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Admiral Ray posted:Yes but then those same people say gently caress unions, gently caress an increase in the minimum wage and worker protection, gently caress single payer, and gently caress you. We don't need your help Outside Government we'll die in misery on our own and make sure you do too. Don't touch my social security.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:39
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New York Times has pretty much declared it is a trash rag this election cycle. At least every response to that tweet is calling him the racist idiot he is.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:41
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Quorum posted:This is Whiggish nonsense, the US isn't trending towards anything except what we make of it. Also, counterpoint: Western Europe, right now.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:43
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Bad Decision Dino posted:To my knowledge, at least the Swedish, the Germans and the Dutch are at conducting experiments at the municipal level where they are simply giving their welfare recipients a basic income. How is this, in any sense except rhetorical, different from communism? Uh... Do you understand the term, means of production? What about markets?
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Nov 11, 2016 19:45
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Boon posted:Uh... I mean, what is communism but an equal opportunity to be a good consumer in a market controlled by single people/entities that frequently influence the ruling party to ensure continued consumption?
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Nov 11, 2016 19:47
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Bad Decision Dino posted:To my knowledge, at least the Swedish, the Germans and the Dutch are at conducting experiments at the municipal level where they are simply giving their welfare recipients a basic income. How is this, in any sense except rhetorical, different from communism? How do they wean them off of that program eventually?
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Nov 11, 2016 19:46
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Boon posted:Uh... cravius posted:How do they wean them off of that program eventually? Bad Decision Dino fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Nov 11, 2016 |
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Nov 11, 2016 19:47
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Bad Decision Dino posted:As I have argued before, they aren't up for it now, but consider that the US has been slowly trending towards socialism, and socialism will slowly trend toward communism. The real problem is that we must simply drag these people, kicking and screaming, into a system that will care for them. Idk about the socialism/communism stuff, but I agree about the kicking and screaming part. Tell them all the ridiculous lies they want to hear to vote for a real progressive, but the important thing is that progressives have to seriously deliver on a progressive economic policy once in power. At the end of the day, left wing economic policy helps the poor and right wing economic policy fucks them. A real left wing government that helps everyone in this country would change a lot of minds. Not all (bigotry is never going away completely), but a lot. Of course that's easier said than done. e: also gently caress the electoral college for the rest of time
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Nov 11, 2016 19:48
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Tiberius Christ posted:quit over reacting no one ever said it was, maybe just recognize that poor whites need help. Because they're poor, remember? Use those super enlightened liberal powers and realize that having poo poo wages, no retirement and bad health care affect everyone with no money regardless of skin color. But I guess you could just call them racist again. All right look, I know I don't post in D&D often but it's story time. I have a couple friends, they are a gay married couple. One is from Maryland (where they currently reside) and one is from Maine. Both are white, both are aetheist. Both are not financially well off, in fact they're barely holding it together right now on the apartment they rent with 2-3 other people. I have had discussions with them about things like minimum wage, pay gaps, social safety nets etc. They continuously are against raising the minimum wage because they think it means the price of everything will skyrocket and inflation is bad. Nothing I say, do, or show them, changes that opinion. They are against things like Welfare because they think Welfare Queens are a real thing, and the one from Maine was actually turned down for unemployment insurance and lost his apartment up there. The reason for being turned down, as he tells it, was that the people told him "since you're not black or a single mother you probably won't get it." Now yeah, that's a real dumb problem in a state that's like 96% white, that shouldn't have happened. At all. My solution as I outlined it to him was "fix the system in place so that people like you, who deserved help just as much as the others, can receive it, not take it away from everyone just because you didn't get it." But that didn't work. They both staunchly believe that governments and businesses should not have to cover for people's "mistakes". They think it's perfectly fine for women and minorities to be paid less in jobs despite similar qualifications because they see the world as inherently unfair and think that women get extra benefits like Maternity Leave and Minorities get benefits like Affirmative Action. They aren't wrong that the world is unfair, there's a lot of poo poo that's unfair, but their solution is to gently caress over people who aren't them for literally no benefit just because they were hosed by a bad system; usually a state-level bad system. Their solution is to want to get rid of programs that are