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Darth Walrus posted:Very true, though that doesn't, to the best of my recollection, include the rust belt states that Trump flipped. Could be wrong about that, but it's those, rather than states like North Carolina, that were at the core of the 'it's about economics' argument. It certainly did for WIsconsin.
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Nov 12, 2016 15:37
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Terrible Opinions posted:Except we can explain it via voter apathy. Millions fewer people voted in this election, most of them of the poorest income brackets and almost all of those democrat. So of course Trump is going to get a higher percentage of the poor vote if his opposition's poor supporters aren't voting. That's how percentages work. There have been numerous reports on Trump receiving surprise support from rural whites who haven't voted much normally. Many of these people voted for Obama previously. Writing it off as plain bigotry is a big mistake; part of the reason Trump won wasn't that he was a bigot (these people don't tend to care one way or the other) it's that he promised them the ability to make an honest living again, because these people have seen all their jobs disappear and culturally consider taking welfare to be admitting one's failure as a human being. This is a demo that's shafted and ignored on both sides of the aisle, and Trump was the candidate that actually paid attention to them, spoke simply, and promised them the one thing they want more than anything else. They're people in desperate poverty grasping at what looks like hope when a salesman presents it to them, not assholes who want to burn everything, and it's going to do liberals no good at all to keep treating them like they're just dumb bigoted rednecks instead of human beings. Note that this is about the people who actually went out and voted for Trump, and not the people who went to his rallies, who I have no problem in labeling as bigots.
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Nov 12, 2016 16:02
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I've seen this Jonathan Pie video passed around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLG9g7BcjKs It seems to be be getting shared and praised by the kind of smart morons who think SSC is a cool place. Also Totalbiscuit shows up in the comments. I can't watch it myself because I will throw up if I experience another angry white guy rollin' up his sleeves and tellin' it like it is Is it as bad as I fear? Who is this guy?
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Nov 12, 2016 16:04
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Take this as consolation, the internet assholes willingly shed their lovely disguise. Should the electors change their mind because they don't want a nazi dictator in power, be the first in nailing them against the wall.
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Nov 12, 2016 17:57
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Sax Solo posted:I've seen this Jonathan Pie video passed around: he has progressive opinions in his other videos but hates trump, first line is basically "I'd vote for Lucifer over Trump", but he had been calling that Trump would win for a year. Has a bunch of other satirical videos where he plays a British reporter in between takes saying what he actually feels. Should just watch it and see what you think.
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Nov 12, 2016 18:25
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Sax Solo posted:I've seen this Jonathan Pie video passed around: It's not that bad, I got linked it by a british friend of mine. IIRC it's mostly "Trump is worse than the devil, so Hillary and the DNC were a special level of bad that they managed to so thoroughly gently caress it all up."
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Nov 12, 2016 20:09
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Rush Limbo posted:Say what you like about the Fuhrer but he did kill Hitler, which is probably the main thing he got right.
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Nov 12, 2016 21:38
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Puppy Time posted:There have been numerous reports on Trump receiving surprise support from rural whites who haven't voted much normally. Many of these people voted for Obama previously. Writing it off as plain bigotry is a big mistake; part of the reason Trump won wasn't that he was a bigot (these people don't tend to care one way or the other) it's that he promised them the ability to make an honest living again, because these people have seen all their jobs disappear and culturally consider taking welfare to be admitting one's failure as a human being. I would like to know how you came to the conclusion that rural whites of all people don't care about bigotry one way or the other.
