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Lid posted:You know that unity doesn't sound appealing in the ivory tower when you have watched that adjusting the policies is for a group who turned to fascism as their out. Keep plucking the above it all string but the song getting played is terrible.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:12
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RuanGacho posted:This isn't how humanity works. You are right, and it is because people don't tell racists to stop being racist often enough.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:14
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mcmagic posted:is the person I would pick now for 2020 Presidential Candidate. And it's not close.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:14
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Lid posted:What about everyone who did vote for him. Some percentage of Trumps voters are deplorable, not 100% and if you're arguing otherwise you may need to check your economic privilege. This is not directed at you specifically Lid. Recriminations of who's at fault are pointless short of the Trump U case making all the electors go faithless. I refuse to go low and condem a portion of the populace who is as powerless to stop how Trumps Presidency could ruin lives as much as any Hillary voter. I've mentioned in passing before my libertarian minded friend who grew up just another 20 minutes more rural than me, it was just enough to shift our perspectives that I was a Dem leaner with a mother who grew up in poverty and became the American dream, college education and firmly planted into the middle class. There are people in my country, the greatest in the world who have no hope, at all. This cannot stand. I told my friend I get it now, I understand where my brother since pre school has been coming from. Speaking in identy politics, the culture war has been the MO of the Republicans ever since the 90s. The trick is the dog whistles were flying out of Trumps mouth the whole time but they were ECONOMIC. There was a 30% swing from Obama voters in many key blue states. We cannot abandon egalitarian equality for all people of all creeds colors and locations no one else will fight for those things. But America must look inward and decide what e pluribus unum really means.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:15
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Boon posted:The positions bandied about so far are the most Hatred is emboldened there are no repercussions for being racist or sexist or full of hate and oppression. Whats going to stop anyone? This isnt politics this is society. The dog whistle of no shame in hate is a klaxon.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:16
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pocket pool posted:
Nobody thinks we should compromise the tenants of our ideology, but our messaging is for poo poo. Dems have to start supporting the needs poor rural americans, which is about jobs. Did you see what Hillary said about putting the coal miners out of business? Yeah in context it wasn't so bleak, but to hear that when it's your livelihood is loving chilling. I don't have any proposals for legislation, but people a lot smarter than me and paid a lot more hosed this up and don't deserve to be the leaders of leftism in America. It shouldn't be about left and right, it should be about supporting as many Americans as we can.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:17
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Didn't the poorest whites still ended up voting more for Clinton than the middle class and up? This is not about economics. Gtfo.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:18
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703 posted:https://twitter.com/liamstack/status/797076800727875584 It's what the people want.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:18
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Tiberius Christ posted:Nobody thinks we should compromise the tenants of our ideology, but our messaging is for poo poo. Dems have to start supporting the needs poor rural americans, which is about jobs. Did you see what Hillary said about putting the coal miners out of business? Yeah in context it wasn't so bleak, but to hear that when it's your livelihood is loving chilling. I don't have any proposals for legislation, but people a lot smarter than me and paid a lot more hosed this up and don't deserve to be the leaders of leftism in America. Consider running for local office. The Democratic establishment is there because they ran for office, not because it was decreed they would be powerful.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:18
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Lid posted:Why are you not blaming the Republicans letting a racist populist get up? And do not play the card that they all are, do not pretend Mitt Romney neoliberalism is just as bad as this. Like there seems to a burning desire from the far left to look at how they didn't stop him rather than look at who held him up and who got him there openly and enthusiastically. Thats the divide right now. i don't blame the republicans (for our loss) because i'm not a republican. the republicans have been a dangerous, unstable party my entire political (and actual, i guess) life. i can't control that or them. and we've seen time and time again that challenging them simply on the basis of them being evil doesn't work. we need that but we also need to present ambitious solutions that we are committed to implementing so that we have the same kind of integrity that they do (people who vote republican know they'll do what they say, no matter what, like continuously and fruitlessly