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If Trump goes through with the things he's been talking about during his campaign, I'd say it's basically an impossibility that the GDP will increase. It's very likely the cost of living will go up and it's very unlikely manufacturing jobs will return bigly. He will probably not go through with everything he's promised, though.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:28
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FAUXTON posted:What happens in 2018 when the jobs haven't come back and everyone's still poor as gently caress and Trump is like "I NEED MORE POWER TO DO ALL THAT poo poo I PROMISED" to the rurals? He gets it. Rexicon1 posted:Ok McCarthy You're a stupid, petty dipshit.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:28
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Condiv posted:hmm no, try again. here's an example of the term in use: http://www.salon.com/2016/01/26/i_have_had_it_with_naive_bernie_sanders_idealists/ Uh, bro, Bernie Sanders being an incrementalist who wants larger increments, does not make him non-incrementalist. Maybe it's just that your command of English has slipped in your time overseas.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:29
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Rexicon1 posted:I do know this, what about my statement included a denial of this happening previously? I'm just asserting that you're going to hear a lot of bullshit in the media about "Wow-ee that Dow Jones just is skyrocketing because of our big boy Trump and the total Control of the country!" Not saying you're denying anything, but as written, you make it sound like these things are going to happen, not that they're already happening.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:30
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JeffersonClay posted:What if racism is the primary motivating factor for many people? What if it's something we can't just ignore and expect our magical socialist utopia to appear? Those people were never going to vote democrat in the first place.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:31
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Who What Now posted:He gets it. Why do you keep going after me when I'm literally 100% on your side. Literally everything you've been standing for I'm right there with you on every front. But you take Fishmech's dumb rear end moderate nonsense side? Go for it dude. You're gonna have great success convincing people of the problems we both are fighting for if you snap at every goddamn line thrown your way.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:31
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AVeryLargeRadish posted:So pretending is enough. It's better than not. Seriously tho, if "rural living is no longer economically tenable, labor must be mobile and responsive to the whims of capital" is the Democrat's position, then yeah, gently caress the Democrats.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:31
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FAUXTON posted:What happens in 2018 when the jobs haven't come back and everyone's still poor as gently caress and Trump is like "I NEED MORE POWER TO DO ALL THAT poo poo I PROMISED" to the rurals? outcomes ranked from best to worst: 1. People get really pissed at Trump/GOP and the Dems have their poo poo together, causing GOP turnout to decline, Dem turnout to rise, and non-traditional Trump voters to jump off the Trump Train. The midterms are a Dem wave reminiscent of 2006, causing Dems to take the House and a bunch of state-level races. Senate remains out of reach but Dems are in a better position to retake it in 2020 2. People get really pissed at Trump/GOP but the Dems still don't have their poo poo together, so they only make moderate gains in the midterms. Still in a good position to win 2020 though 3. GOP gets desperate and Trump goes full-on racist demagogue to distract from all the unfulfilled promises. Things get extremely bad for a lot of people but Dems get fired up in response hopefully? 4. Trump does well against all expectations and serves out two full terms. gently caress 5. A major 9/11-style terrorist attack happens between now and 2018 and America goes full Nazi Germany as the country rallies around Trump. There probably won't be a 2020 election in this timeline.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:32
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fishmech posted:Uh, bro, Bernie Sanders being an incrementalist who wants larger increments, does not make him non-incrementalist. Maybe it's just that your command of English has slipped in your time overseas. no-one used the term like this, just you. you seem to have invented some bizarre form of incrementalism as related to politics that no-one ever mentions fishmech. why are you inventing words to try to win arguments fishmech? http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2016/04/21/Biden-sides-with-Bernie-says-he-prefers-Sanders-big-ideas-to-grow-Dem-party/8841461256113/ another person using incrementalism and discluding bernie sanders.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:33
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Sharkopath posted:The country was born divided and will remain divided into the future. GOP dominance and Trump's presidency has emboldened racism in the short term and presumably will also entrench itself to economic concerns more deeply than they already have been in the future. It's not just race though. The republicans have shifted so far to the right that any government that has more than the core essentials (military & borders) is seen as something to relentlessly attack and systematically tear down. Half the country has been so indoctrinated that they will vote in officials who cut the government services they rely on and then they will double down on their vote in the next election. Look at Brownback's Kansas. How do you even fight back against this level of zombification of the population? Tens of millions of these people live extremely sheltered lives, will foam at the mouth at the slightest mention of the word liberal and will willingly destroy their own communities at the drop of a hat to spite said liberals. I don't see things getting better at all. The white nationalist movement happening across the entire western civilization should be a sign of what's to come.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:33
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Rexicon1 posted:Why do you keep going after me when I'm literally 100% on your side. Literally everything you've been standing for I'm right there with you on every front. But you take Fishmech's dumb rear end moderate nonsense side? Go for it dude. You're gonna have great success convincing people of the problems we both are fighting for if you snap at every goddamn line thrown your way. It's really interesting how you show you've never read a single word that you ranted against, with this post. I'm no moderate, I'm a leftist.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:33
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fishmech posted:I'm no moderate, I'm a leftist. No wonder I like you so much. 
