Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Locked thread
JeffersonClay
Jun 17, 2003

by R. Guyovich

Boon posted:

Why do you think this?

Here is the top concerns of hispanic voters in 2016:
1. The economy
2. Healthcare
3. Terrorism
4. Education
5. Immigration
6. Social Security
7. Environment

Wow it's almost like racism is a systemic issue which might affect all those concerns for non-white people.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Crowsbeak
Oct 9, 2012

by Azathoth
Lipstick Apathy

fishmech posted:

Oh you're one of those lunatics who thinks Literal Communism was going to poll well with Americans, glad to see you aren't actually making serious suggestions.

Incrementalism is how things actually work when you don't have majority military/civil support for revolution, dude.

Well HRC offered incrementalism. She lost.

fishmech
Jul 16, 2006

by VideoGames
Salad Prong

kaleedity posted:

Good thing we elected trump instead

Trump would for sure have been elected if he was running against an actual communist proposing actual communism.


Condiv posted:

hmm, bernie seems to be accomplishing things as we speak. last I heard hillary was off hiking in the woods after her defeat to a clown man. too bad incrementalism wasn't electable, huh?

Bernie isn't anything close to an actual communist, so I'm not sure why you think he's relevant? Bernie was incrementalism as all hell, he wouldn't even advocate the people's ownership of the means of production! poo poo, he wouldn't even promise free college, just free tuition.

Crowsbeak posted:

Well HRC offered incrementalism. She lost.

So did Bernie, so did literally everyone else who ran to be the Democratic candidate.

fishmech fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Nov 12, 2016

Harold Fjord
Jan 3, 2004

Boon posted:

Why do you think this?

Here is the top concerns of hispanic voters in 2016:
1. The economy
2. Healthcare
3. Terrorism
4. Education
5. Immigration
6. Social Security
7. Environment

Source?

Boon
Jun 21, 2005

by R. Guyovich
^^
http://www.pewhispanic.org/2014/10/29/chapter-4-top-issues-in-this-years-election-for-hispanic-voters/

JeffersonClay posted:

Wow it's almost like racism is a systemic issue which might affect all those concerns for non-white people.

Then why don't the the people affected by it state it as their number one priority?

Boon fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Nov 12, 2016

JeffersonClay
Jun 17, 2003

by R. Guyovich

Guy Goodbody posted:

Clinton got a smaller percentage of the black and Latino vote than Obama did.

Mostly due to black and latino men. Interesting, that.

The Ol Spicy Keychain
Jan 17, 2013

I MEPHISTO MY OWN ASSHOLE
Lots and lots of liberals saying the election wasn't about economics just pure racism/sexism.

I don't think liberals get what they're saying. If what they are saying is true then we might as well start getting ready for civil war part 2 or split the country into Ds/Rs because the country is going to stay divided.

Condiv
May 7, 2008

Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod


fishmech posted:

Bernie isn't anything close to an actual communist, so I'm not sure why you think he's relevant? Bernie was incrementalism as all hell, he wouldn't even advocate the people's ownership of the means of production!

who said anything about communism fishmech? also, bernie's relevant cause he's doing things. making endorsements, rebuilding the dem party. unlike your do-nothing abuela

Rexicon1
Oct 9, 2007

A Shameful Path Led You Here

fishmech posted:

Trump would for sure have been elected if he was running against an actual communist proposing actual communism.


Bernie isn't anything close to an actual communist, so I'm not sure why you think he's relevant? Bernie was incrementalism as all hell, he wouldn't even advocate the people's ownership of the means of production! poo poo, he wouldn't even promise free college, just free tuition.


So did Bernie, so did literally everyone else who ran to be the Democratic candidate.

no one is actually asking for a real Communist Solution you nitwit.

Who What Now
Sep 10, 2006

by Azathoth

Boon posted:

Okay - let's accept that this is 100% true. What does that mean, practically, moving forward?