trying to repeal Obamacare). gently caress yeah they're bad. everyone who opposes them knows their bad. but the democrats this year came off just as bad (whether or not its true) and we lost. what i can control is my party, the democrats. and right now the democrats need to make up the losses they just created. its all on the democrats. in a political reality where votes have to be earned, fought for, and brought to the polls its up to us to make sure the platform is designed to do just that. Quorum posted:Point well taken, and I know some of this is simply anger and frustration grounding itself on this dumbshit thread, but I've seen some people posting things like "gently caress you if you voted for Clinton [unclear on whether in general or primary], you're the problem, get out." And this is all well and good except those people are important too. Remember that her base always lay partially in minority voters and black machine politics in the South; these people are going to be important to the Democratic Party. Purge all the n-words in leadership you want, I certainly think there have been some catastrophic failures in policy, but one of the reason I think Ellison would be pretty good is that he is black and a Muslim. He's not likely to yield to the temptation to slash and burn an important part of any future Democratic coalition: Hillary voters. Growing the base means keeping your old base too-- sever some poisonous apples if you need to, I think starting with people like our glorious new Senate majority leader would be a good start, but there's still the basics of a workable coalition here moving forward I think. yes, we can't burn it all down. we need the people who are still here and we need bring in more people we've alienated. the hillary supporters need to accept that their candidate and platform was massively unsuccessful and the people who didn't support them need to find a way to accept their failures and move on. the reason that's not happening is because the hillary supporters are too proud to admit that they loving blew it, and the others are equally to proud to move on without an apology(of sorts). obviously i'm a bit biased because i think the democrats completely squandered this election and it doesn't look like they've learned anything from it other than to hate the people that don't support them more. and its hard to move on when basic things like "lets readjust our primary focus to making the economic situations for ALL working class people" gets shouted down as racist or abandoning social justice (even though that's a loving stupid assumption to make). i signed bernie's petition to nominate ellison the moment it was posted in this thread (or the election thread). i think ellison is a great way to go forward. i also think we ALL need to move forward. but that means changing the democrats platform and until hillary supporters cease their stubborn intransigence, that can't happen.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:19
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Idia posted:Didn't the poorest whites still ended up voting more for Clinton than the middle class and up? This is not about economics. Gtfo. No I think <30k overall went Clinton while <30k whites went Trump.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:20
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Tiberius Christ posted:Nobody thinks we should compromise the tenants of our ideology, but our messaging is for poo poo. Dems have to start supporting the needs poor rural americans, which is about jobs. Did you see what Hillary said about putting the coal miners out of business? Yeah in context it wasn't so bleak, but to hear that when it's your livelihood is loving chilling. I don't have any proposals for legislation, but people a lot smarter than me and paid a lot more hosed this up and don't deserve to be the leaders of leftism in America. Why do you refer to the democratic party, a liberal organization, as the "leaders of leftism in america", and not say, the people who've been politically marginalized for half a century but have in retrospect been vindicated on every single issue from labour rights to civil rights to war? You know, actual leftists and not liberals?
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Nov 11, 2016 21:19
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Spacebump posted:If we didn't have term limits, Obama would have won a third time. See his approval rating. Obama wouldn't have that approval rating if he weren't term-limited. Absent a Bush-style major fuckup, outgoing two term Presidents get a bit of a goodbye party in their numbers, since they're basically agendaless after their last midterm. The hate machine isn't pointed at him anymore.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:20
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Tiberius Christ posted:Nobody thinks we should compromise the tenants of our ideology, but our messaging is for poo poo. Dems have to start supporting the needs poor rural americans, which is about jobs. Did you see what Hillary said about putting the coal miners out of business? Yeah in context it wasn't so bleak, but to hear that when it's your livelihood is loving chilling. I don't have any proposals for legislation, but people a lot smarter than me and paid a lot more hosed this up and don't deserve to be the leaders of leftism in America. Right, there's absolutely something to be said for how the message is delivered - Obama's success is, in part, due to this ability. And really, I feel like some of that depends on the message being delivered. (For example, a discussion about gay rights or a woman's right to choose - I don't feel too bad if a candidate takes a 'no bullshit' approach to delivering that message that comes off as condescending.)
