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Panzeh posted:Put that fucker in War Thunder and i'll spade it in a day. Buying all the upgrades yourself is cheating 
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Nov 12, 2016 19:06
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:Lot of people in this thread need to read or reread Shattered Lightsaber. Jon Parshall really knows his Star Wars. Seconding this. Among other things, Parshall debunks the myth (based on Imperial sources now known to be self serving) that the Death Star was about to fire when it was destroyed at the Battle of Yavin. It turns out the constant launching of TIE fighters disrupted operations so much that they were still in the process of recharging the ion modulators at that time, and wouldn't have been able to strike for at least half an hour.
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Nov 12, 2016 19:56
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aphid_licker posted:Lionizing losers talk got me thinking about the Nibelungenlied and I felt that it had a distinctly 19th century made up history feel to it but reading up on it it's no poo poo 13th century vintage. It seems probable that the version I read as a kid was a reprint of a 19th century translation/reimagination of the matter, which may go some way towards explaining my impression. I'd have to look up the sourcing notes in the book, it's at my parents. Interesting. I've got a 1935 or 6 or something copy of it in a box somewhere with a forward written by Bernard Rust, the Nazi minister of Culture and Education. I don't know how much of the text is different from whatever Goethe was reading, but holy crap that forward is Kultur_according_to_Nazis.txt
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Nov 12, 2016 20:18
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Cyrano4747 posted:I've got a 1935 or 6 or something copy of it in a box somewhere with a forward written by Bernard Rust, the Nazi minister of Culture and Education. I don't know how much of the text is different from whatever Goethe was reading, but holy crap that forward is Kultur_according_to_Nazis.txt if you find it,  that poo poo, Kultur_according_to_Nazis.txt is interesting
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Nov 12, 2016 20:29
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It doesn't matter if your black hitler is gay if he's a lifelong virgin
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Nov 12, 2016 20:48
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HEY GAL posted:if you find it, Tell me about it. I got into a big argument in grad school at a bar with a guy from the German studies department who thought it was loving awful that I had it. He thought that there was no value to anything published in the nazi era, as we have copies of the texts without that political baggage. Having to explain to a guy who was supposedly up to his eyeballs in German language and culture that studying the way people thought about culture at some of the nastier points in that countries history is a good and useful thing was entertaining.
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Nov 12, 2016 21:09
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SeanBeansShako posted:Hey now, I'm only slightly at Bonapartist. Like 15%. I'm at like... 65%?
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Nov 12, 2016 21:40
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I'm going to spread good government by stealing your art and installing my dipshit family as your leaders. I'm a good emperor.
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Nov 12, 2016 21:50
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Panzeh posted:The utility of a starfighter is delivering ordnance and blowing up enemy starfighters, and a flexible twin-laser turret handles enemy starfighters well. If the Y-wings had been equipped correctly, there's no way Vader could have stopped them. There are a lot of situations where you don't want to kill something but do want to disable it. The rebellion gets most of its supplies from captured imperial freighters and you can't reliably disable one without ion weapons. Capital ships equipped with ion cannons aren't tactically or strategically agile enough to carry out these smash and grab ops without getting caught.
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Nov 12, 2016 22:31
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Carcer posted:So what is the largest gun used regularly in an anti tank role? At about what size did people decide that drat thing was too big and bulky to use effectively? Depends if you count naval gunfire support or not.
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Nov 12, 2016 22:36
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I'm at like... 65%? So Napoleon III? OfficialGBSCaliph posted:I'm going to spread good government by stealing your art and installing my dipshit family as your leaders. I'm a good emperor. Spain was doomed either way with both monarchs. Plus post Imperial Anti-Napoleon Boner Patrol weren't exactly the good guys. 1848. SeanBeansShako fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Nov 12, 2016 |
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Nov 12, 2016 22:40
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Carcer posted:There are a lot of situations where you don't want to kill something but do want to disable it. The rebellion gets most of its supplies from captured imperial freighters and you can't reliably disable one without ion weapons. Capital ships equipped with ion cannons aren't tactically or strategically agile enough to carry out these smash and grab ops without getting caught. Exactly what I was saying earlier. Economic interdiction played a huge part in the rebel victory, but now people only really pay attention to Yavin and Endor. I don't know what percentage value I'd give it, probably somewhere between 25 and 60 percent, but it's worthy of further study.
