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big juicy nectarine posted:But Hillary's continued actions overseas were going to blow up in our face through domestic terrorism here, and that just ratchets up the xenophobia which leads to Trumps. The DNC was going to have to have a reckoning about their foreign policy eventually, and Bernie really didn't do enough about that conversation. bernie's foreign policy knowledge was actually really good and the fact he gleefully poo poo on Henry Kissinger and brought up US involvement with the Mossadagh coup on a nationally broadcast debate was loving inspiring too bad he couldn't penetrate the powerful meme of "hillary clinton knows all the foreign policy because she relies the same horrifying advisors the Republican neocons do"
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Nov 12, 2016 06:22
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Had a spat on FB with a professor who posted this article because I said it was condescending garbage. I am leaving academia at a perfect time to do so. "I’m a Coastal Elite From the Midwest: The Real Bubble is Rural America" "We, as a culture, have to stop infantilizing and deifying rural and white working-class Americans. Their experience is not more of a real American experience than anyone else’s, but when we say that it is, we give people a pass from seeing and understanding more of their country. More Americans need to see more of the United States. They need to shake hands with a Muslim, or talk soccer with a middle aged lesbian, or attend a lecture by a female business executive." Lol "Here's what went wrong in 2016: not enough rubes going to see Sheryl Sandberg speak."
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Nov 12, 2016 06:22
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Phobophilia posted:there was a line, pushed by the alt right and kremlin trolls, that clinton = war with russia it's not an 'alt-right' line to be wary of confrontation with an increasingly paranoid and desperate nuclear power over something they consider a vital strategic interest. the person i know who was most 'holy poo poo, what did she just say??' about the no-fly-zone talk was a socialist with an IR masters. you're absolutely right that the trumpeters who thought he'd be any way less hawkish were delusional though. with regard to dem rebuilding though, be prepared for an anti-military line to be difficult to push. one of the strongest demonisations of corbyn is based on his deviating from established foreign policy, and there's jobs as well as profits wrapped up in the war industry. but it's hard to say too much when trump is possibly about to throw everything into chaos
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Nov 12, 2016 06:22
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Just because toppling a dictator with no plan and no follow up is bad doesn't mean dictators are good. 
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Nov 12, 2016 06:24
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Fidel Castronaut posted:Had a spat on FB with a professor who posted this article because I said it was condescending garbage. I am leaving academia at a perfect time to do so. i'm sure they'll compensate them the costs of visiting their big city to enlighten them, since these voters can't afford to take a vacation to the next loving county over never mind the coastal cities
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Nov 12, 2016 06:26
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Fullhouse posted:bernie's foreign policy knowledge was actually really good and the fact he gleefully poo poo on Henry Kissinger and brought up US involvement with the Mossadagh coup on a nationally broadcast debate was loving inspiring He also needed to go after more recent decisions of hers than the Iraq War, like the Syrian missile strike that she had to backtrack from talking crap on Obama for. But he always shied away because he wasn't playing for keeps quite like she was, which, don't get me started there.
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Nov 12, 2016 06:26
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OAquinas posted:Yes, because the structural failure of the democratic state parties, House and Senate delegations, and the disaffected low income and minority voters was because they felt Clinton was too interventionalist. It was, nonetheless, on the priority list. It is relevant and worth discussion. Clinton lost this election by incredibly low margins, which means that absolutely everything mattered.
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Nov 12, 2016 06:26
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mrmcd posted:hot take: Just because getting baited into disastrous military interventions in the middle east is bad, that doesn't make Gaddafi and Assad cool and good socialist champions of the little guy. I literally don't think a single person is arguing that. The only thing argued is that the Obama administration has been involved in a lot of messy conflicts, which has made the world seem incredibly unstable and dangerous and has left a giant flank open for people to feel anxious about. I don't think a single goddamn person in this thread thinks Assad is a good person. I, for one, hope he falls into a mulcher. I also don't think a single goddamn person in this thread thinks Gaddafi was a cool guy. But in the wake of an Obama presidency, we have on top of a tricky domestic situation, a world with lots of really weird wars that we're involved in one way or another.
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Nov 12, 2016 06:26
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Larry Parrish posted:The average citizen does not care about foreign wars except that they seem to consume resources many feel would be better spent domestically. Also democracy and freedom and humanitarian aide doesn't fall out of the bottom of a F-16 yet there still people on the left and right who keep trying to convince us of this!
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Nov 12, 2016 06:28
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"We shouldn't be getting involved in foreign conflicts that only seem to make things worse" is an easy sell for the American people for exactly that reason. People flipped the house in 2006 because they hated the war. It's absolutely important to be anti war for this reason.