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Nov 12, 2016 23:34
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Condiv posted:no-one used the term like this, just you. you seem to have invented some bizarre form of incrementalism as related to politics that no-one ever mentions fishmech. why are you inventing words to try to win arguments fishmech? No if any change happens and then more change needs to happen fishmech is technically correct, but it's a very tedious technicality.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:34
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Condiv posted:no-one used the term like this, just you. you seem to have invented some bizarre form of incrementalism as related to politics that no-one ever mentions fishmech. No I didn't. in·cre·men·tal·ism ˌiNGkrəˈmentlˌizəm/ noun noun: incrementalism belief in or advocacy of change by degrees; gradualism. That's his policies. This is very simple stuff, buddy. His platform and campaign were advocating for an incrementalist approach to improving America, and he's continuining to do so right now.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:36
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Guy Goodbody posted:It's better than not. Seriously tho, if "rural living is no longer economically tenable, labor must be mobile and responsive to the whims of capital" is the Democrat's position, then yeah, gently caress the Democrats. rural living is no longer economically tenable, stop loving listening to the people who still talk about free market solutions to everything and listen to the people talking about expanding the welfare state
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Nov 12, 2016 23:37
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Rexicon1 posted:Why do you keep going after me when I'm literally 100% on your side. Literally everything you've been standing for I'm right there with you on every front. But you take Fishmech's dumb rear end moderate nonsense side? Go for it dude. You're gonna have great success convincing people of the problems we both are fighting for if you snap at every goddamn line thrown your way. Because you're not on my side, you're only pretending to be. As soon as the problems you say you're against were shown to you you immediately tried to downplay it and continued to say it doesn't exist. You're the reason PoC are 100% justified in doubting the authenticity of so-called "allies". I don't believe you've ever meaningfully fought for anything regarding this, you just want to pretend you have without ever actually doing it. Fishmech can be (and more often than not is) a petty dipshit too, but in this case he's 100% right.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:39
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fishmech posted:No I didn't. nothing in there about communism. so why'd you start talking about it like it was the opposite of incrementalism? cause communism is incrementalist by your definition. (revolutionary communism is not however) Condiv fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Nov 12, 2016 |
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Nov 12, 2016 23:39
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Here's a tip: if you don't want insufferable useless pedantry don't argue with fishmech
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Nov 12, 2016 23:40
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Who What Now posted:Because you're not on my side, you're only pretending to be. As soon as the problems you say you're against were shown to you you immediately tried to downplay it and continued to say it doesn't exist. You're the reason PoC are 100% justified in doubting the authenticity of so-called "allies". I don't believe you've ever meaningfully fought for anything regarding this, you just want to pretend you have without ever actually doing it. I am a person of color you loving dolt. And I have never downplayed the problems of people like me. What is wrong with your woke-rear end idiot brain. Describe to me what I'm "pretending" to agree with you on? e: And gently caress you for asserting that I never meaningfully fought for anything regarding race. I've protested all around Maryland, Ohio, Florida and Texas against racial abuses on blacks hispanics and asians. You goddamn disgusting little pustule. You are the actual loving problem. You make people hate us more when you lash out anywhere and everywhere hoping to hit the mark and really let a racist "have it". There are better ways to go about this. Rexicon1 fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Nov 12, 2016 |
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Nov 12, 2016 23:43
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Rexicon1 posted:I am a person of color you loving dolt. And I have never downplayed the problems of people like me. What is wrong with your woke-rear end idiot brain. Describe to me what I'm "pretending" to agree with you on? Sorry, Who What Now sincerely believes that PoC are a singular bloc who agree with him and your refusal to do so really fucks with that narrative
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Nov 12, 2016 23:45
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Scent of Worf posted:It's not just race though. The republicans have shifted so far to the right that any government that has more than the core essentials (military & borders) is seen as something to relentlessly attack and systematically tear down. Half the country has been so indoctrinated that they will vote in officials who cut the government services they rely on and then they will double down on their vote in the next election. Look at Brownback's Kansas. Yes, to everything here. Racist rhetoric is more popular in economic down times and I think there's an assumption here that if trump fails to materialize jobs the electorate will naturally turn against him at either the state or federal level and naturally be swept up by a similarly populist economic reformer on a new left wing ticket. I don't see it that easily, there's a very real chance radicalized voters would reject socialist policy in favor of more right wing populism and then you just lose even more of the white vote. Please don't take anything for granted, especially not the support of the varied voting blocks of minorities as the GOP plans increased voter suppression measures on all levels. Actual solutions going forward are going to be complicated and I'm beginning to air on the side of pessimism with how many progressives are coming out the woodwork to smugly congratulate minorities on their four years of fascism if they offer an opposing opinion to the idea that identity politics is to blame for the loss.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:47
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Who What Now posted:Because you're not on my side, you're only pretending to be. As soon as the problems you say you're against were shown to you you immediately tried to downplay it and continued to say it doesn't exist. You're the reason PoC are 100% justified in doubting the authenticity of so-called "allies". I don't believe you've ever meaningfully fought for anything regarding this, you just want to pretend you have without ever actually doing it. 