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Nov 12, 2016 22:45
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Grand Prize Winner posted:Exactly what I was saying earlier. Economic interdiction played a huge part in the rebel victory, but now people only really pay attention to Yavin and Endor. I don't know what percentage value I'd give it, probably somewhere between 25 and 60 percent, but it's worthy of further study. The Empire's real mistake was not building enough TIE Defenders and Executor-class Star Destroyers. Look at the kill ratio between the Executor and the Mon Calamari cruisers at Endor. There's a reason the Mon Cal cruisers were called "shrimp barbecues".
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Nov 12, 2016 22:53
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Guys I was playing War In The Outer Rim and, well, I've got some concerns about its commitment to historical accuracy. Playing as the Empire is literally impossible to win, I know the game isn't really able to handle severe historical divergence because it supposed to be fairly historical but but considering the Empire has about 30 times the production capacity of the Rebellion, you would think it would be at least possible to delay the outcome of the war. But it doesn't really matter what you do, you can win every battle you force with the Rebels but then you get these random losses that wipe out entire fleets and bases? I don't even know if the rebels have to field forces to do it, it just happens. I think they should really consider making things like production capacity and strategic deployment more significant, I know it's not strictly realistic because it didn't have much of an outcome on the war in real life but I still think someone should make a game like that. I'm tired of playing realistic simulator games like Jedi Knight, I wish people would make some games that are fun!
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Nov 12, 2016 23:05
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Well What Now posted:Depends if you count naval gunfire support or not. How often did you have tanks engaged by naval guns? Did the tanks ever shoot back?
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Nov 12, 2016 23:07
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Nude Bog Lurker posted:The Empire's real mistake was not building enough TIE Defenders and Executor-class Star Destroyers. Look at the kill ratio between the Executor and the Mon Calamari cruisers at Endor. There's a reason the Mon Cal cruisers were called "shrimp barbecues". The "shrimp barbecue" is actually a myth that for some reason just won't die. Sure, the early Mon Cal cruisers had some kinks (especially in the shield linkages), but they had them all worked out before Yavin, even. By Endor, your average Mon Cal had been upgraded with improved turbolasers and better fire control systems, but the really kicker were the redundant deflectors distributed across the hull. Without a single point of failure Mon Cal cruiser shields were far hardier than those of their imperial counterparts, and not vulnerable to a single lucky hit against the deflector generators like most Imperial capital ships were (part of why Rebellion starfighters were unusually effective). The Executor was a huge waste of resources, sure it looked impressive but they managed to build a grand total of ONE, at an obscene cost, and it was destroyed by an A-wing. The Empire would've been far better off if they'd invested the resources used to build the Executor into a few tried and tested Victory II's or better yet a pile of Lancer point defense frigates to keep the bombers off the big ships. I'll give you the Defenders, though, throughout the war the Empire was hampered by their lack of screening capability against Rebellion bombers. Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Nov 12, 2016 |
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Nov 12, 2016 23:10
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SeanBeansShako posted:
Yep. As bad as Joseph Bonaparte was, he can't compare with the amazing incompetence of Ferdinand VII. How do you go from "the Desired One" to "the Felon King" in under a decade? What kind of mismanagement and idiocracy is necessary for such a shift? And to top it all off, Ferdinand VII didn't even end French influence in Spain. After becoming the Felon King, he need to invite the Hundred Thousand Sons of Saint Louis to prop up his throne.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:14
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OwlFancier posted:Guys I was playing War In The Outer Rim and, well, I've got some concerns about its commitment to historical accuracy. Those are treachery rolls. The Empire's sector-level management was unbelievably corrupt and Palpatine constantly pitted them against each other to prevent them from becoming strong enough to challenge him. Check nearby fleets for any that are suspiciously low on ammo.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:19
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Really, though, the most interesting thing about the war was the use of special forces by both sides. From the Jedi remnants used by the Alliance to Darth Vaders hand picked troops, spec-ops had a huge effect on the war.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:22
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I hope you aren't basing your views on videogames and movies, folks. Check out Prof Zahn's stuff, shows a much more competent Imperial Military. TIE Fighter is a pretty good also. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PN_CP4SuoTU
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Nov 12, 2016 23:26
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I mean the empire is a perfect example of endlessly refining fighters to be pointless wonderwaffen. You have the TIE, which operates well as a general fighter/air superiority fighter and then how many resources are channeled into the tie advanced? The interceptor? The defender? The ghost? All of them aimed at exactly the same design goal - absolute nonsense.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:27
