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Rexicon1 posted:Don't loving condescend me you loving coward. I'm on your side 100% but you are lashing out in this thread and others. I understand where you are coming from and I'm trying to find solutions to a problem. You are running around pissing everywhere and making idle threats. Yeah, bye now. You can take your little grudges elsewhere. This ain't the thread for it.
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Nov 12, 2016 21:49
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negromancer posted:Yeah, bye now. Fair enough.
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Nov 12, 2016 21:52
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Literally everyone on SA who is not a constructive contributor to this thread is saying that Trump won not because of racism but because of liberal smugness and how fat Lena Dunham is. So the only constructive posters are those who agree with you, got it. Trump did indeed get all the racist votes, and that helped him. But anyone with an (R) next to their name was going to get those votes. Mitt Romney got those votes, John McCain got those votes. They didn't win. Hillary lost because a very large number of people did not trust her. Not all of that was her fault, not all of it was fair or true, but that doesn't matter at all.
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Nov 12, 2016 22:29
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FuturePastNow posted:So the only constructive posters are those who agree with you, got it. You don't believe that an openly racist candidate might have stirred up additional racism? Or that Republicans continuing to support presidential candidates who engage in overt racism might be an indicator of how much of a major American party is built on white supremacy? Like, I get that economic anxieties were key here, but you also have to remember that Trump and the Republicans channeled that economic anxiety into racism. Remember that most people primarily concerned about the economy voted Democrat, but most people primarily concerned about immigration voted Republican. Now, anti-immigrant anxiety is very often a result of scapegoating of economic fears ('I don't have a job' becomes 'they took my jobs'), but it still translates into non-white people getting beaten up.
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Nov 12, 2016 22:38
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FuturePastNow posted:So the only constructive posters are those who agree with you, got it. Swing and a miss, douchebag. You've got the run of new alt-right flavor SA if you want to pull this poo poo. If you're posting here you're going to need to employ reading comprehension.
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Nov 12, 2016 22:38
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White Brit here: The C-SPAM thread will nod in assent if you remind people about racism and how they mustn't compromise on fighting it, but it definitely feels like it vanishes from the thread's collective mind the moment it stops being pushed into the conversation.
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Nov 12, 2016 22:38
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FuturePastNow posted:So the only constructive posters are those who agree with you, got it. And for those people the very tangible threat to black people, muslims, other POC, the queer community, and women that Trump represented was not of enough concern to at least step up and try and prevent the known bad option from taking power. I'm sorry you didn't trust Hillary not to do whatever the current paranoia was, but "not openly racist and calling for purges" should have been enough to get you to do the right thing. This is on your head.
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Nov 12, 2016 22:39
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This mentality of "hi I think of myself as a human being" "Oh you're so entitled demanding everyone AGREE with you" everything is equal truth is in the middle bullshit is exactly what got us here. Sometimes both sides aren't equally bad. Sometimes two opinions aren't equally valid. Sometimes there's such a thing as right and wrong.Peel posted:White Brit here: The C-SPAM thread will nod in assent if you remind people about racism and how they mustn't compromise on fighting it, but it definitely feels like it vanishes from the thread's collective mind the moment it stops being pushed into the conversation. C-SPAM is only more of the same. C-SPAM is the white comfort zone USPOL wanted to be before it was taken over by the exact people all the minorities were being so uppity about.
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Nov 12, 2016 22:40
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FuturePastNow posted:So the only constructive posters are those who agree with you, got it. Kindly gently caress off.
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Nov 12, 2016 22:40
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FuturePastNow posted:So the only constructive posters are those who agree with you, got it. I think the point is that your vote is your voice and the majority of Americans used that to say that they don't care about women, minorities, or LGBT people enough to vote against a candidate who promised to do everything he could to make their lives more dangerous and difficult. You can call it apathy in the case of those who didn't vote if you want, but that's still the message America sent to those groups I mentioned above.