That we need to teach these people that their favorite phrase has actual meaning; All Lives Matter, not just white, middle-class ones.

fishmech
Jul 16, 2006

by VideoGames
Salad Prong

Condiv posted:

who said anything about communism fishmech? also, bernie's relevant cause he's doing things. making endorsements, rebuilding the dem party. unlike your do-nothing abuela

Ah, so you're incapable of reading posts. The conversation is about revolution vs incrementalism, and Bernie Sanders is firmly on the side of incrementalism. The things he's doing right now that you're jizzing over, are incrementalism.

JeffersonClay
Jun 17, 2003

by R. Guyovich

Boon posted:

^^
http://www.pewhispanic.org/2014/10/29/chapter-4-top-issues-in-this-years-election-for-hispanic-voters/


Then why didn't the people affected by it state that as their number one priority?

Because the study gave them choices and the respondents ranked them. Racism was not one of the choices.

Who What Now
Sep 10, 2006

by Azathoth

Crowsbeak posted:

Well HRC offered incrementalism. She lost.

Bernie offered more, and he lost as well. Clearly incrementalism did better by every metric.

Scent of Worf posted:

Lots and lots of liberals saying the election wasn't about economics just pure racism/sexism.

I don't think liberals get what they're saying. If what they are saying is true then we might as well start getting ready for civil war part 2 or split the country into Ds/Rs because the country is going to stay divided.

This is pretty much true at this point.

Rexicon1
Oct 9, 2007

A Shameful Path Led You Here

fishmech posted:

Ah, so you're incapable of reading posts. The conversation is about revolution vs incrementalism, and Bernie Sanders is firmly on the side of incrementalism. The things he's doing right now that you're jizzing over, are incrementalism.

You are such a disingenuous piece of poo poo.

Guy Goodbody
Aug 31, 2016

by Nyc_Tattoo

JeffersonClay posted:

Because the study gave them choices and the respondents ranked them. Racism was not one of the choices.

Do you have literally any evidence at all that racism is the #1 issue for latino voters?

fishmech
Jul 16, 2006

by VideoGames
Salad Prong

Rexicon1 posted:

It's almost as if no one is actually asking for a real Communist Solution you nitwit.

That guy was mad that the Democrats have capitalist solutions and attitudes. If you're mad about capitalist solutions, you're asking for communist solutions - unless you're instead asking for some dumbass monarchist-feudalist stuff. But I sincerely doubt he wants that!

Rexicon1 posted:

You are such a disingenuous piece of poo poo.

That's you, buddy.

Boon
Jun 21, 2005

by R. Guyovich

JeffersonClay posted:

Because the study gave them choices and the respondents ranked them. Racism was not one of the choices.

Well then let's look at one that DOES specifically address that idea - you'll find the result about half-way down the list. Even further down the list towards the bottom you'll find treatment of LGBT
http://www.people-press.org/2016/07/07/6-hispanic-voters-and-the-2016-election/

I welcome any and all evidence you have that what you're saying is factual.

Who What Now posted:

That we need to teach these people that their favorite phrase has actual meaning; All Lives Matter, not just white, middle-class ones.

Your opinions are frankly dangerous because you refuse to accept that people don't work and think like robots. You will not change anyone's mind by 'teaching these people' short of forcing integration and experience onto them. I'd love to hear your thought on how you'd propose to do that.

The correct answer is to find what motivates people to a greater extent than racism and how to long-term guide society towards a path of societal identity rather than to magic the racism out of them but you're a loving idiot so.

Boon fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Nov 12, 2016

Sharkopath
May 27, 2009

Scent of Worf posted:

Lots and lots of liberals saying the election wasn't about economics just pure racism/sexism.

I don't think liberals get what they're saying. If what they are saying is true then we might as well start getting ready for civil war part 2 or split the country into Ds/Rs because the country is going to stay divided.

The country was born divided and will remain divided into the future. GOP dominance and Trump's presidency has emboldened racism in the short term and presumably will also entrench itself to economic concerns more deeply than they already have been in the future.

