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bloodychill posted:There's definite truth to this. I just watched this a couple days ago where the guy doing the video makes the point even though Dark Souls is a great series of games, Bloodborne is the best first entry because it teaches you how to play the series the "right way" (read: the most fun way) while the other games do not. Assume that I don't want to watch something for an hour and a half right now (though it's something to favourite for work), what's his general point? Something about the werewolf at the start and Gasgoigne? Oh and since I'm first post on a new page, uh, yeah, I got a couple of hours into XIII and quit like a quitter. I watched a let's play of XIII-2 that made it seem like a pretty fun game with some pretty bad writing.
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Nov 12, 2016 18:56
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The short version is that Demons and Dark Souls start by A) Killing you (so you learn that you're going to die a lot) and B) the first thing you get in Dark Souls is a shield. Not a weapon, not a catalyst, a shield. The game is basically telling you to play it very safe and slowly, which is the absolutely worst and least fun way to play them. Bloodborne gets around this by not giving you a shield at all, and makes you play it in such a way that your only options for survival are learning to dodge and parry, which makes all the Souls games much more interesting to play.
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Nov 12, 2016 19:31
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Artix posted:The short version is that Demons and Dark Souls start by A) Killing you (so you learn that you're going to die a lot) and B) the first thing you get in Dark Souls is a shield. Not a weapon, not a catalyst, a shield. The game is basically telling you to play it very safe and slowly, which is the absolutely worst and least fun way to play them. Bloodborne gets around this by not giving you a shield at all, and makes you play it in such a way that your only options for survival are learning to dodge and parry, which makes all the Souls games much more interesting to play. The thing is though that Bloodborne and Dark Souls have different gameplay philosophies. Bloodborne is focused on putting you into the role of a hunter, an aggressive maniac who dives right in and keeps hitting their opponent even when they're getting hit back. Dark Souls is more about giving you options, like magic and ranged and shields and dodging. So it starts out by preparing you for basic survival.
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Nov 12, 2016 20:05
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Artix posted:The short version is that Demons and Dark Souls start by A) Killing you (so you learn that you're going to die a lot) and B) the first thing you get in Dark Souls is a shield. Not a weapon, not a catalyst, a shield. The game is basically telling you to play it very safe and slowly, which is the absolutely worst and least fun way to play them. Bloodborne gets around this by not giving you a shield at all, and makes you play it in such a way that your only options for survival are learning to dodge and parry, which makes all the Souls games much more interesting to play. Hm I mean Bloodborne also starts by killing you (unless you're very patient with the werewolf). To be honest I think the bigger difference in teaching is the first (more or less) boss being basically you for 2/3rds of the fight, which shows you all the cool things you can do and effective ways to play - and then turning into Manus from the DLC for the last 3rd except you can still parry him. The first boss in DS teaches you about dying and you really should dodge him a bunch but him being a giant monster straight off the bat and not really using the mechanics of the game makes him a much worse teacher. Maybe if he just didn't give a crap about your shield you'd have to learn more about dodging. That said, I was a big fan of my shield in my SL1 play, even when I wasn't parrying. Anyway, to get back to the topic of game design - yes, I can see how this argument works. One thing BB doesn't do is put an actual time limit on you, outside of running out of healing items. I guess the fact that XIII has basically resourceless healing (is that right?) means that they needed a different restriction for the guidance to be meaningful.
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Nov 12, 2016 20:08
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In addition, because most monsters and bosses in Bloodborne keep moving forward during their attacks, you learn that turtling and moving backward are less effective than dodging or retaliating while the ability to reclaim life encourages players to be more bold and stay on the offensive. While these things aren't in the Souls games, you can still play in that style very effectively and it's (subjectively speaking) more fun. And to connect back to FF13, this is also very true of it. Turtling is generally not very effective and the game tries through various incentives like the timers to keep you on the offensive. bloodychill fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Nov 12, 2016 |
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Nov 12, 2016 20:13
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I tried out the judgement demo and XV is going to be beyond epic.
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Nov 12, 2016 21:20
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So 40 minutes into FFXIII:LR on the pc and it seems par for the course in all this batshit it throws at you. Why couldn't they just explain the premise in the first scene? How does this compare to Majora? Anything glaringly obnoxious or missable?
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Nov 12, 2016 21:58
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Inspector Gesicht posted:So 40 minutes into FFXIII:LR on the pc and it seems par for the course in all this batshit it throws at you. Why couldn't they just explain the premise in the first scene? How does this compare to Majora? Anything glaringly obnoxious or missable? I guess nothing is technically missable since you can keep looping over and over in ng+. But yes there are a few things you can miss out on in 1 playthrough. Other than that don't feel the need to clear each area in one go. If one is getting too hard, start another area.
