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Quorum posted:What is your proposal on altering messaging? Does it involve limiting the importance of anti-racism in the Democratic platform and message in order to appeal to white Midwesterners? If not, how is people stressing the importance of anti-racism contrary to your proposal? You win these people by adding a plank of economic populism. A black man named Barack Hussein Obama portrayed himself in 2012 as saving the auto industry (i.e. thousands of jobs in the rust belt) vs. a chariticure of gordan geeko / i.e. economic populism vs a technocrat Imagine if Hillary had invested in ads like this one from the steelworkers instead of "Trump's crazy lol" *ukalele & glockenspiel music* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7oxlTfqYk0
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Nov 11, 2016 21:38
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DaveWoo posted:I think you're going to be unpleasantly surprised by just how many terrible things can, in fact, get 50 Republican votes in the Senate. Nah, I won't. I think there are 3 votes against Torture though. If only because John McCain is in the senate and Flake with vote with him. That just leaves one more vote which I think they can get.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:39
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steinrokkan posted:I'm fairly certain there's a way to sell people on new jobs, as long as you get a charismatic person to sell them as equally dignified and equally certain as what was available in the past. So lie to them. There is no certainty on creating new jobs, not for a President. No matter how you cut it the Democratic platform on "bringing back our jobs" amounts to telling people to retool and/or move. Solar companies aren't gonna build their solar plant in the middle of Pennsylvania or Michigan. The Republican platform is that those Democrats and their regulations are gonna put you outta work and I stop regulations, vote for me if you want to live.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:38
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:What was today's news that's so especially bad? HUAC but for Muslims and the person who started Bush's fun time Gitmo water park being considered for director of the CIA. Man is people thought HUAC 1.0 was bad just wait until a HUAC with the spying powers of the current NSA behind it gets going
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Nov 11, 2016 21:40
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Tir McDohl posted:Trump gets compared to Berlusconi a lot. Anyone with a good working knowledge of Berlusconi who can give a good summary of what that is going to mean for Trump's presidency? http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21709984-americans-could-look-italy-taste-things-come-what-donald-trump-and-silvio
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Nov 11, 2016 21:40
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Quorum posted:I mean, I think Hillary's strongest primary base, black Southerners, have already moved on, knuckled down, and gotten to the business of surviving under the yoke of oppression. They've got plenty of experience at it. I'm not sure what windmills you're tilting at here; there really aren't many coastal elite neoliberals posting ITT. Plenty of people who thought she'd have made a good president, even if she wasn't their first choice of candidate, and I refuse to abdicate that position, but the fact is she isn't president, so we have to move on and figure out what works from here on out. cool, let's move on together and remake american great again, again! as for windmills: Lid posted:to be overly nuanced here is a white mans attempt at trying to wash their hands to support a slogan through the entire campaign - i'm not full of hate i just support Trump. painting everyone who voted for trump or didn't vote at all as this is not going help anyone OR win elections, whether you believe it to be true or not. Lid posted:The second is the obsession with introspective contemplating the navel - people are going to die. This isnt about the American dream, America is broken. It was torn in half a few days ago. It can bot be fixed or even gained knowledge thrpugh deep meditative thought the people who voted trump or didn't vote at all don't think the american dream died a few days ago. they thought it died YEARS if not DECADES ago and they've lived that pain first hand. they've seen their people DIE TOO because of bad policy. these are people trying to reconcile elected official after elected official failing to bring about the change they so easily promise for DECADES. this isn't their first time trying something new. many of them were life-long republicans who tried something new with Obama too and ended up still getting nothing. they're desperate. they're beyond desperate. these are the people who lives have become some miserable and they've in turn become so radicalized that they're willing to watch the system burn rather than be lied to again. let's NOT lie to them. let's bring them the economic change they so desperately require. let's bring them into the fold and if we show them how great we are to them and how good we've been for them, then our other policies that don't necessarily directly affect them might be seen as good too. RaySmuckles fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Nov 11, 2016 |
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Nov 11, 2016 21:39
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Stallion Cabana posted:So all I've learned so far is Dems need to lie to poor whites and tell them their jobs will come back, then not change anything while relying on big bombastic statements rather then policy promises. You are expecting some assholes posting on a comedy forum to come up with a communications strategy for a party that hires an army of experts, Naturally nobody is going to give you a point by point plan on something that the loving party failed to compile, two days after the breaking point. But what needs to be done is certain, and lol if there's nobody in the entire Democratic camp to do it competently. Hell, the Conservatives have been having success on this front for decades at this point, and they are even less sincere than the Democrats.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:40
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Stallion Cabana posted:So all I've learned so far is Dems need to lie to poor whites and tell them their jobs will come back, then not change anything while relying on big bombastic statements rather then policy promises.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:39
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Mozi posted:(such as sleeping with underaged models at crazy parties, for instance.) Weird, I wonder why people see the similarity
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Nov 11, 2016 21:42
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steinrokkan posted:You are expecting some assholes posting on a comedy forum to come up with a communications strategy for a party that hires an army of experts, Naturally nobody is going to give you a point by point plan on something that the loving party failed to compile, two days after the breaking point. But what needs to be done is certain, and lol if there's nobody in the entire Democratic camp to do it competently. Hell, the Conservatives have been having success on this front for decades at this point, and they are even less sincere than the Democrats. To be tremendously cynical, part of this is because the Right has access to a huge and pervasive propaganda network that hits all the people they need to sway. I'm not sure what the answer is there, but I don't think it's "create a leftist Breitbart."
