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We had exactly this happen in Toronto with the "Ford Nation" vote. You can't debate policy, because they're not selling policy, they're selling angry nonsense. You can't argue the merits of a plan that's logically/logistically impossible, and you can't convince anyone who's willing to believe it, that that's the case.
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Nov 11, 2016 21:58
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PT6A posted:1) Many people are for freer international migration, there's no particularly good reason to be against it, provided it's reciprocated. 1) these days migration is being played as a way for the ruling class to suppress wages in this country and there are signs that this may be the truth migration and is not at all reciprocated. Those coming here gain. The minority at the top gain a lot more and the majority at the bottom lose out. 2) 'hard on crime' is bullshit and I wish more people realized that rehabilitation is more important than revenge but the desire for revenge is animalistic, easy to exploit and hard to combat. The left should not adopt hard on crime but they need a better method to effectivly reiterate exaclty why its bad for society 3) they're already a compromise but the only ones on our side of the equation who are being asked to bear the burden of that compromise is the working class. Until the ruling class shares the burden of that compromise the sentiment will be 'gently caress free trade' 4) It's easy to convince a human being to be altruistic when they feel safe secure and comfortable. Unfortunately a lot of people feel anything but. Ask someone who is in a precarious position to give up what little they have to someone they have no real connection for the sake of an abstract sense of global justice and they're going to snap at you the same way an animal snaps when you get between it and its dinner
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Nov 11, 2016 22:00
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EvilJoven posted:4) It's easy to convince a human being to be altruistic when they feel safe secure and comfortable. Unfortunately a lot of people feel anything but. Ask someone who is in a precarious position to give up what little they have to someone they have no real connection for the sake of an abstract sense of global justice and they're going to snap at you the same way an animal snaps when you get between it and its dinner You keep repeating this point, and it's not that I disagree, but how to you propose making these angry white folks feel secure and comfortable?
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Nov 11, 2016 22:07
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IMO there needs to be regulations in place to target market forces that widen the inequality gap. When the playing field isn't level laissez faire will just amplify the gap between the have and have nots. For example, I haven't read too much into it but the empty homes tax/foreign property buyer tax in Vancouver seem like good steps to take, especially if the proceeds are put towards affordable housing or whatever. If the issue isn't addressed effectively it's not difficult to imagine in the current political climate that anti-fuerdai sentiments in particular and anti-Chinese sentiments will manifest itself in Trumpian ways. It's better that the issue is dealt with in a rational, controlled way rather than giving away to mob mentality.
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Nov 11, 2016 22:26
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GMI, more effective education programs to retraintrain people for work that is available, many things that have already been discussed in this thread. Also, more importantly, better methods to combat the rhetoric. Things are bad, really bad for some, but in a lot of ways they aren't as bad as the rhetoric suggests. More importantly, when you ramp up the rhetoric, you scare and anger people. Once someone is scared, it's very easy to direct their fear and anger in a way that benefits you, even if it harms them further. This is how the right can implement policies that gently caress over the working class and then turn the same people they just hosed over into a weapon against those who would oppose the right in the first place. Combating this is an uphill battle but it's one we have to win. Unfortunately the left is just as prone to implement policies that gently caress over the working class, they just do it while using a different letterhead.
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Nov 11, 2016 22:28
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Legit Businessman fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Sep 9, 2022 |
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Nov 11, 2016 22:57
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rawrr posted:IMO there needs to be regulations in place to target market forces that widen the inequality gap. When the playing field isn't level laissez faire will just amplify the gap between the have and have nots. loving lol is this post even real White trash motherfuckers are buying houses and BMWs with money they don't have. Canadians have never been wealthier in the history of this country
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Nov 11, 2016 23:04
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namaste faggots posted:loving lol is this post even real But they feel anxious, CI. Anxious.