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Nov 12, 2016 06:29
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Peel posted:there's a good argument that the comey letter and their hyping of it is an immediate cause of trump's victory lol
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Nov 12, 2016 06:30
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Assad is a monster. I have no idea what Trump thinks of the Kurds.
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Nov 12, 2016 06:31
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Zikan posted:i'm sure they'll compensate them the costs of visiting their big city to enlighten them, since these voters can't afford to take a vacation to the next loving county over never mind the coastal cities That was basically my response. Who the gently caress can afford to enrich themselves with cosmopolitan experiences when they only give you 35 hours a week at Walmart so that they don't have to give you benefits? Everybody in my department is walking around in shell-shock because we know that academia, especially the humanities, are hosed and part of me is like "Good, you never learned how to talk to people other than each other. Eat poo poo."
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Nov 12, 2016 06:31
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Fidel Castronaut posted:Had a spat on FB with a professor who posted this article because I said it was condescending garbage. I am leaving academia at a perfect time to do so. The idea that our culture somehow deifies rural and white working classes is so mind bogglingly idiotic it's hard to express. Almost everything in popular media is about hip urbanites living lives of either privileged excess, or crushing despair. The last time I ever saw anything portraying rural white folks in a positive light was Leaves of Grass.
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Nov 12, 2016 06:32
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Nonsense posted:Assad is a monster. I have no idea what Trump thinks of the Kurds. "the who and the what now?"
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Nov 12, 2016 06:32
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Nonsense posted:Assad is a monster. I have no idea what Trump thinks of the Kurds.
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Nov 12, 2016 06:33
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OAquinas posted:It was one of the cleaner interventions in contemporary US history. That it went to poo poo afterwards is another issue. turns out that if you knock out a country's central government the resulting chaos kills more people than said government but atleast the Bad Man™ is gone
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Nov 12, 2016 06:33
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Fidel Castronaut posted:Had a spat on FB with a professor who posted this article because I said it was condescending garbage. I am leaving academia at a perfect time to do so. It's not wrong? Rurals have to deal with the lovely hand of being low population (so low infrastructure spending), braindrain of kids leaving for the cities in search of jobs, and being "flyover country" that no one thinks about. That same isolating distance means they can avoid thinking about people living differently. This is only reinforced by their feeling set upon by their situation (and maybe a variable dollop of ingrained racism/xenophobia). Gaining exposure to different ideas and meeting people and realizing that they're good and bad, just like the folks back home could be a Good Thing. Of course, urban dwellers have to get over the idea that people who live in the countryside are ignorant hayseeds that may be confused by electronics, fashion, or exotic cuisine. These are people too, and just because they may do more physical labor doesn't mean they're less intelligent or less capable, and they deserve a seat at the table just as much as the minority socialist lesbian down the street. The divide existed for centuries before her, but gently caress Palin for branding one side "Real America." That did no one any favors in bridging things. I'm not saying that sponsoring or mandating field trips back and forth is a viable solution, but I think getting exposure and understanding--on both sides--would help remedy things a bit. resar posted:turns out that if you knock out a country's central government the resulting chaos kills more people than said government but atleast the Bad Man™ is gone There is that, true. So new party plank: treat all future situations like we did Rwanda. Edit: VVVV Yeah. When you're touting loving Kissinger that was...not smart. At all. OAquinas has issued a correction as of 06:38 on Nov 12, 2016 |
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Nov 12, 2016 06:35
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Fullhouse posted:bernie's foreign policy knowledge was actually really good and the fact he gleefully poo poo on Henry Kissinger and brought up US involvement with the Mossadagh coup on a nationally broadcast debate was loving inspiring This was so infuriating; the rubric in which the press and the party uses to grade the 'seriousness' of a candidate is monstrously bloodthirsty. The touting of Kissinger and other Republican neocons was one of the absolute worst decisions for the DNC; it didn't counter any of Trump's claims she was a warhawk, even though his own stances were suspect. Any evidence to confirm the narrative made it that much harder, especially since one of the reasons she lost in 2008 was the Iraq War vote.
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Nov 12, 2016 06:36
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Zikan posted:"the who and the what now?" I don't like the kurds. I'd rather have a Big Mac.