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Nov 11, 2016 21:43
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On the other hand Berlusconi also led an extremely effective fight against the Mafia during the 1990s and kept on with it despite judges getting car bombed etc. on the reg', and is at least partly responsible for Making Italy Great Again after the unbelievable economic and social turmoil of the seventies into eighties. (He is a wrong'un though yes)
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Nov 11, 2016 21:44
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jBrereton posted:Maybe the party that has championed NAFTA and similar deals could own up to the fact that many factories have gone abroad because of it, and suggest good ways to deal with rural/small-town poverty instead of treating slowly-dying swathes of the US like a particularly unpleasant foreign country to be sneered at from afar and raked over by VICE media grade anthropologists from a nice intellectual distance. this is stupid. if you're going to engage in subsidies to unemployed workers, it's far more effective to just give them money or do government make-work employment than set up some potemkin subsidy of inefficient, unnecessary private industries just so that people can feel like they put in 40 hours earning their welfare making broom handles or whatever. the problem is that rural/small town impoverished people want dignity more than they want a material standard of living, and the government cannot supply the sensation of a hard week's work at the cotton mill even local governments have very few tools to attract jobs, namely property tax and utility subsidies - and these jobs are often not cost effective relative to the price paid. how the federal government would penetrate layers of state and local government to directly create jobs is a huge unknown and is unfeasible from a policy standpoint, which is why trump is laying out unrealistic promises about tarrifs and protectionism (which would massively hurt rural areas, gg everything in wal-mart costing 30% more overnight) boner confessor fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Nov 11, 2016 |
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Nov 11, 2016 21:44
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jBrereton posted:Maybe the party that has championed NAFTA and similar deals could own up to the fact that many factories have gone abroad because of it, and suggest good ways to deal with rural/small-town poverty instead of treating slowly-dying swathes of the US like a particularly unpleasant foreign country to be sneered at from afar and raked over by VICE media grade anthropologists from a nice intellectual distance. Donald Trump should ban robots or else he is poo poo out of loving luck getting manufacturing jobs up. Manufacturing production output is actually up in the US despite lost jobs and this will continue. Look, the bottom line is that people wanted to Democrats to LIE better than Trump about building up manufacturing jobs in the Midwest. No one can do it. The jobs are going BYE BYE. Small towns will die. The truth hurts but it's the truth and it is what it is.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:46
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RaySmuckles posted:cool, let's move on together and remake american great again, again! Please then, outline your view in how to save the rust belt. Go ahead, put your policy here. Right now. Also nice touch with associating "radicalised" there.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:45
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jBrereton posted:Maybe the party that has championed NAFTA and similar deals could own up to the fact that many factories have gone abroad because of it You mean the Republicans?