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It doesn't help that the TIE is so radically different from any other fighter or bomber type. Sure, it looks menacing, but it's not as effective as standard craft.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:42
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lenoon posted:I mean the empire is a perfect example of endlessly refining fighters to be pointless wonderwaffen. You have the TIE, which operates well as a general fighter/air superiority fighter and then how many resources are channeled into the tie advanced? The interceptor? The defender? The ghost? All of them aimed at exactly the same design goal - absolute nonsense. I have to disagree with you here, Yavin showed the entire galaxy what can happen without proper anti-fighter defenses in one form or another. The baseline TIE was seriously starting to show its age in the later phases of the war, routinely losing battles against rebel starfighters they outnumbered 10:1. The Interceptor performed far better, easily on par with an X-wing, and the Defender could go toe to toe with an A-wing and come out on top. The key, I think, was finally getting around to mounting shield generators on later TIE variants (something that was standard on most fighters since the Clone Wars), drastically increasing their survivability. Now, as to whether pursuing improved fighter designs was the best path for the Empire to take in the first place, I think you're right. Instead of trying to play catch-up with the Rebellion the Empire should've leveraged its immense industrial base to churn out piles and piles of anti-fighter picket ships like the Lancer (or an updated version thereof). Trying to fight experienced rebel pilots in superior machines was a bad idea, and it showed at Endor. If the Empire had invested in a proper fleet composition instead of just tons of capital ships with nothing smaller, there's no way a goddamn FREIGHTER of all things would be able to even get close to the Death Star II, much less inside the superstructure.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:42
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I don't know why the rebels even bothered, the empire could produce 10 dreadnoughts to their one and had an economy a hundred times their size
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Nov 12, 2016 23:43
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Crazycryodude posted:I have to disagree with you here, Yavin showed the entire galaxy what can happen without proper anti-fighter defenses in one form or another. The baseline TIE was seriously starting to show its age in the later phases of the war, routinely losing battles against rebel starfighters they outnumbered 10:1. The Interceptor performed far better, easily on par with an X-wing, and the Defender could go toe to toe with an A-wing and come out on top. The key, I think, was finally getting around to mounting shield generators on later TIE variants (something that was standard on most fighters since the Clone Wars), drastically increasing their survivability. Yeah, if they had focused on VT-49s I think they could have won. Look at the success of the YT-1300 in rebel service.
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Nov 13, 2016 00:00
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my dad posted:Uh... Could people please stop perpetuating this poo poo? The issues about Kosovo are a hell of a lot more complex than that. Not to the Serbs, to them it's still current events. They're kinda like Confederates that way.
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Nov 13, 2016 00:07
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Crazycryodude posted:The Executor was a huge waste of resources, sure it looked impressive but they managed to build a grand total of ONE, at an obscene cost, and it was destroyed by an A-wing. The Empire would've been far better off if they'd invested the resources used to build the Executor into a few tried and tested Victory II's or better yet a pile of Lancer point defense frigates to keep the bombers off the big ships. I'll give you the Defenders, though, throughout the war the Empire was hampered by their lack of screening capability against Rebellion bombers. Well, no. Vader's personal Executor was the poster boy of the ship class, but by the time of the battle of Endor, Fondor and Kuat had cranked out least 4 more out of what would later be many Executor-classes. They were probably past the point of diminishing returns, but the Empire's entire tactical methodology revolved around massive singular starships maintaining their local swarms of speedy TIEs rather than distributing throughout a whole fleet. It even seems to make sense when you consider how at the battle of Endor there were so many Star Destroyers they got in the way. I'd rather take a couple more Executors than waste resources on another stationary space station built around a massive weapon with a piddly firing rate that's only really good for getting rid of rebel-friendly planets. 'Course the second one was all a gambit to draw out the rebel fleet, which I can't argue with, considering how it worked, but they didn't bother to clear out the hostile natives around the shield generator that was the lynchpin of their entire plan, and everything fell apart from there. And of course, the Empire's habit of building obscenely huge and expensive warships actually came in handy when the one man in charge, along with his number two man bit the dust. The massive warships served as rallying points for the remnants of the Empire once they weren't receiving orders anymore. They kept the imperial cause alive after there wasn't an Emperor to hold things together. Although I suppose setting up your army to continue the fight long after it's been lost is a concept of dubious merit.