nominally supposed to help them because they don't feel they're being helped enough. They think their solution is to make it harder for women and minorities to make money even though they constantly bang on and on about how money is the only way you get anything done in this country. Even worse, one of them has read "A People's History of the United States" so how the hell he comes to the conclusions he has is absolutely mind-boggling. Ultimately I don't know if either of them even voted this year because they didn't like Hilary but also really hated Trump How the gently caress do I reach people like that? I have tried being nice and I have tried not to just jump down their throats for supporting obviously racist and sexist ideas and they just will not budge. More importantly, if I can't even convince friends, how the gently caress do I, or anyone else, hope to convince complete strangers? Angry_Ed fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Nov 11, 2016 |
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Nov 11, 2016 19:48
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Evil Fluffy posted:Surely by handing all levers of government to the people responsible for it being as bad as it is we can have a much better solution, like pushing the VA and medicare to private health plans and block granting medicaid! Legitimately worried about this.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:48
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It comes down to ideological superstructure. Americans are the most propagandized to people on earth. Everyone in the old country knows the CCP is full of poo poo and their propaganda game is weak. Americans on the other hand get a choice of corporate kool aid to drink and major distractions from real issues like ownership in the time of mass automation.
CAPS LOCK BROKEN fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Nov 11, 2016 |
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Nov 11, 2016 19:51
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Bad Decision Dino posted:To my knowledge, at least the Swedish, the Germans and the Dutch are at conducting experiments at the municipal level where they are simply giving their welfare recipients a basic income. How is this, in any sense except rhetorical, different from communism? Germany doesn't do this. cravius posted:How do they wean them off of that program eventually? You don't, that's kind of the point?
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Nov 11, 2016 19:51
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Bad Decision Dino posted:So you are saying that "From each according to his means, to each according to his needs." isn't communism? Yes. That phrase that you just quoted, is not communism. It's a principle and a slogan based in the idea that scarcity is non-existent and a theory that pure socialism leads to sustainable growth - a tenant where the former is the entire basis of science-fiction and the latter has never been shown to be true.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:53
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Admiral Ray posted:I mean, what is communism but an equal opportunity to be a good consumer in a market controlled by single people/entities that frequently influence the ruling party to ensure continued consumption? Okay I'm just
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Nov 11, 2016 19:52
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People literally have no idea what communism actually is.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:54
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botany posted:Germany doesn't do this. Boon posted:Yes, that phrase that you just quoted, is not communism. It's a principle based in the idea that scarcity is non-existent and a theory that pure socialism leads to sustainable growth - a tenant where the former is the entire basis of science-fiction and the latter has never been shown to be true.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:54
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Bad Decision Dino posted:https://www.mein-grundeinkommen.de/ Woh! No really? It is not possible then that communism is some much larger idea than a simple slogan? Or is it just held to be true that every word Karl Marx ever uttered was 'Communism' (TM)? I once stood outside Karl Marx's childhood home, Bad Decision Dino, it was the most Communism thing.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:57
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Bad Decision Dino posted:To my knowledge, at least the Swedish, the Germans and the Dutch are at conducting experiments at the municipal level where they are simply giving their welfare recipients a basic income. How is this, in any sense except rhetorical, different from communism?
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Nov 11, 2016 19:56
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Bad Decision Dino posted:https://www.mein-grundeinkommen.de/ It is the guiding principle of a concept known as Solidarity. Practiced in policy in basically all of western and northern europe. Universal healthcare is one such policy linked to that principle.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:57
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hahahaha
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Nov 11, 2016 19:58
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Public service announcement: mincome, universal healthcare, free college, and most other things that the American right likes to call "socialism" are in fact policies designed explicitly to prop up capitalism.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:59
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Bad Decision Dino posted:That phrase is literally from Karl Marx. No it isn't, although he definitely repeated it with a whopping preface describing a communist society that isn't at all what you are talking about. For example, it's referring, among other things, to a society having entirely abolished private property.