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Nov 11, 2016 23:08
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It's really simple. We aren't evolved enough as a species to handle a civilization as complex as the one we have. It's not really anyone's fault, we're just overwhelmed with responsibility. No reason to stress. Better luck next time humanity! 
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Nov 11, 2016 23:28
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A lot of talk about policies but who the hell wins elections on policy planks? Nobody ever has and nobody ever will. You win on your ability to sell yourself as a leader. Policy might be part of that, it might not. Depends on your pitch. Your great ideas don't mean poo poo if you can't convince people you're capable of implementing them. Most people would rather a leader who steers the ship in the wrong direction than one who doesn't steer at all. One of the biggest challenges for inclusive movements is that when you wait for people to have their say you can be misconstrued as not having the ability to lead. e: the left needs someone to visibly act like a leader (uh, in a very male definition of leadership. a firebrand.) People are open to the possibility of socialism right now if you use a different word to describe what you want to accomplish. They're not open to marginal shifts to the status quo. If I'm getting the Liberals anyway why not just vote for the Liberals? Jordan7hm fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Nov 11, 2016 |
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Nov 11, 2016 23:29
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We're apes that managed to figure out how to build jet aircraft particle accelerators and pills to keep our dicks hard but we did so while retaining all of the animal instincts that work great for a troop of primates but is a really really bad thing for a species that can communicate over any distance at the speed of light and travel anywhere en mass at the speed of sound. And can build nuclear bombs. And all of it powered by the burning of fossil fuels at such a rate that we turned the oceans to acid and filled the air with carbon. We should have stayed in the loving trees, man.
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Nov 11, 2016 23:34
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Well that's helpful. I guess what I want to know is, are racists a protected class now, or are we still allowed to mock them for their ideology? Because "We're all racists, man, it's in our genes" is some  bullshit.Jordan7hm posted:If I'm getting the Liberals anyway why not just vote for the Liberals? I don't know if you noticed, but at least a third of the country did, and another third is the impetus for all this hand wringing. infernal machines fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Nov 11, 2016 |
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Nov 11, 2016 23:37
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EvilJoven posted:We're apes that managed to figure out how to build jet aircraft particle accelerators and pills to keep our dicks hard but we did so while retaining all of the animal instincts that work great for a troop of primates but is a really really bad thing for a species that can communicate over any distance at the speed of light and travel anywhere en mass at the speed of sound. My quality of life is so much better than even my great grandpa's, let alone a wild animal's, that I think posts like this are dumb as hell. I think the same thing about the incessant whining posts about how bad Canada is though. We have it real good compared to the vast majority of the world. We should have it even better, but there is so much pointless whining in this thread.
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Nov 11, 2016 23:38
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infernal machines posted:Well that's helpful. You are not allowed to say racism is bad. That's smug pc tone policing that loses rural votes.
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Nov 11, 2016 23:40
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infernal machines posted:I guess what I want to know is, are racists a protected class now, or are we still allowed to mock them for their ideology? Because "We're all racists, man, it's in our genes" is some Yes let us continue to completely ignore the root causes or our species tendency to work against its own self interests because it's much better to shout back and forth at each other. It's much more productive.
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Nov 12, 2016 00:07
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Dude, read what you just posted.EvilJoven posted:We should have stayed in the loving trees, man. Some sadsack fatalism about the nature of man, because lo, turns out there are still a lot of people who are incredibly racist and it comes out the second they think someone's getting a leg up on them. The thing is there's also a lot of people who manage to avoid that pitfall by realizing that no, the immigrants have not taken their job, dropped the cost of the good they used to produce to the point where no one will pay them to make it, or taken a single crumb out of their mouth. They are at best in the same boat. Excusing racism because it's "instinctual" rather than deriding it because we should expect more from modern first-world society is just the worst kind of bullshit. And making racists comfortable with their lot does not need to be a stepping stone to presenting progressive solutions to class issues.
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Nov 12, 2016 00:20
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infernal machines posted:Well that's helpful. 39% of the 68% who voted tyvm, just over a quarter. Typical white male racist thinking that only people who vote comprise the nation.