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Nov 11, 2016 21:46
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Stallion Cabana posted:So all I've learned so far is Dems need to lie to poor whites and tell them their jobs will come back, then not change anything while relying on big bombastic statements rather then policy promises. Well also aim to actually pass that, and not water it down to assuage idiot liberals feelings.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:46
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Admiral Ray posted:So lie to them. There is no certainty on creating new jobs, not for a President. No matter how you cut it the Democratic platform on "bringing back our jobs" amounts to telling people to retool and/or move. Solar companies aren't gonna build their solar plant in the middle of Pennsylvania or Michigan. The Republican platform is that those Democrats and their regulations are gonna put you outta work and I stop regulations, vote for me if you want to live. Its your job as a politician to come up with publically beneficial initiatives. If you cant do that, RIP.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:48
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Lid posted:Please then, outline your view in how to save the rust belt. Go ahead, put your policy here. Right now. GMI is probably the only way to manage it, tbh good luck selling anyone out there on it, though
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Nov 11, 2016 21:47
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paranoid randroid posted:GMI is probably the only way to manage it, tbh Honestly the main shortcoming of GMI (outside of COMMUNISM COMMUNISM COMMUNISM) is that it doesn't supply that heartwarming feeling of dignity that many people attach to a stable, good job, and that's as much whats being demanded as actual work. A jobs program could do, but that has its own drawbacks.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:48
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steinrokkan posted:Its your job as a politician to come up with publically beneficial initiatives. If you cant do that, RIP. democrats did, these initiatives were blocked in congress and rejected by republican state governments if i offer a homeless man $10 for food and he rejects it because it's not $50 and a tugjob then it's not my fault for not meeting his demands when he goes hungry
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Nov 11, 2016 21:50
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Mozi posted:Berlusconi was a slimy criminal media syndicate head who ran the country like the Mafia and proved surprisingly resilient over the long term despite an enormous list of scandals (such as sleeping with underaged models at crazy parties, for instance.) It helped this was the height of neoliberalism and the left was just dead period.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:50
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HorseLord posted:Why do you refer to the democratic party, a liberal organization, as the "leaders of leftism in america", and not say, the people who've been politically marginalized for half a century but have in retrospect been vindicated on every single issue from labour rights to civil rights to war? You know, actual leftists and not liberals? "leaders of leftism" only because it's what most people think of when they say liberals or leftism, and their whole neoliberal ideology has proved to suck complete rear end. Truth is I think Bernie is still the best path to progressive leftism, this pro-business politics is not what most leftists want from a party.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:50
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Quorum posted:Honestly the main shortcoming of GMI (outside of COMMUNISM COMMUNISM COMMUNISM) is that it doesn't supply that heartwarming feeling of dignity that many people attach to a stable, good job, and that's as much whats being demanded as actual work. A jobs program could do, but that has its own drawbacks. yeah, this is exactly it. small town republicans who want the jobs to come back aren't necessarily missing the income from those jobs, they're missing the sense of purpose that well-paying employment provides. but if you don't live in the right place or have the right job skills or know the right people or have the right amount of capital, you're going to have a hell of a time getting well-paying employment. it's simply a fact of life in our economy and it's why rust belters aren't going to go in for an expanded welfare state, they want nothing short of time travel to a pre-globalist economic paradigm boner confessor fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Nov 11, 2016 |
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Nov 11, 2016 21:50
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Tiberius Christ posted:"leaders of leftism" only because it's what most people think of when they say liberals or leftism, and their whole neoliberal ideology has proved to suck complete rear end. Truth is I think Bernie is still the best path to progressive leftism, this pro-business politics is not what most leftists want from a party. Please don't engage the Actual Tankie, he isn't arguing in good faith about American governance.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:52
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Trump is in a WSJ interview right now, Reuters is giving live updates.quote:In interview, Trump also says he would preserve jobs by potentially imposing tariffs on products of U.S. companies that relocate overseas.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:51
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Quorum posted:To be tremendously cynical, part of this is because the Right has access to a huge and pervasive propaganda network that hits all the people they need to sway. I'm not sure what the answer is there, but I don't think it's "create a leftist Breitbart." You know, people keep talking about the left's strength and organization in the pre-war years. Guess what, back in the day the left had a massive, decentralized information apparatus that carried leftist news and talking points, informed about events, etc. Every loving place where people lived or worked had its own newspapers, and they were all linked into a giant network. Corporate press is the death of leftism, and of anything other than commodified edutainment masquerading as the news.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:52
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:What was today's news that's so especially bad? The news about one of the minds behind our torture program being in consideration for head of the CIA, coming right on the heels of Arpaio being floated for head of Homeland Security yesterday. Trump doesn't know what he's doing or who to pick, so he's falling back on the greatest hits album. Maybe he'll give Michael Brown another crack at FEMA or something. Dr. VooDoo posted:HUAC but for Muslims That bit from Gingrich is actually relatively old news.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:53
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Lid posted:Please then, outline your view in how to save the rust belt. Go ahead, put your policy here. Right now. 1) stop calling them racist, misogynist, bigots 2) hire people to come up with economic plans beyond "you're hosed. sorry, but that's just the way it is" these people are radicalized though? they just elected a radical leader! what else would you call them?