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Nov 12, 2016 21:52
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I'm seeing a lot of "this is the Left's fault for not helping the people who continually elected wild-eyed, magical thinking lunatics to obstruct, dismantle, and viciously slander every attempt to do so," or "We should have bent over more to flatter people who kept screeching that Obama was the Ur-Mullah Of The Communist Plane Of The 9 Hitlers" which is what that video boils down to even if it is kind of cathartic to hear in its own way. So crossposted from Facebook: Of course people in struggling rural areas deserve to be listened to and have their needs addressed, but don't act like heaping scorn on people for their willingness to overlook, and thus legitimize and empower, some of the worst aspects of human nature is even in the same ballpark as actually legitimizing and empowering some of the worst aspects of human nature. It's not condescension to hold people accountable for the fallout from their terrible ideas when they had every opportunity to step back and say "you know what, this is a dealbreaker." By all means reevaluate or discard the "What's The Matter With Kansas" narrative, but don't replace one form of "those poor rubes just don't know any better" with another. They should have known better. Edit: A lot of my friends are really scared and some of them are already being harassed for not being an assembly-line WASP. People have every right to be pissed off and not humble themselves in the face of this cruelty. Frogisis has a new favorite as of 22:31 on Nov 12, 2016 |
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Nov 12, 2016 22:26
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ate all the Oreos posted:I would like to know how you came to the conclusion that rural whites of all people don't care about bigotry one way or the other.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:09
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as a poor white person from a poor white blue-collar working-class family who was raised in and has lived my entire life in conservative rural poor-people working-class places, and yet who somehow managed to figure out that being a virulent racist is a bad thing, "poor white blue-collar working-class people are just too stupid to think critically about things like racism" just feels like a really condescending point of view
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Nov 13, 2016 00:05
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InediblePenguin posted:as a poor white person from a poor white blue-collar working-class family who was raised in and has lived my entire life in conservative rural poor-people working-class places, and yet who somehow managed to figure out that being a virulent racist is a bad thing, "poor white blue-collar working-class people are just too stupid to think critically about things like racism" just feels like a really condescending point of view Half the time they just omit "white" from "white working class" because we're supposed to forget that rural Democrats, blacks, and LGBT people exist and are also often struggling to make ends meet.
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Nov 13, 2016 00:14
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Sax Solo posted:I've seen this Jonathan Pie video passed around: Part of it's running down why Trump should've been unelectable, the next part why Clinton was a terrible candidate with a wretched campaign, then it veers into their personal bugaboo about free speech. Lots of caterwauling about how the election was lost because there wasn't debate about racism, some sideswipe about a gymnast I don't know being too racist to compete and this is a bad thing, and the usual 'PC police' crying act.
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Nov 13, 2016 00:31
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The Vosgian Beast posted:Half the time they just omit "white" from "white working class" because we're supposed to forget that rural Democrats, blacks, and LGBT people exist and are also often struggling to make ends meet. Yeah, people who claim "it's about class, not race" also tend to somehow overlook the idea of "working class" people who aren't white, and there's little consideration of differences in voting patterns, needs, and priorities between working class whites and other working class demographics. "Working class" in my observation tends to effectively be used as a dogwhistle to mean "white conservative rednecks" or something
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Nov 13, 2016 00:50
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InediblePenguin posted:as a poor white person from a poor white blue-collar working-class family who was raised in and has lived my entire life in conservative rural poor-people working-class places, and yet who somehow managed to figure out that being a virulent racist is a bad thing, "poor white blue-collar working-class people are just too stupid to think critically about things like racism" just feels like a really condescending point of view Living in an information bubble and having difficulty breaking out of it is hardly something unique to poor, rural white people - just look at how many people were blindsided by sixty million people voting for Donald Trump. It's a systemic problem, not something that befalls only certain people because they're inferior. Kind of like how one person making a tidy packet and retiring as a millionaire is not an argument against race or class making wealth accumulation more difficult.
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Nov 13, 2016 01:17
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The fact that so many people are harping so heavily on the bigotry thing while completely ignoring the aspect of "these are desperately poor people who want jobs, and only one candidate is directly promising them that" is an example of the problem. There IS a race problem, yes. There absolutely is. But most of the class-based solutions in politics tend to focus more on urban populations than rural ones, and, because the rural poor are mostly white, they don't see much advocacy on their part in general. It's a huge problem that's overlooked by most politicians, and it's come back to bite us in the rear end. Pro Publica has a good article profiling them. This is in no way saying that there aren't problems for rural minorities. It's just that just because rural white people are white does NOT mean that they're not suffering crushing poverty, and the fact that so many liberals are willing to just brush them to the side and ignore their problems is hosed up.
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Nov 13, 2016 01:45
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InediblePenguin posted:Yeah, people who claim "it's about class, not race" also tend to somehow overlook the idea of "working class" people who aren't white, and there's little consideration of differences in voting patterns, needs, and priorities between working class whites and other working class demographics. "Working class" in my observation tends to effectively be used as a dogwhistle to mean "white conservative rednecks" or something Nah, the white working class people are focusing on in this election are ones who've been voting Democrat for years but went for the guy who promised their factory jobs back.