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Nov 13, 2016 00:39
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SimonCat posted:Not to the Serbs, to them it's still current events. They're kinda like Confederates that way.  You're talking to an actual Serb. I think he knows the subject better than you. Although granted, I don't; my dad, you mind ing about how much more complicated the issue is?
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Nov 13, 2016 00:41
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SimonCat posted:Not to the Serbs, to them it's still current events. They're kinda like Confederates that way. Well, considering Kosovo broke away less than a decade ago, and there's still a lot of unrest about the whole thing, it still is current events, and as such is a lot more complicated than one side just being out of touch angsty bad sports about the whole thing.
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Nov 13, 2016 00:52
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Vickers Mk.E Queue: Christie Combat Car T1/Convertible Medium Tank T3, Type 95, T-70, Dicker Max, T-62, Medium Mk.II Available for request:  T2E1 Light Tank M3A1 Combat Car T4 Combat Car M1 Light Tank M2  Medium Tank Mk.II Medium Tank Mk.III A1E1 Independent Vickers Mk.E  LTP T-37 with ShKAS ZIK-20 T-12 and T-24 T-55 HTZ-16 Wartime modifications of the T-37 and T-38 SG-122 76 mm gun mod of the Matilda  L-10 and L-30 Strv m/40 NEW  TK-3/TKS Trials of the TKS and C2P in the USSR 37 mm anti-tank gun  SR tanks  Renault NC Renault D1 Renault R35 Renault D2 Renault R40 Char B NEW  PzI Ausf. B PzI Ausf. C PzII Ausf. a though b PzIII Ausf. A PzIII Ausf. B through D PzIV Ausf. A through C PzIV Ausf. D through E Ensign Expendable fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Nov 13, 2016 |
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Nov 13, 2016 01:01
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This might get me banned, but sometimes I think Palpatine had the right idea. The Republic was garbage: it had no standing military (and let a weird religious order basically fight its civil war for it so actual citizens wouldn't be bothered) it was corrupt as gently caress, and frequently would rather fiddle while the outer rim burned because "oh we made this a monopoly and let these weird clannish aliens run a crucial part of the economy a couple hundred years ago, no lets let them blackmail us now in our existential crisis and do nothing" sorta deal that happened like 50 times in the clone wars. And it's not like the Jedi were all that ethical either, by the end, Yoda, Kidd Fisto, that creepy snake guy, all the heavies, were giving up padawans as sacrificial goats whenever the corrupt, bullshit senate got pissy about something. The Empire brought ORDER
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Nov 13, 2016 02:05
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Nebakenezzer posted:This might get me banned, but sometimes I think Palpatine had the right idea. The Republic was garbage: it had no standing military (and let a weird religious order basically fight its civil war for it so actual citizens wouldn't be bothered) it was corrupt as gently caress, and frequently would rather fiddle while the outer rim burned because "oh we made this a monopoly and let these weird clannish aliens run a crucial part of the economy a couple hundred years ago, no lets let them blackmail us now in our existential crisis and do nothing" sorta deal that happened like 50 times in the clone wars. And it's not like the Jedi were all that ethical either, by the end, Yoda, Kidd Fisto, that creepy snake guy, all the heavies, were giving up padawans as sacrificial goats whenever the corrupt, bullshit senate got pissy about something. Maybe you should read other sources than the 'official Imperial histiography'? Like, when all those paroled Imperial officers wrote their memoirs after the wars, let's just say they had every interest to portray the Republic as some sort of incompetent corrupt mess, and Palpatine's coup as some sort of necessary evil to save the Republic from the Senate. I know it's difficult to find other sources than official propaganda, given the years of total censorship, but the Space-wages of Destruction really tries to peel back the 'official story' to examine the true state of things during the final years of the First Republic.