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Nov 11, 2016 20:00
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mcmagic posted:I just don't see a viable path toward getting rid of the electoral college. Would be easier to reform it from a winner takes all thing.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:59
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lmao wtf kickstarter: socialism-lite edition
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Nov 11, 2016 20:01
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Fight for leadership also going on for house demsquote:House Democrats close to Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) are circulating a letter within the Democratic Women’s Caucus pledging support for the California Democrat to remain House Democratic leader amid growing frustration at the party’s disastrous showing in Tuesday’s election. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2016/11/11/house-democrats-scramble-to-avoid-post-election-revolt-against-pelosi/?tid=sm_tw
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Nov 11, 2016 20:01
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Crowsbeak posted:Yet they vote for a black man who listened to them. Maybe it's not as simple as your small mind thinks. And when Orange-Hitler told them he would get rid of brown people, Jews, and Muslims they listens to that as well, and decided they were just fine with allowing that to happen. Maybe you shouldn't let your pseudo-intellectualism justify whitewashing bigotry. Who What Now fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Nov 11, 2016 |
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Nov 11, 2016 20:01
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chumbler posted:The fallacy that democratic party policies completely ignore poor white people. well, there's a lot more to this idea rather than "it does" or "it doesn't" perception is reality and a lot of working class former industrial workers feel like the democrats are untrustworthy. the democrats were the party of unions, labor, and the working class until clinton(1). but now they've adopted the same economic ideology as reagan; you know that dreaded n-word of deregulation, offshoring jobs, and globalization. i know, we all know, that the republicans do it too, but many republicans go out of their way to adamantly support the working classes even if they're promising poo poo they can't/won't deliver on or won't actually help them. the dems have instead chosen to antagonize those very same people over social issues that those people care considerably less about. there is no "right" or "wrong" here. people have immediate needs and while it may be philosophically disappointing that various people over a continent sized nation with hundreds of millions of people with different backgrounds and cultures don't all agree on what is objectively "the right thing to do," we as a party need to realize that this is the reality. the democrats are the ones who passed NAFTA that accelerated globalization and are pushing for the TPP. i understand that many northern industrial jobs were already leaving the north for the looser labor regulations of the south, but NAFTA sped up the process of removing industry, whether it was inevitable or not. the dems are the party that nominated someone who profited directly from the economic powers that are so willing to gut the working class; whether or not what she was doing was just "par for the course," these people saw it as an indication of continued betrayal. the democrats have a serious perception problem with the working class. and i personally think its valid because what the country needs is radical economic change and the Democrats have no intention to fight to the death for it. its a hard thing to do because it'll piss of the elites that control the media and provide the money. the republicans can get away with it because their economic revolution already supports the elites (tax cuts, worshiping job creators, stripping away the cost of benefits, etc). whether its true or not, the democrats need to publicly and visibly fight harder for the working class (all people of all colors, mind you) if they want to bring these people back into the fold. someone here previously mentioned that trump was all emotion and hillary was all reason, but that's patently false. hillary had plenty of that emotion but that emotion was fear: "dangerous donald," "deplorables," "vote for us or else." the democrats and leftist politics in general are the politics of hope. we need to give all people hope that they can really believe in and make it look that we're fighting as hard as they need us to to bring them that hope.
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Nov 11, 2016 20:03
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Bad Decision Dino posted:So you are saying that "From each according to his means, to each according to his needs." isn't communism? It's less that caring for the homeless costs so much money, as that forcing people to remain homeless means they're going to get in trouble with the cops and commit crimes more often just to get by and survive. And that's what costs a lot of money, including frequent stints in jail/prison. Give people at least a safe place to stay of their own, and they end up getting involved in less problems and have a much easier time picking up some sort of legit job.