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Nov 13, 2016 01:52
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Puppy Time posted:The fact that so many people are harping so heavily on the bigotry thing while completely ignoring the aspect of "these are desperately poor people who want jobs, and only one candidate is directly promising them that" is an example of the problem. They're not forgotten you idiot, Obamacare provided coverage for tens of thousands of them, which they are now going to lose under Trump, and they consistently vote against their own interests over and over and over in local elections, even when given the option not to. For many of them it is a matter of spite, not desperation.
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Nov 13, 2016 02:04
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Baron Corbyn posted:Nah, the white working class people are focusing on in this election are ones who've been voting Democrat for years but went for the guy who promised their factory jobs back. I was talking, in that post, about the larger phenomenon of people saying "working class" while specifically meaning "white working class"
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Nov 13, 2016 02:15
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I Killed GBS posted:They're not forgotten you idiot, Obamacare provided coverage for tens of thousands of them, which they are now going to lose under Trump, and they consistently vote against their own interests over and over and over in local elections, even when given the option not to. For many of them it is a matter of spite, not desperation. "Obamacare doubled our premiums"
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Nov 13, 2016 02:29
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The good news is that if there's one thing I've learned from Something Sensitive continuing to exist after nu-GBS was instated, it's that spiteful people have unlimited amounts of spite and will never ever be content no matter how much things go their way.
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Nov 13, 2016 02:45
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hackbunny posted:"Obamacare doubled our premiums" In every one of those cases, the coverage they had before didn't actually cover anything. It was bullshit exploitative "coverage" that basically amounted to you paying the Insurance company for nothing. Obamacare was a lovely compromise, but they're going to roll back even the small amount of good it did and not replace it with anything.
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Nov 13, 2016 02:58
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I Killed GBS posted:In every one of those cases, the coverage they had before didn't actually cover anything. It was bullshit exploitative "coverage" that basically amounted to you paying the Insurance company for nothing. But we need to give him a chaaaaance And by "chance" we mean "assume he's going to do the implausible good things he promised to do and none of the bad things" Usually "giving people a chance" doesn't involve assuming they lied, but w/e
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Nov 13, 2016 03:00
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WendyO posted:Part of it's running down why Trump should've been unelectable, the next part why Clinton was a terrible candidate with a wretched campaign, then it veers into their personal bugaboo about free speech. Lots of caterwauling about how the election was lost because there wasn't debate about racism, some sideswipe about a gymnast I don't know being too racist to compete and this is a bad thing, and the usual 'PC police' crying act. A lot of the second half boils down to the hard-to-disagree-with "People on the right are too scared to actually have their opinions challenged and people on the left are not helping." He makes the very good point that people who voted for Trump are not necessarily all "the bad ones," they're not all racists or sexists, a lot of them voted for him for the same reasons people voted for Obama, and the Democratic Party needs to stand for something and have a big, loud, obvious argument beyond 'not fuckin' that' if they want to survive.
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Nov 13, 2016 03:33
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Keep in mind that Jonathan Pie works for RT, aka the guys who helped Donald get elected.
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Nov 13, 2016 03:38
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Sometimes you try to retrain the dog that's been trained to savagely attack black people, and you make progress even while it keeps hurting people, and you think you've done it but then it just loving goes for Burl Ives' throat out of nowhere and you have to gun it down. Spoilers for the movie White Dog
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Nov 13, 2016 03:39
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Trump gave easy "We're gonna have the best people do the best things and also we'll kick out all the mexicans and muslims and take away the rights from those uppity homos" answers. I don't care how mad people where about factory jobs, those are never coming back and 'economic anxiety' is no excuse for hatecrimes.
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Nov 13, 2016 03:56
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Somfin posted:He makes the very good point that people who voted for Trump are not necessarily all "the bad ones," they're not all racists or sexists, a lot of them voted for him for the same reasons people voted for Obama Yeah, but: Obama: I just w- Lefties: Drrroooooones! Murderer! Hillary: Stronger to- Lefties: Wall Streeeeet! Hack shill robot! DWS! WWC: I'd like some jobs and don't give a poo poo about the harm down to brown people in the process, not even thinking about them at all. Lefties: Fellows, we must be nuanced.
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Nov 13, 2016 04:15
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Sax Solo posted:Yeah, but: Not emptyquoting
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Nov 13, 2016 04:23
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Sax Solo posted:Yeah, but: I don't really think a vague demographic group of voters can be compared to an individual candidate in terms of moral responsibility. Apples and oranges.