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Nov 12, 2016 22:00
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Inspector Gesicht posted:So 40 minutes into FFXIII:LR on the pc and it seems par for the course in all this batshit it throws at you. Why couldn't they just explain the premise in the first scene? How does this compare to Majora? Anything glaringly obnoxious or missable? In general, if someone specifies a time ("come back here tomorrow at noon") you better be there or you'll permanently miss it. Otherwise, just explore and find stuff.
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Nov 12, 2016 22:05
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Inspector Gesicht posted:So 40 minutes into FFXIII:LR on the pc and it seems par for the course in all this batshit it throws at you. Why couldn't they just explain the premise in the first scene? How does this compare to Majora? Anything glaringly obnoxious or missable? "Time is hosed and the world is ending. You area Valkyrie collecting souls for god. " Is the entirety of the premise and it's explained in the opening cutscene and tutorial sections.
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Nov 12, 2016 22:50
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In Training posted:I tried out the judgement demo and XV is going to be beyond epic. What happens in the judgement demo?
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Nov 13, 2016 00:12
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ImpAtom posted:I think I've said it before but there are very few concepts in FF13 that are bad, it's almost entirely execution. If the linearity of Cocoon had been handled in a way that made people less antsy then Pulse's freedom and desolation would have been a much more impactful element than it already was. For me, the cardinal sin of the original FF13 was how long it stuck you with the two-person parties that didn't take advantage of the depth of the game's combat system. I know they wanted to get all their story beats in or whatever, but it just made the gameplay for almost half of the game extremely tedious and it's not like those sequences made the overall narrative of the game less of a muddled trainwreck.
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Nov 13, 2016 03:38
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13 hours before you can move your party. 13.
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Nov 13, 2016 03:43
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In FF6 you can't choose your party for half the game either and people say that's one of its strongest points
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Nov 13, 2016 03:44
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In Training posted:In FF6 you can't choose your party for half the game either and people say that's one of its strongest points It's all contextual, though, isn't it? Maybe it would be more comparable if, say, you couldn't use Blitzes or Tools until the Floating Continent.
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Nov 13, 2016 03:48
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In Training posted:In FF6 you can't choose your party for half the game either and people say that's one of its strongest points But you can actually pick your party really early in 6? Like, sometimes you have to bring a specific character or two, but you're pretty much free to pick your party after the 3-story split, which is only a couple hours in.
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Nov 13, 2016 03:54
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FF6's combat isn't completely hobbled when you don't have a full party, though.
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Nov 13, 2016 04:01
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Vanille/Sazh was the slowest poo poo possible
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Nov 13, 2016 04:03
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I wanna play ff6 again..... but not without trophies
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Nov 13, 2016 04:08
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Tae posted:13 hours before you can move your party. EVERY PICTURE IS SO. DENSE. So much meaning in every single decision put into this game. "It's gonna be great," said Toriyama, walking next to his intern responsible for holding up the life size replica of Lightning-sama to boost his morale.
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Nov 13, 2016 04:25
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Tae posted:Vanille/Sazh was the slowest poo poo possible Hrm, this party works pretty slowly to build up gauge, lets throw a shitload of enemies at you that require staggering to kill.
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Nov 13, 2016 04:32
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I didn't find it that bad? Saboteur works as well as Commando for slowing down the stagger gauge and I even killed most of the 'you should really avoid these' enemies. Being stuck with Hope/Lighting for like 12 hours seemed worse. And on that note fuuuuuuck you Proudclad rematch just gently caress off.
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Nov 13, 2016 04:37
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Sakurazuka posted:I didn't find it that bad? Saboteur works as well as Commando for slowing down the stagger gauge and I even killed most of the 'you should really avoid these' enemies. Being stuck with Hope/Lighting for like 12 hours seemed worse. No the worst is Hope + Snow because a) Snow sucks and b) the velocycles or whatever they're called is the first and last time outside of endgame content where you will just flat out wipe if you aren't sentinel which I get why they included that to try and teach you that Sentinel is cool and good but boy was that not the best way to tackle it.
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Nov 13, 2016 04:38
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Oh yeah I blocked that bit out of my memory. At least it was pretty short.
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Nov 13, 2016 04:43
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Sakurazuka posted:Oh yeah I blocked that bit out of my memory. At least it was pretty short. Its like 6-7 fights long but it just suuuuuuucks. Thankfully your reward is getting a 3-person fight for the first time since, uh, Warmech?
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Nov 13, 2016 04:48
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Sakurazuka posted:I didn't find it that bad? Saboteur works as well as Commando for slowing down the stagger gauge and I even killed most of the 'you should really avoid these' enemies. Being stuck with Hope/Lighting for like 12 hours seemed worse. I think like 60% of the people who played the game didn't realize that SAB slows the stagger meter which is the whole point of that section
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Nov 13, 2016 04:53
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In Training posted:I think like 60% of the people who played the game didn't realize that SAB slows the stagger meter which is the whole point of that section Tbh honest I only knew because I've been reading people complaining about the game here for like 6 years.