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Nov 11, 2016 21:53
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steinrokkan posted:You know, people keep talking about the left's strength and organization in the pre-war years. Guess what, back in the day the left had a massive, decentralized information apparatus that carried leftist news and talking points, informed about events, etc. Every loving place where people lived or worked had its own newspapers, and they were all linked into a giant network. Corporate press is the death of leftism, and of anything other than commodified edutainment masquerading as the news. The future of left-wing messaging is not "socialist newsletters." RaySmuckles posted:1) stop calling them racist, misogynist, bigots That wasn't the economic plan this cycle. There was plenty of poo poo in the platform and the campaign about retraining and new jobs and all that fun stuff. The media just seized on the "yeah those jobs aren't coming back" part and not the "but here's some stuff we can do to help" part. And I'm not sure there's a solution to that without an entirely new media, except maybe lying about the "yeah those jobs aren't coming back" thing, which is what Trump did.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:53
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fishmech posted:You mean the Republicans? The chance was there to torpedo it at the start of Clinton's administration, and it wasn't.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:52
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paranoid randroid posted:GMI is probably the only way to manage it, tbh http://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/a/#p/grade-sheet/gpa I got your jobs plan right here. 
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Nov 11, 2016 21:54
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The only way white liberals will get their "no war but the class war" is to go out into the communities of the rust belt, talk to their relatives and friends, and get them to stop being such racist asshats. They aren't going along with any class help that will help people with melanin until you start swaying them. Period. They will ALWAYS vote against their interests if those interests help brown and black people. But white liberals will hem and haw because making any sort of sacrifice that will benefit brown and black people, they are for the most part unwilling to do. It's the flip side of the same coin of the white conservatives that vote against their interests. End of the day, neither group is really that interested in helping anyone but white people. One group is way more ideologically pure about it, to the point of shortening their own lives and the lives of their children for it.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:54
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boner confessor posted:democrats did, these initiatives were blocked in congress and rejected by republican state governments At that point is is the Democrat's job to point at the culrits, much like the Republicans do any time some of their legislation gets blocked. And don't just point fingers, tell people how their representatives cost them millions of dollars, how he dismantled their community, etc. And do it through people embedded within their own ranks, so they can't be dismissed as ivory tower liberals.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:54
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Spaced God posted:Trump is in a WSJ interview right now, Reuters is giving live updates. 
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Nov 11, 2016 21:55
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steinrokkan posted:At that point is is the Democrat's job to point at the culrits, much like the Republicans do any time some of their legislation gets blocked. And don't just point fingers, tell people how their representatives cost them millions of dollars, how he dismantled their community, etc. And do it through people embedded within their own ranks, so they can't be dismissed as ivory tower liberals. you may not be aware of this, but american politics are ridiculously polarized and republicans have all-time low levels of trust in the mainstream media apparatus. so please articulate a way in which democrats, centrists, or any other non-republican party media source can rationally point out how republican governance is actively harmful to republican voters. when you say "people embedded in their ranks" who exactly do you have in mind?
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Nov 11, 2016 21:55
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Quorum posted:The future of left-wing messaging is not "socialist newsletters." It is the modern evolution of that, which is once again something the right has already adopted, while the left relies on their squeaky clean messengers like Ezra Klein.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:54
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steinrokkan posted:Its your job as a politician to come up with publically beneficial initiatives. If you cant do that, RIP. It looks more like the job of a politician is to convince people that you have those initiatives and that they'll be easy to implement and won't gently caress up your target voters' lives. Trump doesn't have those initiatives and won against someone that does, but Clinton's initiatives are tainted by her and her historical scandals. Like she could have promised more coal/factories/dildo plants but she didn't because that's not what she thinks are sustainable/what the voters want. People wouldn't have believed her anyway.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:56
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Wait...do you think the secret is really just Obama asking Trump to do stuff, and then he does it?
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Nov 11, 2016 21:55
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paranoid randroid posted:GMI is probably the only way to manage it, tbh They don't want a welfare state, that much is clear. They want a very specific solution to their problem that is incompatible with both reality and progressive politics. Hell it's closest counterpart would be Soviet Union style fake projects just to give something to do, that's not a kafka-esque nightmare to them thats their idea of what they want. People arguing that their oppression and being avoided and ignored... they can't unify that with that there isn't an answer to it that is with their own political beliefs. They sided with the right not just because it's economically populist, but because its what they want. The left populism isn't what they want and this avenue of arguing people tried to shift it down is headlong into apologism.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:55
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RuanGacho posted:http://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/a/#p/grade-sheet/gpa yeah im all in favor of a new CCC, but it still doesnt address the problem that 10-15 years down the line when weve hit carrying capacity for bridges and poo poo, the coal mine still aint reopening
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