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Nov 11, 2016 20:04
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spotlessd posted:Okay I'm just I know, it's the perfect description of fishmech posted:It's less that caring for the homeless costs so much money, as that forcing people to remain homeless means they're going to get in trouble with the cops and commit crimes more often just to get by and survive. And that's what costs a lot of money, including frequent stints in jail/prison. See: SLC's homeless homes program.
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Nov 11, 2016 20:05
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boner confessor posted:lmao wtf Yeah for those who can't read German and are wondering why we're laughing at Bad Decision Dino: his idea of "an experiment with mincome at the municipal level" is a moronic kickstarter that collects money from donations and then hands out a guaranteed 1000 Euro income for one year, which isn't integrated with the German unemployment system, which means if you're the type of person who actually needs that mincome, you're hosed. How many people have they run this spectacular experiment on, you ask? Literally 53 of them. Communism is finally here, friends.
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Nov 11, 2016 20:07
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fishmech posted:It's less that caring for the homeless costs so much money, as that forcing people to remain homeless means they're going to get in trouble with the cops and commit crimes more often just to get by and survive. And that's what costs a lot of money, including frequent stints in jail/prison.
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Nov 11, 2016 20:07
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My first day in office I will create a special task force headed by Ben Carson to stop the increasing problem of exhaustion and insomnia in our country. For just a small monthly fee Ben Carson or one of his surrogates will personally drive to your house on demand and tell you stories about how great this country used to be and how supporting me is very important. It's going to be one of the great things this country has done and you're gonna love it.
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Nov 11, 2016 20:06
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Hey guys Trump won Texas by the same margin he won Ohio. I just wanna repeat that. He won Texas, the most hardcore Republican stronghold in the country, 38 EV Texas, by the same margin as a historic swing state that went blue for Obama twice. We will see a blue Texas the next time the Dems run an actual candidate.
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Nov 11, 2016 20:07
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Donald Trump's Agenda of Economic Populism continues. http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/11/trump-wants-to-let-wall-street-scam-customers-again.html quote:Trump Wants to Let Wall Street Scam Customers Again
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Nov 11, 2016 20:10
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botany posted:Yeah for those who can't read German and are wondering why we're laughing at Bad Decision Dino: his idea of "an experiment with mincome at the municipal level" is a moronic kickstarter that collects money from donations and then hands out a guaranteed 1000 Euro income for one year, which isn't integrated with the German unemployment system, which means if you're the type of person who actually needs that mincome, you're hosed. How many people have they run this spectacular experiment on, you ask? Literally 53 of them. Communism is finally here, friends.
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Nov 11, 2016 20:12
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Who is Keith Ellison and how should I feel about him? What are his credentials that make people think he will be good to lead the party? It seems like he's just some rando congress critter from Minneapolis.
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Nov 11, 2016 20:11
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Solkanar512 posted:Wait, seriously? I don't think Ellison is terrible choice but right now more than ever we need a solid 50-state strategy. https://twitter.com/GovHowardDean/status/796838538641833990 And while I think there's a reasonable circular-firing-squad purity argument to be made about his lobbyist history I'd love to see ol' Deano back. edit: also while I would love Chuck Schumer to not be Minority Leader I have no beef with Nancy Pelosi, I think she's done a really good job keeping everyone whipped and honestly don't know enough about her policy to complain about it.
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Nov 11, 2016 20:12
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Scent of Worf posted:Fight for leadership also going on for house dems It might be time for Pelosi to go. It is DEFINITELY time for Steve Israel to go.
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Nov 11, 2016 20:13
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Bad Decision Dino posted:I appear to have been mistaken on Germany being on board with it, here is an article on the Dutch version of it. http://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/experiment-in-vier-gemeenten-meer-vrijheid-voor-uitkeringsgerechtigden~a4386908/ Wow 200 Euros a month communism is finally here comrade
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Nov 11, 2016 20:14
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The fifty state strategy led to a bunch of blue dogs who immediately switched parties as soon as they got their DNC checks and their seats. We need A fifty state strategy, but not Dean's.
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Nov 11, 2016 20:14
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