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Nov 12, 2016 22:43
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e: man too slow, this was for FuturePastNow. gently caress off mate, white people voted in racism, own it. Seriously though, there's so much hand wringing about demographic voting because of voluntary voting in America. I'm used to Australia where it's mandatory to vote, so polling stations are created to meet 100% demand, and the Australian Electoral Commission takes its job seriously. We're still racist as gently caress, and that bears out in what parties get elected (although the minority party is growing), but at least we're not enabling the tools that prevent so called liberals from seeing the demographics for what they are. White people turned up in droves to vote in a racist as gently caress president, party & policy base. Own it.
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Nov 12, 2016 22:45
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:C-SPAM is only more of the same. C-SPAM is the white comfort zone USPOL wanted to be before it was taken over by the exact people all the minorities were being so uppity about. There's a continual current of 'you mustn't look down on people for voting Trump' combined with the occasional outright statement that voting Trump was justifiable. It's frustrating. I'll leave off derailing this thread here though.
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Nov 12, 2016 22:47
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Maluco Marinero posted:gently caress off mate, white people voted in racism, own it. Seriously though, there's so much hand wringing about demographic voting because of voluntary voting in America. I'm used to Australia where it's mandatory to vote, so polling stations are created to meet 100% demand, and the Australian Electoral Commission takes its job seriously. We're still racist as gently caress, and that bears out in what parties get elected (although the minority party is growing), but at least we're not enabling the tools that prevent so called liberals from seeing the demographics for what they are. I daydream about mandatory voting but then I worry it would just be used as another cudgel against minorities. Bar them from voting and then fine them for failing to do so.
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Nov 12, 2016 22:47
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I think it should also be pointed out here that Trump's presidency will gently caress over everyone. There is not one person who will not be hurt, or whose life will even be be meaningfully improved by having him as their president. White straight folks were just too insulated to realise they'd be on the list.
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Nov 12, 2016 22:50
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Darth Walrus posted:I think it should also be pointed out here that Trump's presidency will gently caress over everyone. There is not one person who will not be hurt, or whose life will even be be meaningfully improved by having him as their president. White straight folks were just too insulated to realise they'd be on the list. Yeah if he fucks with trade agreements like he promised his base he would, lots of cushy white collar jobs are going to evaporate.
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Nov 12, 2016 22:54
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:This mentality of "hi I think of myself as a human being" "Oh you're so entitled demanding everyone AGREE with you" everything is equal truth is in the middle bullshit is exactly what got us here. Sometimes both sides aren't equally bad. Sometimes two opinions aren't equally valid. Sometimes there's such a thing as right and wrong. This is definitely something that I am realizing. Also, saying stuff like "Difference of opinion" is reserved for things like "I don't like coffee" not "I don't think black people deserve basic human privileges" . Huge blind spot for a whole lotta white people. Something I am dealing with lately is that the last week or so reading this thread and the Misogynoir thread has made me realize the sheer depth and scope of racism in America. I knew it was bad, and I thought I understood it better than most other white people, but reading the experiences and bullshit poc have to go through makes me sometimes feel like that fat guy in Mallrats that didn't see the Sailboat in the Magic Eye picture until the end of the film, and spent his whole life  trying to understand. I feel guilty about that; people can change but they should still own up to who they were up to that point (as the son of a born-again Christian dad who likes to pretend everything that happened the 42 years before he found Jesus wasn't relevant).
