress an increase in the minimum wage and worker protection, gently caress single payer, and gently caress you. We don't need your help Outside Government we'll die in misery on our own and make sure you do too. Don't touch my social security. Besides, middle class whites voted for Trump too. So did rich whites. So what's their deal?
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Nov 11, 2016 19:35
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Bhaal posted:I don't buy it, 2008 was a pretty unique set of circumstances that drove huge turnout. Some of that was still there in 2012 but it had died down and now that momentum has faded into the background. Oh, we're definitely headed for a new party system. That was in the cards since well before this election. And you have only to read this thread to see some of the groups likely to split in the new world order.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:36
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Jesus Christ, Peter Thiel is joining (possibly leading) Trump's transition team. This poo poo just gets worse every day. I'd be happy about the upcoming pogroms against the media if it wasn't for the fact the end result would be Breitbart, Infowars, and the rest of the far right media replacing them and poisoning American discourse in ways never before imagined.ozmunkeh posted:I don't doubt the ACA has had many positive outcomes but on the whole it's a bad piece of legislation. Surely by handing all levers of government to the people responsible for it being as bad as it is we can have a much better solution, like pushing the VA and medicare to private health plans and block granting medicaid! 
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Nov 11, 2016 19:37
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boner confessor posted:i dunno, there's a solid argument that white leftists threw racial and sexual minorities under the bus in the interest of the Revolution Noted leftist the washington editor for the new york times Jonathan Weisman is in fact happy to willing to become more racist to get votes if it means we don't have to do anything about income inequality. https://twitter.com/jonathanweisman/status/797120114042793984
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Nov 11, 2016 19:36
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Peven Stan posted:How can they be helped if they're not in the tank for full communism? I've pointed out a slew of industrial countries where the jobs never came back to rural areas because of capitalism. Capitalism did this to them and it's not like a government whose business is big business is going to help them out.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:38
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Evil Fluffy posted:Jesus Christ, Peter Thiel is joining (possibly leading) Trump's transition team. This poo poo just gets worse every day. I'd be happy about the upcoming pogroms against the media if it wasn't for the fact the end result would be Breitbart, Infowars, and the rest of the far right media replacing them and poisoning American discourse in ways never before imagined. The gently caress
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Nov 11, 2016 19:39
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Bad Decision Dino posted:As I have argued before, they aren't up for it now, but consider that the US has been slowly trending towards socialism, and socialism will slowly trend toward communism. The real problem is that we must simply drag these people, kicking and screaming, into a system that will care for them. This is Whiggish nonsense, the US isn't trending towards anything except what we make of it. Also, counterpoint: Western Europe, right now. Well, it's not trending ideologically, necessarily. Demographic shifts are real though.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:38
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