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the popes toes posted:conservative PA here Mother of all the gods these people are the people I just want to shake and then take them on a loving Christmas Carol esc tour of reasons as to why the whole idea of what they hold to be important is so utterly daft. Not even in a bad way, just in a "work does not enoble the soul" way. I encounter so many people like this working in a service industry setting as well, over in the UK. It's just maddening.
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Nov 13, 2016 15:54
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Lightning Knight posted:Factories are coming back, with much fewer job openings that are generally higher education requirements because of robots. hmm, and these factories are run with massive tax subsidies too. i wonder if that has an effect on them being able to afford robots instead of workers quote:The point is, there's a lot of things we can do for these people and we can give them jobs, but we can't give them the same jobs their parents had. Unless you're brilliant plan is to outlaw robots. Frankly they should own the robots collectively, but that would be socialism and we can't have that. hillary offered absolutely nothing. what's your solution? quote:Ah yes, let's resign ourselves to immigrants getting poo poo on, it's not like this country was built on the backs of slaves and immigrants working for nothing or anything. gently caress off, i'm an emigrant/immigrant currently getting poo poo on. if you actually cared about us you wouldn't support people like clinton who wanted to deport children
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Nov 13, 2016 15:54
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Josef bugman posted:Why are factory jobs desirable? Is it because of what they do, or because of the security and money they represented? If we moved into simply having everything produced by robot labour, as we seem to be moving towards, no-one would really care to do the dangerous or dirty or smelly jobs. It is the fact of purpose and security and the ability to purchase things. Factory jobs are desirable not because of anything in and of themselves but just because jobs are desirable; as a general rule people enjoy having productive work to do and feel better about themselves for doing it, and there's an obvious social benefit if everyone is able to provide for themselves with the fruits of that labor It's not trade wars or tariffs just socialism to say, have a government mandate that any workplace being closed, offshored or made redundant by a merger is required to be offered to be sold off to the workers and subsidies to be provide to credit unions and banks to provide loans to these workers, who can then continue to run the facility perhaps at less of a profit than it would make if everything was done in india or china, a decision that autocratic corporate structures are incapable of making
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Nov 13, 2016 15:55
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The only thing people are going to do is read point 13 and write you off for being a bigot. The fact of the matter is that Clintonistas are only liberal in the sense that they support token gestures that don't actually impact their pocketbooks or cushy white lifestyles. They do the equivalent of Facebook Liking progressive causes and summarily pat themselves on the back for what a good job they did yelling at the racist/retweeting the meme about women in video games/listicle about Ghostbusters and go home.
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Nov 13, 2016 15:55
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I swear I am going to find the priest that founded the "work makes the soul noble" thing from back in the mesopotamian era, dig him up and kick his skeletal remains up and down until my own foot is blood and gristle.
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Nov 13, 2016 15:57
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Condiv posted:hmm, and these factories are run with massive tax subsidies too. i wonder if that has an effect on them being able to afford robots instead of workers I'm not sure, that sounds like baseless speculation that you should have to prove instead of assuming its true. Government isn't waving a magic wand of neoliberalism to make automation happening, it's happening because it's cheaper and more efficient and the workers who are left like it.
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Nov 13, 2016 15:57
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the popes toes posted:13. We really don't give a poo poo about gays and other weird people. Do not loving care. They can do whatever the gently caress they want - this is America right? I want to believe this, I really do. But people like Pence scare me and when they're elected, I become wary of their electorate. I know (most) nobody wants people to suffer, but... quote:But if you focus on them while I'm feeling excluded because there's no work for me, gently caress 'em. This on the other hand is a good example of how neoliberal, FYGM moneyism is just loving us over. I will not let people use me as a tool to steal money and lives from others.