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Nov 12, 2016 22:57
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Panfilo posted:This is definitely something that I am realizing. Also, saying stuff like "Difference of opinion" is reserved for things like "I don't like coffee" not "I don't think black people deserve basic human privileges" . Huge blind spot for a whole lotta white people. I'm so glad you're realizing it, and I want to repeat what I've said: Anybody interested in coming around on this stuff, I welcome you and I will help you. You don't have to figure it all out on your own. Come together, it's the only way we'll survive.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:01
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Yeah if he fucks with trade agreements like he promised his base he would, lots of cushy white collar jobs are going to evaporate. On election night, I went over to the pub, and ran into a Texan acquaintance of mine who's working up here in Canada on a NAFTA visa, but he totally supported Trump! If Trump does what he says, this guy will presumably be kicked right the gently caress out, but I guess that doesn't matter to him, because he just didn't like Hillary. And, yeah, having trade wars will mean protecting the American market against imports, but you'd have to be a drooling moron to not realize that it will also cause other countries to reciprocate and, suddenly, it's harder for American companies to export the products they produce. Lower demand for American products abroad will mean fewer jobs, of course, but why bother thinking about that side of things? This brings us to the inescapable conclusion: the actions of the American electorate are not consistent with an election based around economic anxiety at all. Someone should make a chart similar to the "abortion chart" that shows that being anti-choice is more about punishing women for having sex, that shows that this election was indeed about maintaining white supremacy. The pieces all fit perfectly, and as much as I'm sure a lot of well-intentioned people want to ignore that, you can't. White America needs to own this. What happened to the mindset that gave us "gee golly, the Muslim community [that frequently speaks out against terrorism, if you ever bother to loving listen to them] needs to speak out against this sort of thing!" every time there's a terrorist attack committed by a Muslim? Meanwhile, this has happened due to a cancer in the white community that no one wants to address, and far too many white people are content to sit by and twiddle their thumbs, and talk about how it was really about WWC economic anxiety.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:06
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Why are you assuming that racists are rational actors, though?
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Nov 12, 2016 23:08
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:I'm so glad you're realizing it, and I want to repeat what I've said: Anybody interested in coming around on this stuff, I welcome you and I will help you. You don't have to figure it all out on your own. Come together, it's the only way we'll survive. I've had a similar experience to Panfilo because of this and the Misogynoir thread as well. I just didn't want to say so because I know this thread isn't for me and I want to keep my post count here to a minimum (and doing a pretty poor job of it). But I want to echo that yes, these threads are doing good and teaching people about things they sorely need to be taught.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:08
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PT6A posted:On election night, I went over to the pub, and ran into a Texan acquaintance of mine who's working up here in Canada on a NAFTA visa, but he totally supported Trump! If Trump does what he says, this guy will presumably be kicked right the gently caress out, but I guess that doesn't matter to him, because he just didn't like Hillary. I think, as I've suggested before, that it has more to do with a post-facts society rendering that kind of sensible, reality-based analysis moot. The Information Age has created multiple realities, immersive environments where everything happens according to your chosen belief-set. If you believe, say, that lizards caused 9/11, then you can enter a community that also believes that and get all external input filtered through a news-service that's just as paranoid about lizards as you are. I think that it's fair to believe racists when they say they think the economy was destroyed by black people, because they live in an environment where they are constantly reassured that that is true. More reasoned analyses that are better rooted in reality didn't get through because reality has become subjective, and those analyses didn't have a tone that matched their emotional state. The facts may be out there, but so are a shitload of lies, and it takes a lot of training that few education systems are presently interested in providing to be able to tell one from the other. Just look at how badly so much of the country was tripped up by Trump's victory - they didn't live in a reality where that was possible or even likely.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:16
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Who What Now posted:I've had a similar experience to Panfilo because of this and the Misogynoir thread as well. I just didn't want to say so because I know this thread isn't for me and I want to keep my post count here to a minimum (and doing a pretty poor job of it). And frankly, I'm learning a bit as well. As hard as you think it may be to "ask a POC," the opposite is nearly nonexistent, lest we summon the label of "uppity." e: Forums ate my quote, call up Jesse Jackson, I'm suing.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:16
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teen witch posted:And frankly, I'm learning a bit as well. As hard as you think it may be to "ask a POC," the opposite is nearly nonexistent, lest we summon the label of "uppity." I have no doubt. I've always "known" that any hardship I face is at least five times worse for PoC, but seeing first hand accounts coming from people in a community I'm part of is doing a lot to drive that home for me.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:25