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Nov 12, 2016 06:39
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zen death robot posted:Donald "bomb the poo poo out of em/gotta be unpredictable with nukes" Trump kinda takes the wind out of the sails on Americans giving a poo poo about a President having a hawkish foreign policy stance. Bing Bing Bong. Exactly. About the only credible FP plus for him is reduced tensions with Russia and Erdogan, and that's only because he'll be their useful idiot tool. zen death robot posted:I mean a few posters here may care a lot but it just doesn't resonate with average Americans who wanted a president to lie to them about bringing jobs back from China. That's my point. She didn't lose Penn, Michigan, and Wisconsin over this. It certainly didn't help her, but there are more proximate causes for failure. Obama was roundly criticized for FP in 2012 (already had the Red Line failure and Libya) but he still won very comfortably. OAquinas has issued a correction as of 06:43 on Nov 12, 2016 |
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Nov 12, 2016 06:41
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zen death robot posted:Donald "bomb the poo poo out of em/gotta be unpredictable with nukes" Trump kinda takes the wind out of the sails on Americans giving a poo poo about a President having a hawkish foreign policy stance. On the other hand, inconceivably low Democratic turnout across the board from every demographic. It mattered. [quote="OAquinas" post=""466381873"] There is that, true. So new party plank: treat all future situations like we did Rwanda. Edit: VVVV Yeah. When you're touting loving Kissinger that was...not smart. At all. [/quote] Oh come the gently caress on. Rwanda was an active genocide being carried out in real time, which we refused to do anything about. The Tutsi had to organize their own militias to drive the genocidaires into Congo. There was never any kind of genocide or the threat of one going on in Libya or Syria. It's pre-emptive war principle with a coat of humanitarian paint.
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Nov 12, 2016 06:42
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:The idea that our culture somehow deifies rural and white working classes is so mind bogglingly idiotic it's hard to express. Almost everything in popular media is about hip urbanites living lives of either privileged excess, or crushing despair. The last time I ever saw anything portraying rural white folks in a positive light was Leaves of Grass. Even crushing despair in urban settings is pretty rare. Shows like Sanford and Son, Taxi, and Cheers are long gone, so the working class is rarely shown. If they are, they sure aren't in their workplace. I was spoiled as a kid to have Roseanne airing so that I could go "Hey, they are like my folks!" OAquinas posted:It's not wrong? I don't disagree that cultural exposure is valuable and makes it more difficult to let populations die without concern. I have always thought that my uncle would be less Islamophobic if he spent just a couple weeks with me in Dearborn. But the author seems to be a condescending poo poo when he locates his own introduction to gay folks as one being a college roommate. He doesn't seem to recognize that he enjoyed the privilege of attending college which served as the catalyst for new cultural experiences and which is out of reach for large swaths of middle-America. He sets up a really banal observation "They don't know Muslims and that is why they hate them" and then provides no proposal other than "We shouldn't baby them. They really should meet some Muslims." Great. How are we going to do that?
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Nov 12, 2016 06:44
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Nov 12, 2016 06:44
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OAquinas posted:
pull out peacekeepers that are already there? not sure what you mean by that The_Politics_Man has issued a correction as of 06:46 on Nov 12, 2016 |
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Nov 12, 2016 06:44
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Strong electable Jebuela It would have been nice to pressure France about Rwanda when it occurred, but Bill did nothing.
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Nov 12, 2016 06:46
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I considered being one of them but then I thought I would feel like a real dummy if my faith in Michigan going blue was too naive. Welp.
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Nov 12, 2016 06:47
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resar posted:pull out peacekeepers that are already there? not sure what your mean by that No intervention, no risk of failure, let the chips fall as they may. Not our problem. That's the acceptable position that I'm reading here, yes? Either go in and fully annex the area (or effectively do so while installing a govt and getting it off the ground) or don't do anything at all.
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Nov 12, 2016 06:49
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I wonder how viable it would be to just annex an area these days and not see a hell of a lot of poo poo heading towards the invaders way. I also wonder if Trump will let Putin have the rest of the Ukraine? I don't think Germany will like Russia leaving the confines of Kaliningrad.
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Nov 12, 2016 06:50
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Fidel Castronaut posted:Even crushing despair in urban settings is pretty rare. Shows like Sanford and Son, Taxi, and Cheers are long gone, so the working class is rarely shown. If they are, they sure aren't in their workplace. I was spoiled as a kid to have Roseanne airing so that I could go "Hey, they are like my folks!" I was a Grace Under Fire kid myself. A show about a working white mother gave me a lifelong love for Earth, Wind, & Fire
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Nov 12, 2016 06:53
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:I was a Grace Under Fire kid myself. There was an exchange in the Trump thread, long after I had bent the knee to Hillary, where you were being dogpiled and I considered saying something because people were being lovely and smug and self-satisfied but I wanted to be cool with the cool kids. I regretted that all the way up until I found out that you preferred the Matchbox cars version of Roseanne's Hot Wheels.