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Nov 13, 2016 05:02
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In Training posted:I think like 60% of the people who played the game didn't realize that SAB slows the stagger meter which is the whole point of that section I'm like 99% certain the game even mentions it. Problematically it mentions it as the same size as all the other tutorial crap, it sure as poo poo doesn't give a crap if you've read it once that text box vanishes, and its in the like 12 millionth tutorial tip you've seen by that point.
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Nov 13, 2016 05:05
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Gologle posted:EVERY PICTURE IS SO. DENSE. So much meaning in every single decision put into this game. "It's gonna be great," said Toriyama, walking next to his intern responsible for holding up the life size replica of Lightning-sama to boost his morale. So good.  Little late for Tales chat, but y'all should skip most of the series. Play Tales of Destiny though, that game's great. And when the Republican party builds an Aethersphere to escape the working class, you'll know you were warned!
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Nov 13, 2016 05:24
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Barudak posted:I'm like 99% certain the game even mentions it. Problematically it mentions it as the same size as all the other tutorial crap, it sure as poo poo doesn't give a crap if you've read it once that text box vanishes, and its in the like 12 millionth tutorial tip you've seen by that point. Yeah but even so, when you debuff an enemy it boosts the stagger meter and begins to drain noticeably slower. Come on people.
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Nov 13, 2016 07:02
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In Training posted:Yeah but even so, when you debuff an enemy it boosts the stagger meter and begins to drain noticeably slower. Come on people. I wouldn't know how anything worked in FF13 if there wasn't a codex I had to read to learn it.
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Nov 13, 2016 07:22
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In Training posted:Yeah but even so, when you debuff an enemy it boosts the stagger meter and begins to drain noticeably slower. Come on people. To be fair nearly everything you do boosts the stagger meter, so you have to specifically watch out for the stagger drop rate to clue in on it if you didn't read the tutorial. Also agreeing that the Hope/Snow segments were the worst. Too bad that that's virtually the only time Snow's actually in a party after you get the Crystarium til uhh chapter 11 or something.
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Nov 13, 2016 07:24
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Grozz Nuy posted:For me, the cardinal sin of the original FF13 was how long it stuck you with the two-person parties that didn't take advantage of the depth of the game's combat system. I know they wanted to get all their story beats in or whatever, but it just made the gameplay for almost half of the game extremely tedious and it's not like those sequences made the overall narrative of the game less of a muddled trainwreck. Same. Introduce Fang from the start, and split the party into Fang/Lightning/Hope and Snow/Sazh/Vanille. That would have been a lot more fun, and the roles are fairly balanced.
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Nov 13, 2016 07:27
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Snow's there in the Palamecia!  You just can't use him. 
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Nov 13, 2016 07:28
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Does Fang actually interact with Sazh at all? Other than accidentally being the catalyst for Dajh I don't think they had anything to do with each other during the game. Similarly, Hope never really talks to Sazh.
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Nov 13, 2016 07:33
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Not really aside from a throwaway line here or there. Lightning and Vanille don't have much to do with each other either.
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Nov 13, 2016 07:38
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Electric Phantasm posted:What happens in the judgement demo? It's the first half of chapter 1
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Nov 13, 2016 08:11
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Nov 13, 2016 08:29
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Thinking about it I'd probably be way more interested and engaged in FFXV if it didn't even have the Final Fantasy name and was just entirely its own thing. I know that's weird to say about a Final Fantasy game of all things, but the thing I've always liked about the whole FF series is that they're really creative and imaginative both in story and gameplay while having a really consistent common core of both story elements and mechanics. They all do completely different things with that core and take it in completely different directions, but they're still undeniably in the same series as far as both gameplay and presentation. Nothing I've really seen of FFXV makes me feel like it's got that same core. It doesn't even feel like the same genre, it feels more like a weird open-world action game with RPG elements to keep it rolling. It looks like it's probably good at whatever it's doing, and if it was delivering that on its own terms I might like it. But it's called 'Final Fantasy', and it just doesn't feel like it suits that name.
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Nov 13, 2016 09:00
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Cleretic posted:but the thing I've always liked about the whole FF series is that they're really creative and imaginative both in story and gameplay while having a really consistent common core of both story elements Except that hasn't really been true since 6 moving forward. Since they started writing actual stories for the games they kind of move heavily away from old concepts, keeping them in name or very loose association if they kept them at all. 6 to 7 to 9 to 10 have very little in common w/r/t lore or setting, minus the name of a few attack names here and there.
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Nov 13, 2016 09:06
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