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I think something that Koalas March, Tiny Brontosaurus, Gfsincere and others did that takes a ton of class is to call out stuff they feel is unacceptable in their space, and yet be open to people willing to come around and accept sincere apologies. To me, this disarms a lot of the morons on SA. If someone was genuinely being naive, they are given a ton of leeway to sort that poo poo out with themselves. If not, please take the next left out of Negrotown. It would have been totally reasonable for them to want to have a poc-only space, and shout down everybody that said something stupid. But they are all patient enough to know that some people are genuinely curious and open to change.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:32
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Darth Walrus posted:I think, as I've suggested before, that it has more to do with a post-facts society rendering that kind of sensible, reality-based analysis moot. The Information Age has created multiple realities, immersive environments where everything happens according to your chosen belief-set. If you believe, say, that lizards caused 9/11, then you can enter a community that also believes that and get all external input filtered through a news-service that's just as paranoid about lizards as you are. I think that it's fair to believe racists when they say they think the economy was destroyed by black people, because they live in an environment where they are constantly reassured that that is true. More reasoned analyses that are better rooted in reality didn't get through because reality has become subjective, and those analyses didn't have a tone that matched their emotional state. If it was economic anxiety (even driven by a post-facts sensibility), it doesn't seem to be reflected in the senate races. So, I decided to use a senator's vote for the TPP as an indicator of whether or not they were on the free trade side or not (and thus vulnerable to an economically anxious voting wave). Of the 22 senators who voted for the TPP, 20 got re-elected. Of the 5 senators who voted against the TPP, all 5 got re-elected. So, it's hard to say that a vote for the TPP was a factor in an incumbent senator losing. But, if you do want to take the narrative that the 2 incumbent senators who lost, lost in part due to their TPP votes, you also have to take into account the fact that those two states (Illinois and New Hampshire) then turned around and voted for Clinton. So it may just be that the incumbency effect just drowns out any other factors affecting voting. Or it may be that the economically anxious voter didn't care about the TPP. But, at a first glance, if voters were economically anxious, it doesn't seem to be reflected in their votes for senator.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:37
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Who What Now posted:I have no doubt. I've always "known" that any hardship I face is at least five times worse for PoC, but seeing first hand accounts coming from people in a community I'm part of is doing a lot to drive that home for me. I'd started getting an inkling when I ran into serious specific advice for hiring (tech) saying pretty outright that you need to actively work to counter the way that you've in all likeliness stacked the deck without even noticing. An example of this is: https://blog.codinghorror.com/we-hire-the-best-just-like-everyone-else/ (tl;dr money quote is "Perhaps worst of all, if the interview process is predicated on zero doubt, total confidence … maybe this candidate doesn't feel right because they don't look like you, dress like you, think like you, speak like you, or come from a similar background as you? Are you accidentally maximizing for hidden bias?") This thread was really good at giving me an idea of just how big the iceberg actually is.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:54
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Lt. Danger posted:Why are you assuming that racists are rational actors, though? They aren't. If they were rational actors, they wouldn't be racist in the first place. But you can see the pushback from a lot of stuff in terms of identity politics. Gamergate was a large part of that kind of pushback which was very poorly hidden behind the flimsiest of excuses with "ethics in games journalism". People are just so drat upset that gaming publications have the nerve to comment on social issues such as representation in games.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:57
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The scary thing about progressives downplaying racism as of import to this election is that it almost feels like a missing the forest for the trees blind spot. I always assumed racist rhetoric is more popular during economic down times and uncertainty, the kind that might happen during a presidency held by the GOP. People keep posting that naturally if you focus on fixing the economy first by putting forward more left/socialist economic platform candidates you would scoop up these white voters feeling anxious and angry and betrayed and then you can focus on education about racism, but if part of their betrayal pertains to matters of race (it does), the right wing candidate offering more change and the similar racist undercurrent would be more popular, correct? Isn't that how right wing politics is sweeping over Europe? Why the assumption america would be immune to that and immediately follow the more enlightened policies in the direct aftermath of a right wing populist gaining power?
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Nov 13, 2016 00:07
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blackguy32 posted:They aren't. If they were rational actors, they wouldn't be racist in the first place. People are responsible for their beliefs and actions. If their rationale informs their actions then they are rational actors. Just because their reasons are stupid doesn't exonerate them from being reasoning people.