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Nov 12, 2016 00:21
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Postess with the Mostest posted:39% of the 68% who voted tyvm, just over a quarter. Typical white male racist thinking that only people who vote comprise the nation. I'm actually innumerate, I'll thank you not to mock my disability.
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Nov 12, 2016 00:22
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Guess Trump really is interested in blowing up trade deals: https://origin-nyi.thehill.com/policy/finance/305668-white-house-gives-up-on-passing-the-tpp Could you have ever predicted that Donald Trump would be the one to kill TPP Helsing? 
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Nov 12, 2016 01:17
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infernal machines posted:Dude, read what you just posted. Yep it's sadsack fatalism to accept the fact that racist tendencies are an unwelcome but still present and deeply rooted aspect of the human condition because accepting that fact is in no way useful in developing effective ways to manage our behaviour as a society to keep people from falling in to those pitfalls in the first place at best and failing that effectively getting people to get back out of them so we can do our best to suppress these tendencies and effectively wipe them out. May as well chock it up to the work of the devil and keep screaming at it louder until it goes away because that definitely kept the population of the richest, most powerful nation on earth at a time where everyone has essentially the entire collected works of all of mankind at their disposal for study and reference from falling in to those pitfalls and electing Donald loving Trump as the next President of the United States of America.
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Nov 12, 2016 02:00
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Maybe the problem was it wasn't screamed loud enough. Other than the "deplorables" comment, which honestly Clinton seemed to walk back on, Trump supporters weren't really properly called out on their racism, nor were CPC supporters in Canada during the last election with the whole niqab stupidity. This election has changed my mind about a few things, and one of them is that racists need to be told loudly and often that they're racists and that it's not welcome in civilized society. It's not a problem to be solved by coddling them until their heart grows THREE sizes that day. Keep reminding them that their bullshit will not be tolerated.
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Nov 12, 2016 02:17
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Lol @ thinking Kellie Leitch has either the charisma or the broad appeal to do anywhere near as much as Trump. If anything I wouldn't be surprised to see the tories break up again if their leadership race goes on too long.
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Nov 12, 2016 02:50
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Agnosticnixie posted:Lol @ thinking Kellie Leitch has either the charisma or the broad appeal to do anywhere near as much as Trump. If anything I wouldn't be surprised to see the tories break up again if their leadership race goes on too long. I mean, I see your point, but how does TRUMP have the charisma and broad appeal of Trump? He sounds like a self-centred delusional elite, in terms of the content of what he says as well as in his accent/speech mannerisms. So who knows what people will read as earnest.
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Nov 12, 2016 03:07
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Agnosticnixie posted:Lol @ thinking Kellie Leitch has either the charisma or the broad appeal to do anywhere near as much as Trump. If anything I wouldn't be surprised to see the tories break up again if their leadership race goes on too long. It's probably a mistake to underestimate these people at this point
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Nov 12, 2016 03:24
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What I dislike about GMI is that it frames the problem and solution in terms of money. I feel that an easier policy sell would be to extend basic human rights to include food and shelter. Why can't the left just really around that flag for a while so we can stomp out one reason that xenophobia sells: people don't like to live in poverty.
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Nov 12, 2016 03:28
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Tighclops posted:It's probably a mistake to underestimate these people at this point We have enough election history in this country alone to prove that a candidate doesn't need experience, charisma, honesty, any of that stuff. Add the States into the mix and you get even more proof.