Mister Facetious
Apr 21, 2007

I think I died and woke up in L.A.,
I don't know how I wound up in this place...

:canada:

fishmech posted:

That guy was mad that the Democrats have capitalist solutions and attitudes. If you're mad about capitalist solutions, you're asking for communist solutions - unless you're instead asking for some dumbass monarchist-feudalist stuff. But I sincerely doubt he wants that!


Can we split the difference, and have socialist solutions?

Condiv
May 7, 2008

Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod


fishmech posted:

Ah, so you're incapable of reading posts. The conversation is about revolution vs incrementalism, and Bernie Sanders is firmly on the side of incrementalism. The things he's doing right now that you're jizzing over, are incrementalism.

oh wow, where is this definition of incrementalism which encompasses everything up to communism fishmech? is this based on horseshoe theory? why should i have been able to assume that by incrementalist you meant everyone between stalin and hitler?

Cerebral Bore
Apr 21, 2010


Fun Shoe

Sharkopath posted:

Yeah, I agree entirely and have been posting to this effect but this is where our personal opinions begin to differ because I am no longer allowing myself to underestimate the effect racism can have on the total electorate.

Well, it's certainly true that racism was a huge factor. But even by going all out on the racism, Trump only managed to score a very narrow win and even that was only accomplished by him happening to say stuff that resonated well in the rust belt while Clinton completely blew it on messaging in those states. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but I got the impression that the racism that allowed Trump to win was less of the "I hate the minorities and will vote to gently caress them over" kind and more of the "I'll vote for what sounds best for me and mine, even if it fucks over the minorities" kind of racism.

I fully understand that there's not much difference of outcome for minorities between the two at the end of the day, but the important difference is that if this holds then the latter group can be appealed to come around to voting for the non-poo poo alternative, no racism required, which is kind of important when looking to the next election.

Rexicon1 posted:

One correction I want to make in this discussion. It's very possible that the economy will be booming in four years. The real metrics that we need to keep an eye on is income inequality, the size of the middle class and student debt burden. The rich people could be swimming in Scrooge McDuck money towers in four years and they will claim that Trump's candidacy was a rousing success by GDP standards. Maybe consumer spending will plummet but I'm sure business capital expenditures could make up for it.

As a socialist I wouldn't consider the rich stealing even more from the working class to be a booming economy, but I see your point.

Spoondick
Jun 9, 2000

Scent of Worf posted:

Lots and lots of liberals saying the election wasn't about economics just pure racism/sexism.

I don't think liberals get what they're saying. If what they are saying is true then we might as well start getting ready for civil war part 2 or split the country into Ds/Rs because the country is going to stay divided.

liberals were oblivious to the fact they're supposedly progressives who were offering status-quo instead of progressive policies when the status-quo is awful for millions of voters

aBagorn
Aug 26, 2004

Mister Macys posted:

Trump won because he promised to make the lives of working class whites better, and the rich tax breaks.

Hillary promised neither...

As has been stated before, this is objectively false. She was talking about economic policy early in the general campaign, and was promptly ignored for live feed of Trump's empty podium.

FAUXTON
Jun 2, 2005

spero che tu stia bene

What happens in 2018 when the jobs haven't come back and everyone's still poor as gently caress and Trump is like "I NEED MORE POWER TO DO ALL THAT poo poo I PROMISED" to the rurals?

Rexicon1
Oct 9, 2007

A Shameful Path Led You Here

fishmech posted:

That guy was mad that the Democrats have capitalist solutions and attitudes. If you're mad about capitalist solutions, you're asking for communist solutions - unless you're instead asking for some dumbass monarchist-feudalist stuff. But I sincerely doubt he wants that!


Ok McCarthy

fishmech
Jul 16, 2006

by VideoGames
Salad Prong

Condiv posted:

oh wow, where is this definition of incrementalism which encompasses everything up to communism fishmech? is this based on horseshoe theory? why should i have been able to assume that by incrementalist you meant everyone between stalin and hitler?