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Nov 13, 2016 00:07
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blackguy32 posted:They aren't. If they were rational actors, they wouldn't be racist in the first place. Right. I don't think we can use Trump voters being savvy high-info critical thinkers who can puzzle out Trump's economic nonsense for what it is as evidence for Trump voters being very stupid racist idiots with terrible opinions. We don't really need to, either.
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Nov 13, 2016 00:07
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Rexicon1 posted:People are responsible for their beliefs and actions. If their rationale informs their actions then they are rational actors. Just because their reasons are stupid doesn't exonerate them from being reasoning people. We have asked you many times. I will ask politely for the last loving time. Please go. Koalas March fucked around with this message at 00:12 on Nov 13, 2016 |
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Nov 13, 2016 00:10
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Rexicon1 posted:People are responsible for their beliefs and actions. If their rationale informs their actions then they are rational actors. Just because their reasons are stupid doesn't exonerate them from being reasoning people. Just because they are irrational doesn't excuse them from being responsible for it. There is nothing rational about racism. But just because they are irrational, doesn't mean they are stupid either. They know all about dogwhistles and all that poo poo and when your end goal is simply white supremacy, you will sacrifice a bunch of other poo poo to get it.
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Nov 13, 2016 00:12
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Koalas March posted:We have asked you many times. I will ask politely for the last loving time. No, what the hell is wrong with you people that you can't have a civil discussion about something. Stop channeling loving CSPAM. e: And if you are a loving white person telling me to get out gently caress your stupid loving racist rear end, I've had more than enough of that poo poo on this dogshit forum. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 13, 2016 00:18
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blackguy32 posted:Just because they are irrational doesn't excuse them from being responsible for it. There is nothing rational about racism. But just because they are irrational, doesn't mean they are stupid either. They know all about dogwhistles and all that poo poo and when your end goal is simply white supremacy, you will sacrifice a bunch of other poo poo to get it. I just think that letting people off the hook for racism by saying "oh they don't come to their conclusions from their beliefs and thoughts" is incorrect.
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Nov 13, 2016 00:19
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Rexicon1 posted:No, what the hell is wrong with you people that you can't have a civil discussion about something. Stop channeling loving CSPAM. What the hell do you mean, "You people"? Also, Koalas March is black. Please leave. Rexicon1 posted:I just think that letting people off the hook for racism by saying "oh they don't come to their conclusions from their beliefs and thoughts" is incorrect. No one is letting anyone off the hook for anything.
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Nov 13, 2016 00:20
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blackguy32 posted:What the hell do you mean, "You people"? Please leave. I mean you idiots who think this thread can't handle a loving person of color speaking their mind you loving trash bastards. blackguy32 posted:No one is letting anyone off the hook for anything. Rexicon1 fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Nov 13, 2016 |
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Nov 13, 2016 00:21
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What the hell is going on here?
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Nov 13, 2016 00:22
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saying that racism is not a rational thing isn't letting anyone off the hook for anything. racism is irrational. It is not affected by facts. you don't reason someone into racism. trying to treat it as a rational thing is only going to lead you down an increasingly wrong path.
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Nov 13, 2016 00:24
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Rexicon1 posted:No, what the hell is wrong with you people that you can't have a civil discussion about something. Stop channeling loving CSPAM. You should probably read this thread instead of barreling into it like a jackass. Edit: quote:e: And if you are a loving white person telling me to get out gently caress your stupid loving racist rear end, I've had more than enough of that poo poo on this dogshit forum. 
Who What Now fucked around with this message at 00:30 on Nov 13, 2016 |
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Nov 13, 2016 00:25
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Who What Now posted:You should probably read this thread instead of barreling into it like a jackass. Barreling into it with a good goddamn reason. This thread is just as poisonous as that poo poo on CSPAM and is loving detrimental to causes I've been working most of my adult life to change. And part of it is real goddamn anger at a bunch of half-woke children having their hugbox disturbed by an opinion that isn't "said the right way".
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Nov 13, 2016 00:27
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