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Nov 12, 2016 03:31
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sliderule posted:What I dislike about GMI is that it frames the problem and solution in terms of money. I feel that an easier policy sell would be to extend basic human rights to include food and shelter. 1) Because the provision of food and shelter directly is a logistical nightmare compared to sending people a cheque. We need to treat people like adults. If you provide them enough money, they can find food and shelter. Besides, what if you provide free housing, and then the person gets a good job. Do they have to move to free up the free or subsidized housing for someone else? What if the supply of subsidized or free housing isn't matched properly with available jobs? People need to be allowed to make their own choices -- the problem is that they often lack the money to do this, which is why money should be provided to them directly. 2) Because it does nothing to address xenophobia and racism. Look at the demographic breakdown of Trump voters. It wasn't poor white people who elected Trump, and it sure as gently caress wasn't poor people of colour, it was economically comfortable white people who secured his victory. Yeah, it loving sucks to realize we live in a society built on white supremacy, and that's true in Canada just as it is in the US. I've done a lot of thinking about this recently, and it's the inescapable conclusion when you look at the demography of the election, and the reactions afterward. The US election was a vote in support of maintaining white supremacy in the United States, and it was less about poverty than it was about making sure that white people, even those in bad situations, were still better off than people of colour. To quote LBJ: "If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." It's not about poverty, it's about relative economic standing. And the only way we can fix that is by shaming people for being racist.
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Nov 12, 2016 03:45
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sliderule posted:What I dislike about GMI is that it frames the problem and solution in terms of money. I feel that an easier policy sell would be to extend basic human rights to include food and shelter. What it seems to be overlooking is the notion that a job is a source of identity and dignity; it should be sold in a way that's empowering - "achieve your potential" - rather than as welfare/social safety net around which there is still a great deal of social stigma. Hillary actually talks about this in the linkedin interview: quote:Clinton: I have thought about it, quite a bit, because I agree with your projection that the pace of automation is accelerating, the impact on jobs that used to be seen as unlikely, if not impossible, to be done without a human being doing them seems to be in the brink of increasing. So I think this is a serious issue and it needs to be addressed by our government, by business, by education and the like.
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Nov 12, 2016 03:47
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Tighclops posted:It's probably a mistake to underestimate these people at this point I am definitely going to underestimate someone who was a loving unknown in the entire country 2 years ago and still is in large swathes of the country. Most of these big name far right populists have been on the political scene in extremely visible positions one way or another for decades, with the exception being AfD and they'll be lucky if they even get a big enough share of the vote to sit someone in the Bundestag this time around. She's unlikely to make it to the leadership even without wasting time on entryism instead of actually shoring up platforms and making sure your preferred party picks a leader you like (i.e. not Trudeau or Mulcair)
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Nov 12, 2016 04:12
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I really hope kellie leitch starts pandering to immigrants by proposing a ban on LGBT clubs and trans toilet rights loving lol
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Nov 12, 2016 04:25
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rawrr posted:What it seems to be overlooking is the notion that a job is a source of identity and dignity So if there aren't enough jobs to go around, the unemployed don't have a right to dignity? There's more than one way to find identity and purpose, there's no reason to tie it to one's labour. Remove the stigma by normalizing the guaranteed availability of food and shelter. It's a hurdle you'll have to cross with GMI anyways.
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Nov 12, 2016 04:37
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sliderule posted:So if there aren't enough jobs to go around, the unemployed don't have a right to dignity? There's more than one way to find identity and purpose, there's no reason to tie it to one's labour. even if we can figure out universal food & shelter we're not gonna get to a place where people aren't judged on what they have and what they do in our lifetimes
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Nov 12, 2016 04:52
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namaste faggots posted:I really hope kellie leitch starts pandering to immigrants by proposing a ban on LGBT clubs and trans toilet rights You dont need to wait for her to do it, Im sure Patrick Brown will step up first to test out these new crazy waters.