Describe how you believe Bernie Sanders isn't incrementalist. Is it just that Bernie Sanders' platform is where you think things should stop, with nothing beyond that?

Rexicon1 posted:

Ok McCarthy

Why do you hate communism?

Fajita Queen
Jun 21, 2012


This is a few pages back and got overlooked, but goddamn do I love this woman. :allears:

Mister Facetious
Apr 21, 2007

I think I died and woke up in L.A.,
I don't know how I wound up in this place...

:canada:

Rexicon1 posted:

One correction I want to make in this discussion. It's very possible that the economy will be booming in four years. The real metrics that we need to keep an eye on is income inequality, the size of the middle class and student debt burden. The rich people could be swimming in Scrooge McDuck money towers in four years and they will claim that Trump's candidacy was a rousing success by GDP standards. Maybe consumer spending will plummet but I'm sure business capital expenditures could make up for it.

1.) The economy has been "booming" for four years, but the only people that have gotten anything out of it has been the upper 10%
2.) Income inequality is already at historic levels. America has surpassed the gilded age of the twenties and thirties.
3.) The middle class has been shrinking as a percentage since 1967
4.) Student debt already rivalling medical debt
5.) The rich already have Scrooge McDuck money

Where the gently caress have you been that you don't already know this?

fishmech posted:

That's you, buddy.

He's right about you.

Rexicon1
Oct 9, 2007

A Shameful Path Led You Here

Mister Macys posted:

1.) The economy has been "booming" for four years, but the only people that have gotten anything out of it has been the upper 10%
2.) Income inequality is already at historic levels. America has surpassed the gilded age of the twenties and thirties.
3.) The middle class has been shrinking as a percentage since 1967
4.) Student debt already rivalling medical debt
5.) The rich already have Scrooge McDuck money

Where the gently caress have you been that you don't already know this?

I do know this, what about my statement included a denial of this happening previously? I'm just asserting that you're going to hear a lot of bullshit in the media about "Wow-ee that Dow Jones just is skyrocketing because of our big boy Trump and the total Control of the country!"

Condiv
May 7, 2008

Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod


fishmech posted:

Describe how you believe Bernie Sanders isn't incrementalist. Is it just that Bernie Sanders' platform is where you think things should stop, with nothing beyond that?


Why do you hate communism?

oh it's quite simple, during the primary, incrementalism was the word of the day as it was why bernie sanders was a fool. see his policy was neither pragmatic, nor was it incremental.

that's why i believe sanders isn't incrementalist

AVeryLargeRadish
Aug 19, 2011

I LITERALLY DON'T KNOW HOW TO NOT BE A WEIRD SEXUAL CREEP ABOUT PREPUBESCENT ANIME GIRLS, READ ALL ABOUT IT HERE!!!

Guy Goodbody posted:

Jobs. They want jobs. Promise them jobs. Good jobs. Promise that if they elect you president you'll get them good jobs.

So lie to them? Anyone who claims that they will bring the jobs back is a loving liar.

All of you come across as caring more about the votes than the people casting them.

chumbler
Mar 28, 2010

Spoondick posted:

liberals were oblivious to the fact they're supposedly progressives who were offering status-quo instead of progressive policies when the status-quo is awful for millions of voters

Or they assumed people who claimed to be progressive would still vote to protect the rights and lives of marginalized people even if they didn't get the total revolution thdy want an well we see how that worked out.

Crowsbeak
Oct 9, 2012

by Azathoth
Lipstick Apathy

fishmech posted:

Trump would for sure have been elected if he was running against an actual communist proposing actual communism.


Bernie isn't anything close to an actual communist, so I'm not sure why you think he's relevant? Bernie was incrementalism as all hell, he wouldn't even advocate the people's ownership of the means of production! poo poo, he wouldn't even promise free college, just free tuition.


So did Bernie, so did literally everyone else who ran to be the Democratic candidate.

