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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Nah, enrage timers as a metric to show players that they're either/both under-geared/leveled or not doing mechanics correctly is actually a pretty good mechanic if you're trying to teach a player about a combat system. There's definite truth to this. I just watched this a couple days ago where the guy doing the video makes the point even though Dark Souls is a great series of games, Bloodborne is the best first entry because it teaches you how to play the series the "right way" (read: the most fun way) while the other games do not. That said, no matter how much developers work at teaching their players how to play the game, even explicitly just saying "do this, stop doing that," there are some people who just won't get it. "Oh you died on that boss and there was nothing you could do? What about all those unused megalixers in your god damned inventory?"
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Nov 12, 2016 00:27
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though it's been mentioned, it would have been more forgiveable if they had given a timer at the start instead of waiting twenty minutes to have the boss cast doom. it's just kind of a dick move.
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Nov 12, 2016 04:27
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morallyobjected posted:though it's been mentioned, it would have been more forgiveable if they had given a timer at the start instead of waiting twenty minutes to have the boss cast doom. it's just kind of a dick move. Why would they have a 20+ Minute timer on every single boss fight in a game when you're playing like the system wants you can still at least 1 star finish at 7 mins into the fight? Putting an open long timer would tell the player "Hey we expect it to possibly take this much time!" and that is just gonna teach the player turtling up is fine and good and not really lovely and non-viable
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Nov 12, 2016 04:35
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Why would they have a 20+ Minute timer on every single boss fight in a game when you're playing like the system wants you can still at least 1 star finish at 7 mins into the fight? Putting an open long timer would tell the player "Hey we expect it to possibly take this much time!" and that is just gonna teach the player turtling up is fine and good and not really lovely and non-viable it's like three bosses. you're free to do whatever on most bosses in the whole game, so waiting twenty minutes on a few of them means you can potentially waste that time since there's no indication at the beginning. Final Fantasy ia generally good about letting you play suboptimally if you really want to (like how you can take breaks fighting Yiazmat and the Hell Wyrm if you really want to fight them early and under leveled).
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Nov 12, 2016 04:57
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morallyobjected posted:Final Fantasy ia generally good about letting you play suboptimally if you really want to. Yeah and the fact that 13 isn't and has a really focused gameplay design is kind of what this whole conversation was about.
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Nov 12, 2016 04:57
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Reiterpallasch posted:the enrage timer is supposed to be a warning sign that you're not engaging with the (fantastic) combat system in an unfun way that you're not supposed to. if you're actually hitting enrage on any non-postgame fight you are literally doing a quarter or so of the dps even basic play would get you, and this is pretty much a hard fact because of the way the crystarium works. I guess the developers made the mistake of assuming the players of its game had a modicum of intelligence lol
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Nov 12, 2016 05:21
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*playing FFXIII for 20 hours getting 1 or 2 stars on every fight and then dying after 20 minutes on one boss* gently caress this game !
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Nov 12, 2016 05:23
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I feel like at this point I need to buy XIII just to have my own informed opinion on it. ...And probably XIII-3, because what little I've seen of it seems to be 'Things Cleretic Likes: The Game' only with Lightning as a protagonist instead of someone like Faris (and even then...). But at the same time I'm playing FFXIV, and I still havent' even started Tales of Symphonia. Why do I have to be a fan of the most ridiculously long-form game genres?
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Nov 12, 2016 05:27
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I actually got to a story boss after playing for about 8 hours since the last one and killed in less than a minute (Dahaka) I think I might have ended up a bit overlevelled lol. Oh yeah that reminds me does the enemy's level actually mean anything because it seems completely random. Sakurazuka fucked around with this message at 05:53 on Nov 12, 2016 |
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Nov 12, 2016 05:49
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Cleretic posted:I feel like at this point I need to buy XIII just to have my own informed opinion on it. ...And probably XIII-3, because what little I've seen of it seems to be 'Things Cleretic Likes: The Game' only with Lightning as a protagonist instead of someone like Faris (and even then...). Tales of Symphonia is pretty skippable if you've played any of the good Tales games that came out after. It's kind of a step backwards in every way.
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Nov 12, 2016 05:56
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Tales of Symphonia is pretty skippable if you've played any of the good Tales games that came out after. It's kind of a step backwards in every way. I haven't, all I really know it as is that Gamecube JRPG everyone seemed to like that I could never find at the time.
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Nov 12, 2016 05:58
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Sakurazuka posted:I actually got to a story boss after playing for about 8 hours since the last one and killed in less than a minute (Dahaka) I think I might have ended up a bit overlevelled lol. Enemy level mostly affects the target time and is completely arbitrary.
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Nov 12, 2016 06:03
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Cleretic posted:I haven't, all I really know it as is that Gamecube JRPG everyone seemed to like that I could never find at the time. I recommend Tales of the Abyss or Xillia over it to be honest. Symphonia is kind of a 'modern take on classic Tales' and is okay but not very...robust in any way. Even plot and characters kind of fail to grab you.
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Nov 12, 2016 06:08
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Abyss and Xillia are good, Symphonia hasn't aged well. In related news I just started Zestiria and that is noooooot a good game.