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Nov 11, 2016 21:20
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Idia posted:Didn't the poorest whites still ended up voting more for Clinton than the middle class and up? This is not about economics. Gtfo. I don't know, are you asking a question and then making an assumption without knowing the answer that underpins your argument?
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Nov 11, 2016 21:22
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Idia posted:Didn't the poorest whites still ended up voting more for Clinton than the middle class and up? This is not about economics. Gtfo. http://www.weeklystandard.com/the-election-came-down-to-107330-votes-in-pennsylvania-wisconsin-and-michigan/article/2005323 In short, between about 1/4 and 1/3 of people earning under $50,000 in the Industrial north didn't vote for Hillary that did vote for Obama, and a lot of them ended up voting for Trump.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:22
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Boon posted:The position candidates bandied about so far are the most There was a story in the AP about how there is going to be a crisis in staffing the federal government, especially the foreign service, State Department, and Department of Defense. The reasons being: 1) Positions are usually staffed with experienced hands from previous administrations and academic policy experts. Trump has almost nobody from academic policy circles who wants to work in his administration except Heritage types who think they can just get him to adopt whatever they push at him. All Republican foreign policy experts that are still alive are from the first Bush admin (not popular with Trump or the modern Republican party) or the second Bush admin (most of these people worked for JEB! and have publicly vowed to not work for Trump. 2) Team Trump didn't think they were going to win and are scrambling to do staff reviews and just going with loyalists. These positions have to be filled, especially the foreign policy ones, but there is nobody to actually do it. That means there is going to be a crisis where we either get completely unqualified Trump flacks like Newt as Secretary of State or Heritage / Industry stooges like Jamie Dimon at Treasury.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:25
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Idia posted:Didn't the poorest whites still ended up voting more for Clinton than the middle class and up? This is not about economics. Gtfo. https://twitter.com/KFILE/status/797106497247449088 https://twitter.com/KFILE/status/797109101679570944
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Nov 11, 2016 21:24
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RuanGacho posted:Some percentage of Trumps voters are deplorable, not 100% and if you're arguing otherwise you may need to check your economic privilege. This is not directed at you specifically Lid. The second is the obsession with introspective contemplating the navel - people are going to die. This isnt about the American dream, America is broken. It was torn in half a few days ago. It can bot be fixed or even gained knowledge thrpugh deep meditative thought when the alt right controls all branches of government. You and others are acting like this is a loving university essay.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:25
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Tiberius Christ posted:Nobody thinks we should compromise the tenants of our ideology, but our messaging is for poo poo. Dems have to start supporting the needs poor rural americans, which is about jobs. Did you see what Hillary said about putting the coal miners out of business? Yeah in context it wasn't so bleak, but to hear that when it's your livelihood is loving chilling. I don't have any proposals for legislation, but people a lot smarter than me and paid a lot more hosed this up and don't deserve to be the leaders of leftism in America. I'm glad you brought this up because it's a good example of why Hillary lost, particularly in states like Indiana, Ohio, etc. That line just smacked me in the face because it reeked of ivory tower limousine liberal big city poo poo that might be OK to her immediate base but just seems cold hearted as hell in the heartland, and the election returns just back this up. Who the gently caress wrote that line? And why did no one have the brains to say "Look I know your industry is dying but we're here to help you through this, keep you and your kids on your same healthcare benefits, make sure you can still put food on the table, train you for a green energy job and generally give you a hand in making this change for you and your childrens' future" etc etc etc, how hard would that have been? And look, you just expressed some of the best of what liberal policies have to offer, all in one sentence on one specific issue! Am I really this far ahead of the Clinton folks or am I missing something? This is why she lost, at least in part.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:25