I see we have different interpretations on that. Very well. I also thought you were suggesting Sanders was a commie.

Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 23:32 on Nov 12, 2016

Evil Fluffy
Jul 13, 2009

Scholars are some of the most pompous and pedantic people I've ever had the joy of meeting.
Everyone please keep arguing about voter turnout while largely ignoring that this is the first post-VRA election and there have been incredibly deliberate voter suppression across the county, especially in states like Wisconsin, Ohio, Florida, and North Carolina.


It doesn't matter how awesome you think your message is going to be in 2020 (or 2018) if millions of your voters don't show up because they literally can't overcome the hurdles the GOP throw in front of them over the next several years. Strict nationwide voter ID requirements will gently caress over millions of people, especially when combined with targeted DMV closures and other poo poo we've been seeing.

Guy Goodbody
Aug 31, 2016

by Nyc_Tattoo

AVeryLargeRadish posted:

So lie to them? Anyone who claims that they will bring the jobs back is a loving liar.

All of you come across as caring more about the votes than the people casting them.

If a political party can't even pretend that it's policies will result in people getting good jobs, they deserve to lose.

fishmech
Jul 16, 2006

by VideoGames
Salad Prong

Condiv posted:

oh it's quite simple, during the primary, incrementalism was the word of the day as it was why bernie sanders was a fool. see his policy was neither pragmatic, nor was it incremental.

that's why i believe sanders isn't incrementalist

So you believe Bernie Sanders isn't an incrementalist because some guy was mean to you. That doesn't make him not an incrementalist though, especially since he expressly advocated for incrementalist policy both during the primary and in support of the general election.

Boon
Jun 21, 2005

by R. Guyovich

AVeryLargeRadish posted:

So lie to them? Anyone who claims that they will bring the jobs back is a loving liar.

All of you come across as caring more about the votes than the people casting them.

What do you suggest? You know these jobs aren't coming back in the short-term. You know that traditional ideas of growing up and living an entire life in the same place is not tenable any longer. You know that rural communities will continue their decay and there is nothing any politician can do about it.

So should we welcome the disintegration of the United States because we are unable to halt our slide into urban vs rural economies?

JeffersonClay
Jun 17, 2003

by R. Guyovich

Boon posted:

Well then let's look at one that DOES specifically address that idea - you'll find the result about half-way down the list. Even further down the list towards the bottom you'll find treatment of LGBT
http://www.people-press.org/2016/07/07/6-hispanic-voters-and-the-2016-election/

I welcome any and all evidence you have that what you're saying is factual.

71% of latinos said racism was a major concern. 86% said the economy. The next poll item shows that Latinos prefer Hillary by 60 points on race, and by 16 points on the economy. So despite the fact that 15% less latinos think race is a major issue, those who do think it's a major issue are much more likely to vote for democrats.

quote:

correct answer is to find what motivates people to a greater extent than racism and how to long-term guide society towards a path of societal identity rather than to magic the racism out of them but you're a loving idiot so.

What if racism is the primary motivating factor for many people? What if it's something we can't just ignore and expect our magical socialist utopia to appear?

AVeryLargeRadish
Aug 19, 2011

I LITERALLY DON'T KNOW HOW TO NOT BE A WEIRD SEXUAL CREEP ABOUT PREPUBESCENT ANIME GIRLS, READ ALL ABOUT IT HERE!!!

Guy Goodbody posted:

If a political party can't even pretend that it's policies will result in people getting good jobs, they deserve to lose.

So pretending is enough.

I almost want to laugh but it's too drat sad. :sigh:

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Condiv
May 7, 2008

Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod


fishmech posted:

So you believe Bernie Sanders isn't an incrementalist because some guy was mean to you. That doesn't make him not an incrementalist though, especially since he expressly advocated for incrementalist policy both during the primary and in support of the general election.

hmm no, try again. here's an example of the term in use: http://www.salon.com/2016/01/26/i_have_had_it_with_naive_bernie_sanders_idealists/

  • Locked thread