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Nov 13, 2016 02:24
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Nebakenezzer posted:This might get me banned, but sometimes I think Palpatine had the right idea. The Republic was garbage: it had no standing military (and let a weird religious order basically fight its civil war for it so actual citizens wouldn't be bothered) it was corrupt as gently caress, and frequently would rather fiddle while the outer rim burned because "oh we made this a monopoly and let these weird clannish aliens run a crucial part of the economy a couple hundred years ago, no lets let them blackmail us now in our existential crisis and do nothing" sorta deal that happened like 50 times in the clone wars. And it's not like the Jedi were all that ethical either, by the end, Yoda, Kidd Fisto, that creepy snake guy, all the heavies, were giving up padawans as sacrificial goats whenever the corrupt, bullshit senate got pissy about something. You're also forgetting that a lot of the things you mention are a result of back room dealings by Palpatine in preparation for the eventual coup. He had decades in the Senate to mastermind this stuff. Read The Sleepwalkers: How the Galaxy Went to War in 22 BBY
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Nov 13, 2016 02:38
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Goddammit, I thought we'd banned all the Empire apologists. Mods?
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Nov 13, 2016 02:40
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the coronation of crooked leia was loving disgusting, first order is gonna build a beautiful starkiller base,
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Nov 13, 2016 02:43
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I got some leaks that Palpatine and Count Dooku were in cahoots, guys.
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Nov 13, 2016 02:49
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Cyrano4747 posted:I've got a 1935 or 6 or something copy of it in a box somewhere with a forward written by Bernard Rust, the Nazi minister of Culture and Education. I don't know how much of the text is different from whatever Goethe was reading, but holy crap that forward is Kultur_according_to_Nazis.txt Going exclusively by Wikipedia at this point, but apparently it was rewritten, reimagined, and used as a source for stage plays etc. rather extensively in the 18th and 19th centuries. Friedrich der Große was not a fan, and also kind of a dick: quote:Am 22. Februar 1784 schrieb Friedrich der Große an Myller, der seine Sammlung deutscher Dichtungen des Mittelalters (die unter anderem das Nibelungenlied und Wolframs Parzival enthielt) dem König gewidmet hatte, folgendes:
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Nov 13, 2016 02:59
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Everyone poasting "star wars as milhist" owes it to themselves to check out Legend of Galactic Heroes.
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Nov 13, 2016 03:13
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P-Mack posted:Everyone poasting "star wars as milhist" owes it to themselves to check out Legend of Galactic Heroes. I've tried to watch it like seven times but I just don't like looking at all the mannequin-men.
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Nov 13, 2016 03:26
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SlothfulCobra posted:
Exactly, I know the New Republic has whitewashed history in the decades following the Battle of Endor, the Empire didn't die overnight despite the loss of the Emperor, Vader and many other Imperial Officers. With the exception of Thrawn (Imagine what would have happened if he was at Endor commanding the fleet instead of that toady Piett) they all used Executors to decent effect. Each ship was essentially a self contained fleet and army that could hold entire sectors with limited support. However nope in the last few years were supposed to forget those 40+ years of conflict and just accept the only remnant of the Empire that survived were those weird New Order fuckers in the Unknown Regions... I.E BULLSHIT. Galactic war can't be one in one decisive clash like that. sullat posted:Maybe you should read other sources than the 'official Imperial histiography'? Like, when all those paroled Imperial officers wrote their memoirs after the wars, let's just say they had every interest to portray the Republic as some sort of incompetent corrupt mess, and Palpatine's coup as some sort of necessary evil to save the Republic from the Senate. I know it's difficult to find other sources than official propaganda, given the years of total censorship, but the Space-wages of Destruction really tries to peel back the 'official story' to examine the true state of things during the final years of the First Republic. What I find baffling is just the sheer number of deflections in the Imperial Starfighter Corps, the vast majority of rebel starfighters pilots involved throughout the key battles of the war were formed by these defectors. Most notably Wedge Antilles, who somehow survived not one, but two Death Star attacks. However my real question is where the pilots present at these battles representatives of the Rebel Alliance as a whole, or were these defectors grouped up into Elite Squadrons for defending these major Rebel Bases or for fleet actions? Jack2142 fucked around with this message at 03:30 on Nov 13, 2016 |
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Nov 13, 2016 03:28
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