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Nov 12, 2016 23:47
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FAUXTON posted:rural living is no longer economically tenable, stop loving listening to the people who still talk about free market solutions to everything and listen to the people talking about expanding the welfare state Rural living is plenty economically tenable, for a lot of the people still doing it. It's just no longer something that is tenable for everyone the way it was over 100 years ago. And the cut off point was somewhere around World War II at the absolute latest really. What old style "rural living" relied on was tons of small towns, which themselves relied on having a bunch of smallholding family farms and/or relatively small mining/other resource extraction scattered around, which needed a small town nearby to sell produce/get supplies/gather stuff up for shipment out to other markets. Just the diminished ability of smallholding family farms as a viable thing, and those people moving to the cities/suburbs killed a lot of towns and thus the surrounding rural area for most people - stores couldn't stay open, local services like a doctor or lawyer or bank couldn't stay in town. And that has a domino effect of making the area less viable, driving away more people. The big landholders generally can handle it fine, and so can people who are rich by other means, usually some manner of business that runs itself in the suburbs or cities. And there's a small base of people who can be sustained off the business they'll bring. It's just never going to be that critical mass for the heyday of the American small town, which was somewhere around 1860-1910. Condiv posted:nothing in there about communism. so why'd you start talking about it like it was the opposite of incrementalism? cause communism is incrementalist by your definition. (revolutionary communism is not however) Communism is an end state, something where incrementalism stops because you've reached your goal. But we're talking about communism because a guy was mad that Democrats are capitalist! Please, you should try to read threads sometime.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:48
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Rexicon1 posted:I am a person of color you loving dolt. Ok, I accept that. quote:And I have never downplayed the problems of people like me. What is wrong with your woke-rear end idiot brain. Describe to me what I'm "pretending" to agree with you on? The gently caress you didnt. You didn't want to think that there was a "backlash of anti-racism from leftists" and rather than do any research into the matter yourself, without even finishing the episode you were told to watch even, you came back saying "well I (pretended to) look and I just don't see it guys, I don't think it's there!". And when you finally did see it you went full on "oh, well, I don't think this means anything, it's not that bad, don't worry about it, it's nothing". For saying you're on my side, you sure don't seem to want to acknowledge and face problems that people I'm trying to support are working against.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:49
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Scent of Worf posted:Lots and lots of liberals saying the election wasn't about economics just pure racism/sexism. Oh, the election was absolutely about economics. The economy was bad under the current president, so people voted for the opposition. Voters were reluctant to believe in anything the Dems put forward since they'd had eight years to fix the economy anyway, and the media didn't report on the candidates' economic policies except to talk about how wild and crazy Trump was to blame immigrants for the economic problems. Guy Goodbody posted:It's better than not. Seriously tho, if "rural living is no longer economically tenable, labor must be mobile and responsive to the whims of capital" is the Democrat's position, then yeah, gently caress the Democrats. It's not tenable, though. Denying it is about as dumb as Florida and Louisiana denying climate change and pretending half their economy won't wash away with the tide in the next fifty years. There is no solution that can economically revitalize all or even most rural areas, which obviously makes it very difficult to offer a solution to those areas without lying. Let's not forget, Trump's grand appeal to the rural working class was "everything is the fault of non-whites and foreigners, once I get rid of them all your economy will return to 1950s levels of prosperity".