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Nov 12, 2016 06:33
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Arist posted:In related news I just started Zestiria and that is noooooot a good game.  I've always been on the fence for getting it and I constantly hear mixed things. I'm not expecting Abyss or Vesperia quality, but it'd be nice to play a newer tales game (on PC) that's closer to them in quality and not something like Legendia or Symphonia 2. Abyss will always be good because Jade will never stop being the best Tales character. 
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Nov 12, 2016 06:44
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Evil Fluffy posted:
The combat feels really bad, for one. It's got a lot of weirdly complicated nuances that aren't a lot of fun to mess around with, but they've also really screwed with the basic progression systems and none of it feels good at all. Also the writing is insanely cutesy and self-aware and it's incredibly annoying. I've got five party members right now and I outright despise two of them, which is really bad.
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Nov 12, 2016 06:51
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If you want a PC Tales game you're best off waiting for Berseria. It's not perfect, but unlike Zestiria it's a finished videogame.
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Nov 12, 2016 06:56
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Why would they have a 20+ Minute timer on every single boss fight in a game when you're playing like the system wants you can still at least 1 star finish at 7 mins into the fight? Putting an open long timer would tell the player "Hey we expect it to possibly take this much time!" and that is just gonna teach the player turtling up is fine and good and not really lovely and non-viable Also pretty sure you can reset or pause the Doom timer by summoning an Eidolon, too.
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Nov 12, 2016 07:27
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Cleretic posted:I feel like at this point I need to buy XIII just to have my own informed opinion on it. ...And probably XIII-3, because what little I've seen of it seems to be 'Things Cleretic Likes: The Game' only with Lightning as a protagonist instead of someone like Faris (and even then...). You should play XIII-2 because it's the best one. bloodychill posted:That said, no matter how much developers work at teaching their players how to play the game, even explicitly just saying "do this, stop doing that," there are some people who just won't get it. "Oh you died on that boss and there was nothing you could do? What about all those unused megalixers in your god damned inventory?" Every good gamer/sperglord knows you'll need those later. I believe absolutely in the "Too Good to Use" club of items. Maybe if I know I'm fighting the final boss those Megalixirs can be used but even then....
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Nov 12, 2016 08:21
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NikkolasKing posted:You should play XIII-2 because it's the best one.* *If you like the same 4 puzzles repeated for a 40 hour RPG and for every combat including the games bosses and optional fights to be massively brain dead even for FF fight standards.
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Nov 12, 2016 08:53
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NikkolasKing posted:You should play XIII-2 because it's the best one. I'm not falling for this one, I watched a full LP of XIII-2, I know it's just Dumb Chrono Trigger!
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Nov 12, 2016 09:26
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I mean if you boil them down to their plots XIII-2 probably is the best.  But that's not at all why you should be playing an FFXIII game.
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Nov 12, 2016 09:32
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:*If you like the same 4 puzzles repeated for a 40 hour RPG and for every combat including the games bosses and optional fights to be massively brain dead even for FF fight standards. Because running down a hallway for 40 hours is so much more enthralling. Also the monster recruitment and growth system allows for a poo poo ton more variety in combat than XIII's system. As for LR, the lack of Lightning is one reason I love XIII-2 so much.
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Nov 12, 2016 11:02
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Variety is wasted on XIII-2 because the level curve is totally hosed, in your favour. I've always thought it was kinda odd that you of all posters, the advocator for difficulty mods, was the one who championed it, to be honest.
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Nov 12, 2016 11:08
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AlphaKretin posted:Variety is wasted on XIII-2 because the level curve is totally hosed, in your favour. I've always thought it was kinda odd that you of all posters, the advocator for difficulty mods, was the one who championed it, to be honest. Well it's an easy game but the reason I use difficulty mods is because pretty much every FF game is too easy so singling out XIII-2 be pretty odd. XIII-2 has other things I like about it besides gameplaye challenges. XIII is the hardest Final Fantasy I've beaten but I would not describe it as "fun."
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Nov 12, 2016 11:15
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God my dads are so gay
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Nov 12, 2016 11:30
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NikkolasKing posted:Because running down a hallway for 40 hours is so much more enthralling. Also the monster recruitment and growth system allows for a poo poo ton more variety in combat than XIII's system. And none of that variety matters because you can just faceroll the entire game with no monster, focusing on that subsystem just breaks the game more. LR is the only FF13 game worth playing and beats the other two in terms of gameplay and setting and story. Saying 13-2 is the best of the three because you install some poo poo difficulty mod is not a real point and kinda dumb imo.
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Nov 12, 2016 11:33
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NikkolasKing posted:Well it's an easy game but the reason I use difficulty mods is because pretty much every FF game is too easy so singling out XIII-2 be pretty odd. XIII-2 has other things I like about it besides gameplaye challenges. What about FFIIIDS? Also FFIVDS is a pretty hard iteration, too.