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Nov 12, 2016 06:54
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Fidel Castronaut posted:There was an exchange in the Trump thread, long after I had bent the knee to Hillary, where you were being dogpiled and I considered saying something because people were being lovely and smug and self-satisfied but I wanted to be cool with the cool kids. I regretted that all the way up until I found out that you preferred the Matchbox cars version of Roseanne's Hot Wheels. I was also... a SEGA KID
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Nov 12, 2016 06:59
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OAquinas posted:No intervention, no risk of failure, let the chips fall as they may. Not our problem. more or less. if the UN wants the US to supply troops for a peacekeeping mission then by all means send them. Send humanitarian aid to the people there. Going in half cocked not knowing the probable result of intervention is a recipe for a bad situation to get much much worse. history has shown that time and time again.
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Nov 12, 2016 07:01
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OAquinas posted:No intervention, no risk of failure, let the chips fall as they may. Not our problem. Generally the issue with intervening militarily in another nation is you become responsible for it; for example if you just go in and topple a dictator without planning for the aftermath and being ready to invest significant money and American lives and time you just walk away with a power vacuum. This is particularly problematic in regions with a lot of ethnic hostilities because it tends to lead to whatever group was being oppressed turning around and trying to ethnically cleanse the other side in retaliation / vengeance. Everyone agrees Assad is a prick who should go, but if you just cruise missile his house with him in it the whole country could go into an even deeper civil war or fracture entirely if no one group can take over in his stead. That's not to say it can't be done, but it's politically not feasible to get the commitment you would need to do it right, and even if you do it right it's still risky as hell. This Onion tidbit feels relevant:  Anyway, I genuinely find foreign policy to be lower on my priorities list where Dems are concerned going forward than most domestic topics because foreign policy seems to be choosing between eating poo poo because you did something and eating poo poo because you didn't do something. I imagine most Americans would want us to help other countries where we can, but there's a reason people argue for less foreign aid even though it's a vanishingly small part of the budget, and it's because their domestic needs are nowhere close to being met. They want us to fix our own home before we go trying to fix the world, and it's hard to disagree with the basic notion.
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Nov 12, 2016 07:02
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Nonsense posted:I wonder how viable it would be to just annex an area these days and not see a hell of a lot of poo poo heading towards the invaders way. I also wonder if Trump will let Putin have the rest of the Ukraine? I don't think Germany will like Russia leaving the confines of Kaliningrad. I think Trump will make a deal with Putin and Assad. America will recognize Crimea as Russian territory and Russia/Syria will recognize the Golan Heights as Israeli. The Neocons used to be Democrats, and they are fleeing back into the Democratic party, so I don't expect their foreign policy to change all that much.
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Nov 12, 2016 07:02
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Larry Parrish posted:The average citizen does not care about foreign wars except that they seem to consume resources many feel would be better spent domestically.
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Nov 12, 2016 07:04
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Again the most salient point. The fact that Donald Trump is loving everything up and not us is just extra.
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Nov 12, 2016 07:07
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Mo_Steel posted:
Exactly. FP is messy, ugly, outside of war or disaster not on anyone's priority list, and just generally bad. It's also entirely the purview of the President. So until we start looking at candidates, not much point discussing it aside to put a pin in "maybe not pick anyone who agrees with loving Kissinger." MicronAle posted:I think Trump will make a deal with Putin and Assad. America will recognize Crimea as Russian territory and Russia/Syria will recognize the Golan Heights as Israeli. You think we'll get anything for ending the Crimea-inspired sanctions outside of a photo op? Optimist! It'll be the Best Deal though, you'll see.
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Nov 12, 2016 07:10
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i was curious on how flint michigan voted since it's kind of the prime example of rust belt deindustralization so i looked up the numbersquote:Michigan 2016 i then realized i had never seen what it looks like now so i watched this video of a guy driving through his old neighborhood. it's unrecognizable from his childhood back in 2002. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKQSPJWK5w0 this whole thing is depressing
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Nov 12, 2016 07:10
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People don't usually make political decisions based on singular factors unless they're single issue voters. It's always a combination of issues that inform their decisions. I was never really a Bernie or Buster, but I didn't see much point in voting for Clinton. Arkansas isn't a swing state, and Clinton has an awful foreign policy coupled with a shallow commitment to domestic issues. Why bother? I voted for Evan McMullin because there weren't any socialists on the ballot. I could just as well not have voted at all. A thought, I'm sure, plenty of people had in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania.
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Nov 12, 2016 07:18
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