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Nov 13, 2016 15:57
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Josef bugman posted:Why are factory jobs desirable? Is it because of what they do, or because of the security and money they represented? If we moved into simply having everything produced by robot labour, as we seem to be moving towards, no-one would really care to do the dangerous or dirty or smelly jobs. It is the fact of purpose and security and the ability to purchase things. they aren't specifically, but there's a dearth of well-paying blue collar work, and it's something our society has to deal with. not everyone's gonna be a brainlord with a 2000 IQ, and people don't deserve to be ground to dust by our economic system because of it. don't even mention unions to me if you're a centrist. dems have completely abandoned them and left them to rot. maybe blue collar workers wouldn't be in such a mess if we hadn't signed legislation designed specifically to kill the unions
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Nov 13, 2016 15:58
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Condiv posted:please actually provide decisive proof factory jobs are gone and never coming back. cause to me it sounds like you're parroting the same neo-liberal propaganda that just lost an election. Yea trump is going to totally remove automation from factory work along with forcing all of the companies that have been shipped jobs overseas the last 60 years to magically make them return. Maybe all the automatons that are not in the scrap heap in favor of human hands can build the loving factories that these people will be working in. Holy gently caress. They aint coming back. Technology more than anything has destroyed those jobs.
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Nov 13, 2016 15:58
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Condiv posted:hmm, and these factories are run with massive tax subsidies too. i wonder if that has an effect on them being able to afford robots instead of workers Even if we took that away they'd have bought robots with their own corporate money. What makes you think they can't afford robots when they've been stealing money from workers all this time? What is my solution? Well frankly I was going to say that we should focus on re-unionization and trying to push people into sustainable jobs that can't be outsourced, like service work, construction, etc. My dad is from Mexico bro, get off your high horse. This does not inspire confidence in the future of the country, with regards to pulling working class white people back to the Democratic Party without obliterating the Obama coalition.
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Nov 13, 2016 15:58
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Is the old UsPol thread still up? It's a pretty good time capsule, I imagine. It was nothing but upper middle class tech workers on an endless inquisition to figure out who was the most "woke" to issues that don't matter to anyone that didn't live in their condo complex. That's what the Democratic party became and it absolutely needs to be torn down.
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Nov 13, 2016 15:59
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Quorum posted:I'm not sure, that sounds like baseless speculation that you should have to prove instead of assuming its true. Government isn't waving a magic wand of neoliberalism to make automation happening, it's happening because it's cheaper and more efficient and the workers who are left like it. http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/economy/article24781525.html 1. 3 billion in subsidies for major manufacturers
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Nov 13, 2016 15:59
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corn in the bible posted:ironically obamacare very specifically doesn't give health care to people who aren't working on account of you still have to pay for it wasnt the medicaid expansion as originally designed just a straight income test, so if you made less than whatever (133% of the poverty line?) you just straight qualified? i know the supreme court hosed part of that up, but as written...
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Nov 13, 2016 15:59
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Business Gorillas posted:The only thing people are going to do is read point 13 and write you off for being a bigot. Man, this generalization sure seems like an accurate thing and not part of a weird personal vendetta.