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Nov 13, 2016 06:25
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InediblePenguin posted:as a poor white person from a poor white blue-collar working-class family who was raised in and has lived my entire life in conservative rural poor-people working-class places, and yet who somehow managed to figure out that being a virulent racist is a bad thing, "poor white blue-collar working-class people are just too stupid to think critically about things like racism" just feels like a really condescending point of view I don't think they're too "stupid" at all - most of the massively racist people I actually know have twisted themselves into logic pretzels to justify why racism is actually how real science says the world works. Hell look at what thread we're in right now. I just think that rural towns still carry a whole lot of structural and cultural bigotry left over from the Jim Crowe era and that leads to people being huge racists, regardless of actual intelligence. Puppy Time posted:The fact that so many people are harping so heavily on the bigotry thing while completely ignoring the aspect of "these are desperately poor people who want jobs, and only one candidate is directly promising them that" is an example of the problem. A majority of desperately poor people voted Hillary. A majority of people whose greatest concern was "the economy" also voted hillary. A majority of people who think the greatest problem is "immigration" and "terrorism" voted trump. It's bigotry dude. e: well okay it's not only bigotry just like anything is not only one thing but I don't think harping heavily on bigotry is terribly unjustified Shame Boy has a new favorite as of 06:51 on Nov 13, 2016 |
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Nov 13, 2016 06:47
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I suspect a lot of these people want to be not racist, or at least tell themselves they do, but have barely moved on from the understanding of racism you'd find in a pop-up book about MLK. And then living in these overwhelmingly white enclaves lets them stay in denial that anti-racism is any more than naive, down-home, hyper-individualistic colorblindness. Straight up George Wallace racism absolutely put him over the top though I mean holy poo poo
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Nov 13, 2016 11:01
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Frogisis posted:I suspect a lot of these people want to be not racist, or at least tell themselves they do, but have barely moved on from the understanding of racism you'd find in a pop-up book about MLK. And then living in these overwhelmingly white enclaves lets them stay in denial that anti-racism is any more than naive, down-home, hyper-individualistic colorblindness. This is it. Most of the people who "just want less immigrants" only think you're racist if you're an actual robe-wearing KKK member. Racism, to them, is something other people do.
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Nov 13, 2016 11:48
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I think a lot of them are also just resistant to structural explanations for problems in general, because bootstraps. Admitting that's possible would mean admitting the same thing could happen to them and they couldn't just sack-up their way out of it. Maybe coining a term like "accessory to racism" would keep people from just shutting down and covering their ears, since it makes them sound like they've only been tricked instead of reacting like it's the gentile version of Blood Libel. Edit: Too bad most of the people invested and passionate enough to engage in these conversations with people are also so into "name & shame" tactics that they constantly shun putting things in your own words, because as everyone knows, online social justice terminology can never backfire or fail, it can only BE failed. Frogisis has a new favorite as of 12:38 on Nov 13, 2016 |
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Nov 13, 2016 12:04
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Eventually minorities get sick of coddling bigots
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Nov 13, 2016 16:12
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I Killed GBS posted:Eventually minorities get sick of coddling bigots And it's amazing to watch people swing wildly between "Everybody should do it all for themselves without any help!" and "HOW DARE YOU STOP CODDLING ME 24/7!"
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Nov 13, 2016 17:32
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The Vosgian Beast posted:Sometimes you try to retrain the dog that's been trained to savagely attack black people, and you make progress even while it keeps hurting people, and you think you've done it but then it just loving goes for Burl Ives' throat out of nowhere and you have to gun it down. Fantastic movie.
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Nov 13, 2016 21:19
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Over a decade on this is still relevant http://exiledonline.com/we-the-spiteful/
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Nov 13, 2016 23:45
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https://twitter.com/Sargon_of_Akkad/status/797540801643483137 E:  im the gamergate Fututor Magnus has a new favorite as of 00:13 on Nov 14, 2016 |
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Nov 14, 2016 00:09
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Rush Limbo posted:Over a decade on this is still relevant Spreading this everywhere right now. I started a garbage fire on my Facebook by stating that literally everyone who voted Trump, knowing who and what Trump was, is functionally a racist and deserves to be called one. Helped clean up the "friends" list nicely. The celebs in the "likes" section were pretty good too.
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Nov 14, 2016 00:56
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