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RaySmuckles posted:yes, we can't burn it all down. we need the people who are still here and we need bring in more people we've alienated. the hillary supporters need to accept that their candidate and platform was massively unsuccessful and the people who didn't support them need to find a way to accept their failures and move on. the reason that's not happening is because the hillary supporters are too proud to admit that they loving blew it, and the others are equally to proud to move on without an apology(of sorts). I mean, I think Hillary's strongest primary base, black Southerners, have already moved on, knuckled down, and gotten to the business of surviving under the yoke of oppression. They've got plenty of experience at it. I'm not sure what windmills you're tilting at here; there really aren't many coastal elite neoliberals posting ITT. Plenty of people who thought she'd have made a good president, even if she wasn't their first choice of candidate, and I refuse to abdicate that position, but the fact is she isn't president, so we have to move on and figure out what works from here on out.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:25
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Zikan posted:https://twitter.com/KFILE/status/797106497247449088 Yeah, economic dogwhistling. If you didn't hear it( I sure didn't at the time) it wasn't aimed at you.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:28
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If I or someone in my family were a Muslim, I think today's news would be what would have clinched a decision to scramble to figure out somewhere else in the world to go, at least for a few years.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:29
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Zikan posted:https://twitter.com/KFILE/status/797106497247449088 The lesson we should learn from this is to scream at these people and call them Nazis. While offering more trade deals, and deregulation.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:28
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VH4Ever posted:I'm glad you brought this up because it's a good example of why Hillary lost, particularly in states like Indiana, Ohio, etc. That line just smacked me in the face because it reeked of ivory tower limousine liberal big city poo poo that might be OK to her immediate base but just seems cold hearted as hell in the heartland, and the election returns just back this up. Who the gently caress wrote that line? And why did no one have the brains to say "Look I know your industry is dying but we're here to help you through this, keep you and your kids on your same healthcare benefits, make sure you can still put food on the table, train you for a green energy job and generally give you a hand in making this change for you and your childrens' future" etc etc etc, how hard would that have been? And look, you just expressed some of the best of what liberal policies have to offer, all in one sentence on one specific issue! Am I really this far ahead of the Clinton folks or am I missing something? They don't want green energy jobs they want the same jobs (the ones they know they can do) they've always had. Clinton did say this at the debate, but what gets heard is "bzzz gently caress your current job bzzz". Telling a 50 year old man who got punted out of his coal/factory/slaughterhouse job because he's physically broken and the company doesn't even provide real medical/workers' comp that he needs to retool to live and provide for his family doesn't win him to your side. Lying to him might though.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:30
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Zikan posted:https://twitter.com/KFILE/status/797106497247449088 Nothing to see here. There's nothing we could've done differently to keep these populations on our side, but I think a four-year campaign of tutting and shaming will make them see the light come 2020, plus it'll feel really drat good, so consider that a morale booster
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Nov 11, 2016 21:30
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eviltastic posted:If I or someone in my family were a Muslim, I think today's news would be what would have clinched a decision to scramble to figure out somewhere else in the world to go, at least for a few years. What was today's news that's so especially bad?
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Nov 11, 2016 21:30
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:What was today's news that's so especially bad? Torturer to head the CIA? BTW I don't think Jose Rodriguez could get 50 votes in the senate.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:33
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Trump gets compared to Berlusconi a lot. Anyone with a good working knowledge of Berlusconi who can give a good summary of what that is going to mean for Trump's presidency?