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Nov 13, 2016 15:59
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UberJew posted:Factory jobs are desirable not because of anything in and of themselves but just because jobs are desirable; as a general rule people enjoy having productive work to do and feel better about themselves for doing it, and there's an obvious social benefit if everyone is able to provide for themselves with the fruits of that labor From what I have seen, though that is probably not enough, it doesn't appear as if any one factory maintains that ability to maintain stuff for themselves. The second paragraph I am more than fine with. I more meant what is probably going to happen now.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:00
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Business Gorillas posted:Is the old UsPol thread still up? It's a pretty good time capsule, I imagine. It was nothing but upper middle class tech workers on an endless inquisition to figure out who was the most "woke" to issues that don't matter to anyone that didn't live in their condo complex. You are the poster child for white male brogressive who doesn't give a poo poo about minorities, dude.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:00
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UberJew posted:Factory jobs are desirable not because of anything in and of themselves but just because jobs are desirable; as a general rule people enjoy having productive work to do and feel better about themselves for doing it, and there's an obvious social benefit if everyone is able to provide for themselves with the fruits of that labor Factory work is better to a lot of people than comparable service sector work, because of that "productive" aspect. You can point to a car or sweater or chair and say "I made that. There is a thing that did not exist and because of my labor it does now and it is a useful thing." Service sector or worse yet, data labor is not satisfying in the same way.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:01
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skylined! posted:Yea trump is going to totally remove automation from factory work along with forcing all of the companies that have been shipped jobs overseas the last 60 years to magically make them return. Maybe all the automatons that are not in the scrap heap in favor of human hands can build the loving factories that these people will be working in. Take a minute and realize that you're just trying to shout at a man for wanting to word hard to provide for his community and you're giving him absolutely zero solutions to his problem. I mean no poo poo he's going to vote for the obvious con man because it's different than the other side, who's effectively screaming "YOUR JOB WILL DISAPPEAR AND YOURE FUNDAMENTALLY A BAD PERSON"
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Nov 13, 2016 16:01
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Condiv posted:they aren't specifically, but there's a dearth of well-paying blue collar work, and it's something our society has to deal with. not everyone's gonna be a brainlord with a 2000 IQ, and people don't deserve to be ground to dust by our economic system because of it. Agreed, though I am actually a democratic Socialist and in a Union in my country.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:01
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Business Gorillas posted:The only thing people are going to do is read point 13 and write you off for being a bigot. and yet ironically #13 is why just calling people RACIST BIGOTS is so wrongheaded. someone who actively opposes gay marriage is obviously homophobic, sure, but a lot of people will just say that they're hurting real bad right now and don't want people getting special treatment over them -- they don't care whether gays get married either way. now you can easily argue that this comes from a position of privilege, and inaction is a bigoted decision too, but that's a different thing you would have to actually explain to them.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:02
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Condiv posted:http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/economy/article24781525.html Yes, I'm aware that government subsidizes manufacturing. What I am not aware of is any proof that automation is more expensive than labor and the only reason companies can afford it is their huge fat cat tax breaks. Even if that were the case, why not just use labor and pocket the extra? The fact of the matter is, automation is a matter of technology as much as anything else, and is not going back in the bottle. It is incumbent upon us to use governmental power to ease that transition.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:02
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Quorum posted:Man, this generalization sure seems like an accurate thing and not part of a weird personal vendetta. My bad I have to go do some minority outreach real quick *does the dab with Beyonce and retweets something about intersectionality to 13 Twitter followers*
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Nov 13, 2016 16:04
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Nov 13, 2016 16:05
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Josef bugman posted:From what I have seen, though that is probably not enough, it doesn't appear as if any one factory maintains that ability to maintain stuff for themselves. I mean the reason for workers cooperatives like that as a transitional mechanism is that they can continue to operate within a market economy and buy or sell things as needed, just with a shift from being managed by an autocratic board of directors appointed by a handful of wealthy families or an oroboros of the largest conglomerates in the world solely for maximizing profit it runs in order to pay expenses and provide jobs
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Nov 13, 2016 16:05
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a transitional mechanism to fully automated gay space communism obv
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Nov 13, 2016 16:06