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Nov 12, 2016 11:59
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FFIIIDS isn't hard, it's just bad. There's a difference. A hard game can be completed with skill and memorization alone. A bad game is easy for one person and unbearably tough for someone else because the RNG made every turn play out in the order you needed them to, or because the RNG rolled such that your healer acted first, and then the boss dropped three spells in a row that did 4000 damage to everyone in your party every time it was cast in a game where the HP cap is 9999.
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Nov 12, 2016 12:06
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Bards are definitely the underrated gem in FFIIIDS. Songs are very powerful in that game (Elegy is a 20+% reduction from all damage for two rounds, which is huge), and more importantly, their ability to always go first gives them so much reliability. After Saronia I ran with double Bards as my only healers and didn't have trouble until the final dungeon where I finally had to use a Devout. Not to deny that FFIIIDS has some terrible balance issues (Garuda is still one of the worst bosses they ever did), but there are ways to minimize some of the later game RNG.
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Nov 12, 2016 12:29
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XIII-2 wins because it has Chronobind. IIRC I found 3DS Bards tedious because of having to switch their weapons every round, but they're easily one of the better jobs in that game. Buffing the poo poo jobs from the original like Bard and Geomancer was one of the few improvements that game had.
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Nov 12, 2016 12:56
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:And none of that variety matters because you can just faceroll the entire game with no monster, focusing on that subsystem just breaks the game more. I never played the XIII-2 difficulty mod. I have a poo poo computer that can't run anything. And I can't stand LR's story. Not only do I just not care about Clair, its villain is the worst in the whole series. I would say Caius is the only good antagonist in the series as he has proper presence and explained motivation. ApplesandOranges posted:What about FFIIIDS? I've never beaten IVDS. As for 3DS, it really does sometimes come down to luck, just as TWD said. I still liked the game but take the boss right before the second crystal. Salamander I think it was. That fight is just not fair if he uses his Fire Breath twice in a row. My first run, I ran the game with a Red Mage, White Mage and Monk for most of it, only experimenting with one other character. I tried Dark Knight, which was poo poo because Souleater is a bad move in a game like this, and some other magic jobs. I eventaully settled on Dragoon. Everyone warned me off Scholar although I hear it can be broken if done right. If I ever play through the game again, I will make sure to give Bard a try, as well as Summoner and the weaker version of Summoner. I actually liked the weaker version more because Summoner only does dmage while the earlier job can heal and debuff and stuff. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 13:05 on Nov 12, 2016 |
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Nov 12, 2016 13:03
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I'd also say that FFV is a pretty hard game, it's just a really self-aware hard. FFV knows that it's got a huge power scale, and that you can turn basically any tool in your arsenal into a death machine if you know how to use it properly. And so it compensates by really not pulling its punches and being perfectly willing to just gently caress you right the hell up if you don't do the same to it first. It doesn't feel that difficult to us now, because the key to doing well at FFV is knowledge; we know Chemist is broken, we know Zeninage can gently caress up the otherwise pretty tough crystals boss, we know Spellblade, Dual Wield and Rapid Fire work together obscenely well. But if you don't have that knowledge you'll get your face pushed in quite readily by its endgame.
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Nov 12, 2016 13:12
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I remember getting stuck on a boss in FFV for ages until I realised it was undead and you could just kill it with a phoenix down lol. That was also the game where I finally started using buffs and stuff, when I noticed using Haste was often the difference between failure and winning.
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Nov 12, 2016 13:41
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Enjoying FF13 again now I'm making steady progress drat that initial entrance to Pulse was a vertical cliff for a while. My bame is still packs of 4+ enemies, even if they're weak individually they tend to gang up on my leader while I'm still casting buffs so I don't bother anymore and just focus on reducing their numbers straight away.
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Nov 12, 2016 17:03
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Sakurazuka posted:Enjoying FF13 again now I'm making steady progress drat that initial entrance to Pulse was a vertical cliff for a while. My bame is still packs of 4+ enemies, even if they're weak individually they tend to gang up on my leader while I'm still casting buffs so I don't bother anymore and just focus on reducing their numbers straight away. Hell of an entrance for Pulse though, it's a very striking and beautiful reveal after the hours of techno corridors and forests
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Nov 12, 2016 17:10
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:And none of that variety matters because you can just faceroll the entire game with no monster, focusing on that subsystem just breaks the game more. LR is way better than FF13 especially in terms of gameplay  e: i read gud CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Nov 12, 2016 |
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Nov 12, 2016 17:16
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In Training posted:Hell of an entrance for Pulse though, it's a very striking and beautiful reveal after the hours of techno corridors and forests Yeah I'm actually really liking the weird desolate post-apoc feeling of maybe being the only people alive down there. An entire world populated by dangerous wildlife, failed L'Cie and unknowable robot gods, feels almost similar to Nier.
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Nov 12, 2016 17:28
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:LR is way better than FF13 especially in terms of gameplay he agrees with you bud i liked 13-1 the best but thats cause im just bad, horribly bad, at 13-3 combat
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Nov 12, 2016 17:30
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I think I've said it before but there are very few concepts in FF13 that are bad, it's almost entirely execution. If the linearity of Cocoon had been handled in a way that made people less antsy then Pulse's freedom and desolation would have been a much more impactful element than it already was.
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