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Nov 12, 2016 04:55
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Agnosticnixie posted:Lol @ thinking Kellie Leitch has either the charisma or the broad appeal to do anywhere near as much as Trump. If anything I wouldn't be surprised to see the tories break up again if their leadership race goes on too long. Tighclops posted:It's probably a mistake to underestimate these people at this point I am not going to even take a chance on underestimating them. Nor should we take a chance with the Liberals or NDP underestimating them. They threaten to unravel the entire social fabric of Canadian society, which is already far too frayed. If we want any chance at all for staying the consequences of global warming or economic inequality, we must deny them even the slightest opportunity to cause any further damage. We have to take 'em out while we still can. And we can only rely on ourselves to do it. Not just Leitch and her constant tempting of racism, but the others too. Bernier would be disastrous for egalitarianism in Canada. Blaney is the bastard who handed us C-51. We have to drag them back to the political centre, kicking and screaming if necessary. They must not go unopposed.
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Nov 12, 2016 05:02
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Hahahaha not even four days running up to be the loving president and the Cheeto is breaking his promises left and right https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2016/11/11/politics/donald-trump-obamacare-interview/index.html?client=safari http://theweek.com/speedreads/661335/newt-gingrich-admits-trump-probably-cant-mexico-pay-wall-but-great-campaign-device http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/11/10/chris-christie-donald-trump-transition-today-show/93582438/ I can only hope that the GOP crashes and burns.
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Nov 12, 2016 05:44
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I found out great news today that I can just get a student loan and go to a Masters program in Canada. So who here has sme good school recommendations??? My degree is in management/ project management / IT
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Nov 12, 2016 05:54
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Excelsiortothemax posted:Hahahaha not even four days running up to be the loving president and the Cheeto is breaking his promises left and right Given all the fact checkers burnt out during the campaign I doubt this will have an impact. I really wonder what would happen if he and Congress did repeal Obamacare completely. On the one hand we have a significant part of the population no longer facing bankruptcy if they get sick, otoh we have people with recent premium increases hitting $1000 per month.  Could be this is just the HMO foxes getting the chickens ready for another raid on the health care henhouse.In Victoria news, pot still illegal. Turns out a "No Minors" sign on the side of your cart isn't sufficient. Who knew?
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Nov 12, 2016 06:54
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Morroque posted:I am not going to even take a chance on underestimating them. Nor should we take a chance with the Liberals or NDP underestimating them. Honestly I'd write off the libs given they ran, successively, an authoritarian and a guy who might as well be.
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Nov 12, 2016 07:02
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rawrr posted:What it seems to be overlooking is the notion that a job is a source of identity and dignity; it should be sold in a way that's empowering - "achieve your potential" - rather than as welfare/social safety net around which there is still a great deal of social stigma. 'Jobs' can be a real source of identity and dignity. This is true. There are a lot of tasks that need to be undertaken in order to keep our society moving forward. Unfortunately, a lot of these tasks don't look good on a quarterly profit report, which is why they aren't adequately funded and the people that undertake them end up being chronically underpaid despite providing such a vital service to their community. Unfortunately, the person that delivered the message you quoted was Hillary Clinton, a corporatist monster that wouldn't even let a poor nation like Haiti boost the minimum wage for workers sewing socks because that wage boost would have cost some billionaire rear end in a top hat Hanes stock holder a half a percent of their yearly dividends so can you please loving not quote Hillary loving Clinton. She lost the election because her progressiveness is a mask she wears to hide the fact that she's a terrible loving human being and when we finally eat the rich I hope she and her husband are still alive so we can prepare them like ikezukuri sashimi.
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Nov 12, 2016 07:32
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vyelkin posted:Also because, as in so many other contexts, we should recognize that our country is stronger when the world is stronger. This is the same reason why we as a country redistribute wealth from one province to another in the form of transfer payments, for example. Our country would be in much poorer shape overall if Alberta was filthy rich and the Maritimes were destitute, and the insecurity in one part of our country would infect the rest of it and drag us all to a lower level of life. I was thinking about this the other day, and it feels almost like the Alberta government continually used transfer payments as like a strawman to distract from all the Redford-style poo poo they were wasting money on. "We can't have $7 daycare because we blew all our money paying for Quebec's!"  *builds skypalace*
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Nov 12, 2016 10:12
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