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Nov 11, 2016 21:34
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:What was today's news that's so especially bad? Newt wants to kickstart a new Un-american Activities Commission but for muslims.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:33
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mcmagic posted:Torturer to head the CIA? Architect of torture program, please. He's no lowly torturer.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:34
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Lid posted:I disagree on two premises - that to be overly nuanced here is a white mans attempt at trying to wash their hands to support a slogan through the entire campaign - i'm not full of hate i just support Trump. This was and always will be a joke. The apologism now for it is utterly appalling and it was appalling when people thought Trump might only get 40% of the vote. Winning doesn't loving validate peoples feelings or the actual notion. I am personally and deeply affected by the presidency in ways that I don't care to disclose, in nit the world at large. But my life's work is trying to make the world a better place for everyone and I feel compelled to take a long view on how to prevent Trump from ever happening again, and make sure the coming world is multiracial and free. America never was, America can yet be, I will do my best to deliver it to our children better than I was given.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:34
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Squashing Machine posted:Nothing to see here. There's nothing we could've done differently to keep these populations on our side, but I think a four-year campaign of tutting and shaming will make them see the light come 2020, plus it'll feel really drat good, so consider that a morale booster What is your proposal on altering messaging? Does it involve limiting the importance of anti-racism in the Democratic platform and message in order to appeal to white Midwesterners? If not, how is people stressing the importance of anti-racism contrary to your proposal?
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Nov 11, 2016 21:35
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Admiral Ray posted:They don't want green energy jobs they want the same jobs (the ones they know they can do) they've always had. Clinton did say this at the debate, but what gets heard is "bzzz gently caress your current job bzzz". I'm fairly certain there's a way to sell people on new jobs, as long as you get a charismatic person to sell them as equally dignified and equally certain as what was available in the past, and, crucially, if the speaker is trusted. But people will say it's not possible, because Clinton was a tone deaf idiot with communications skills of a toddler.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:36
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So all I've learned so far is Dems need to lie to poor whites and tell them their jobs will come back, then not change anything while relying on big bombastic statements rather then policy promises. Don't change any actual mechanics, just yell "15 DOLLAR MINIMUM WAGE, ALL THE JOBS" over and over and offer no concrete solutions in actual debate; people don't want those. Leave the policy in the platform that the wonks can look at, just turn the message to the most basic, low, common denominator possible; aim for the emotions and feelings of being oppressed and a hunger for a quick victory over having to explain positions. If they do that then maybe they can win back poor whites?
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Nov 11, 2016 21:36
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Tir McDohl posted:Trump gets compared to Berlusconi a lot. Anyone with a good working knowledge of Berlusconi who can give a good summary of what that is going to mean for Trump's presidency?
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Nov 11, 2016 21:36
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mcmagic posted:Torturer to head the CIA? BTW I don't think Jose Rodriguez could get 50 votes in the senate. I think you're going to be unpleasantly surprised by just how many terrible things can, in fact, get 50 Republican votes in the Senate.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:36
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If I organized a minstrel show of homeless people with a promise to buy them dinner, no one would say that the homeless people weren't being racist when they participated. They might (probably?) forgive those homeless people of their racist actions because of the direness of their situation, but no one would say that what they were doing was good or not racist. But, a bunch of white voters, who literally didn't understand Hillary Clinton according to Matt Taibbi's article, voted for Trump because they liked what he was saying. Why is this ok? Because large parts of this country still refuses to own their racism and there are also plenty of people who are happy to carry water for them.
MickeyFinn fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Nov 11, 2016 |
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Nov 11, 2016 21:36
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Zikan posted:https://twitter.com/KFILE/status/797106497247449088 A steady diet of Jim Crow will do that. Squashing Machine posted:Nothing to see here. There's nothing we could've done differently to keep these populations on our side, but I think a four-year campaign of tutting and shaming will make them see the light come 2020, plus it'll feel really drat good, so consider that a morale booster A lot of them will be dead from their own electoral decisions in 4 years.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:36
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Tir McDohl posted:Trump gets compared to Berlusconi a lot. Anyone with a good working knowledge of Berlusconi who can give a good summary of what that is going to mean for Trump's presidency? Berlusconi was a slimy criminal media syndicate head who ran the country like the Mafia and proved surprisingly resilient over the long term despite an enormous list of scandals (such as sleeping with underaged models at crazy parties, for instance.)
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Nov 11, 2016 21:37
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