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Nov 12, 2016 23:49
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Rexicon1 posted:I am a person of color you loving dolt. And I have never downplayed the problems of people like me. What is wrong with your woke-rear end idiot brain. Describe to me what I'm "pretending" to agree with you on? Who What Now is incapable of processing nuance or anything that isn't specifically in absolutist terms.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:49
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Squashing Machine posted:Sorry, Who What Now sincerely believes that PoC are a singular bloc who agree with him and your refusal to do so really fucks with that narrative Not really.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:49
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Who What Now posted:Not really. I fail to see what other conclusion there is to draw when the crux of your attack on the guy was the false concept that he was a white ally.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:51
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Just so we're all in agreement, there are people in this thread saying Hillary Clinton, a candidate deemed untrustworthy, should have lied to midwest white voters that she would bring back the factories.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:55
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Guy Goodbody posted:For example, Clinton got only 65% of the Latino vote. poo poo that appeals to my upper class Castillian family is not going to appeal to white Cuban expats in Miami nor is it going to appeal to natural-born citizens whose parents are LPRs from Mexico or on TPS from South American countries. Except for, you know, abortion (particularly in the older crowd) and 'kindly stop stoking racial animosity against us we were born here you dolts".
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Nov 12, 2016 23:57
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chumbler posted:Just so we're all in agreement, there are people in this thread saying Hillary Clinton, a candidate deemed untrustworthy, should have lied to midwest white voters that she would bring back the factories. So I guess that would make the platform she didn't expound on due to her team being afraid to alienate affluent voters a complete lie.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:59
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Turns out when you mostly just stand for being better than the other guy, even when that's demonstrably true, you alienate everyone who didn't like you already.
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Nov 13, 2016 00:00
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Who What Now posted:Ok, I accept that. I didn't say any of those things you mischaracterizing little scumfuck. My initial response to the thing about Bill Maher was incredulity because I couldn't believe someone would say that on a panel of leftists. Once I saw the episode my response changed to "Yea that's wrong." with regards to what Maher said. My next point was to assert that the perceptions of race from many white people has been distorted and polluted. If racist people are going to change their stances on race, it's not going to be because we ostracize them enough to change their position. There's a LOT of racists out there and Trump getting elected gave these misguided people an escape from being forced to confront the consequences of their beliefs. They can solidify into their echo chambers because they have information reinforcing it. Like it or not we have to discuss the problems of race with racists and help them understand the problem rather than just raging against them. People respond to rage with more rage. If you really think that reaching out and educating racists or having discussions with them isn't going to help, then you better start some sort of Woke Black Panthers. If you are going to be an absolutist in your "woke commitment to people of color" you really need to know what the gently caress it is you are fighting for and who will work with you.
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Nov 13, 2016 00:01
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chumbler posted:Just so we're all in agreement, there are people in this thread saying Hillary Clinton, a candidate deemed untrustworthy, should have lied to midwest white voters that she would bring back the factories. eh I still think she was irreparably tarnished by having her husband be associated with NAFTA. She was pretty hosed either way since she didn't really have a history of economic populism of any kind.
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Nov 13, 2016 00:02
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I would say fishmech is like Hermes, technically right.
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Nov 13, 2016 00:09
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Crowsbeak posted:I would say fishmech is like Hermes, technically right. The best kind of right.
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Nov 13, 2016 00:10
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thanks 4 the new ringtone, Yoko
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Nov 13, 2016 00:14
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Monaghan posted:eh I still think she was irreparably tarnished by having her husband be associated with NAFTA. She was pretty hosed either way since she didn't really have a history of economic populism of any kind. voters trusted her more on the economy than donald. stop pretending this was about economics
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Nov 13, 2016 00:17
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Evil Fluffy posted:Everyone please keep arguing about voter turnout while largely ignoring that this is the first post-VRA election and there have been incredibly deliberate voter suppression across the county, especially in states like Wisconsin, Ohio, Florida, and North Carolina. I don't think this can be blamed as the main cause for the decreased turnout. It's just that combining it with candidate who didn't enthuse people enough to jump through hoops to get to vote made a large impact. If you can get 2008 Obama no amount of voter suppression is going to deny him a win.
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Nov 13, 2016 00:18
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Sharkopath posted:Yes, to everything here. God I wish I could remember where I heard it but basically the premise was that white republicans love government welfare and will vote for it but only if it's talked about in a way that applies to them and them only. Basically a large portion of them view themselves as having earned those welfare programs but minorities are just mooches. It really would not surprise me if that's what's going on here. Hell even things like trade unions are extremely white and very closed off. Same goes for police and fire departments. If these white voters reject democratic populism then it will be pretty clear they're doing so because of minorities. Next election cycle will be telling..
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Nov 13, 2016 00:19
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