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skylined! posted:Yea trump is going to totally remove automation from factory work along with forcing all of the companies that have been shipped jobs overseas the last 60 years to magically make them return. Maybe all the automatons that are not in the scrap heap in favor of human hands can build the loving factories that these people will be working in. i don't think trump is going to, but he said he was which was a lot smarter than idiot clinton and her supporters messages of "your jobs are gone and your communities are dead! get over it!" Lightning Knight posted:Even if we took that away they'd have bought robots with their own corporate money. What makes you think they can't afford robots when they've been stealing money from workers all this time? and maintained the robots with their own money. and upgraded the robots with their own money. and fed the robots with their own money. etc. etc. automation is expensive and not rarely flexible, which is why people have been used for a long time (companies don't pay a ton of the expenses required to raise a worker!). cutting tax subsidies pushes automation further from the affordable column back to workers. happy to help quote:What is my solution? Well frankly I was going to say that we should focus on re-unionization and trying to push people into sustainable jobs that can't be outsourced, like service work, construction, etc. hmm, the dems abandoned unions and are scared to even speak the word "unionization". the only people who dare speak the word anymore are leftists. also how do you expect us to be an entire country of service workers? finally, do you not think that outsourcing of industry puts us at strategic risk? quote:My dad is from Mexico bro, get off your high horse. well, let me tell you as someone who gets to experience the joys of the west's immigration systems, they suck. i'm a white guy and they suck major rear end, and they suck even more for non-whites. and dems haven't given a poo poo about making it less sucky in a long time, considering we're deporting people more than bush did.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:07
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Swan Oat posted:wasnt the medicaid expansion as originally designed just a straight income test, so if you made less than whatever (133% of the poverty line?) you just straight qualified? i know the supreme court hosed part of that up, but as written... YEP and in fact you had to (have to?) overstate your income on the exchanges to get subsidies because they started at the level medicare ended
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Nov 13, 2016 16:07
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Business Gorillas posted:Take a minute and realize that you're just trying to shout at a man for wanting to word hard to provide for his community and you're giving him absolutely zero solutions to his problem. Reducing the issue with middle-class blue collar jobs to 'factory jobs are gone and need to return' is worth shouting at and down in a debate forum. Asking for evidence that they won't or can't return is low effort as gently caress; we should have all been asking where the evidence was when trump made The Big Promise that they somehow *would*. I'm not standing outside the welfare office in a rust belt town talking down to the poors because they can't figure out how to code ruby on rails dude. I work and manage in the service economy and am very sensitive to the plight of minimum wage, or only part-time work available, or only seasonal work available; the argument should be more focused on raising wages, not the jobs that pay them.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:07
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Condiv posted:i don't think trump is going to, but he said he was which was a lot smarter than idiot clinton and her supporters messages of "your jobs are gone and your communities are dead! get over it!" I don't recall that being a campaign message however yes, smug liberal elitism that advocated for leaving behind half the country because they were rural and dumb and racist was bad and needs to be changed.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:09
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Cup Runneth Over posted:Please do not embrace literal thoughtcrime and brainwashing people for having opposing political beliefs. I see it as when an ideology seeks to destroy democracy extremism in it defense is a virtue.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:11
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skylined! posted:I don't recall that being a campaign message however yes, smug liberal elitism that advocated for leaving behind half the country because they were rural and dumb and racist was bad and needs to be changed. are you saying the expensive concert with beyonce did not get poor people to support hillary clinton
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Nov 13, 2016 16:12
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are you saying lena dunham was not a winning icon with unemployed coal miners
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Nov 13, 2016 16:12
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corn in the bible posted:are you saying the expensive concert with beyonce did not get poor people to support hillary clinton Are you saying poor people can't support and be influenced by pop culture because they're so focused on seizing the means? Plenty of loving people love Beyonce and Cher and Madonna and all the other icons, including those living below the poverty line. I still think it's annoying as poo poo but this is a really dumb loving argument.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:14
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Stultus Maximus posted:Factory work is better to a lot of people than comparable service sector work, because of that "productive" aspect. You can point to a car or sweater or chair and say "I made that. There is a thing that did not exist and because of my labor it does now and it is a useful thing." Service sector or worse yet, data labor is not satisfying in the same way. It might be because I am legit hosed in the brain, but I despair of this sometimes. I can't seem to understand it.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:15
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Well everyone welcome to our four year test run of every idiot's theory that accelerationism is the only path to a real liberal candidate. My prediction - party coup by Bernie and bros fails, we get centrist Hillary-lite in 2020, who is repeatedly waterboarded live during the debates by RoboComey as a referendum on her stamina.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:15
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Condiv posted:and maintained the robots with their own money. and upgraded the robots with their own money. and fed the robots with their own money. etc. etc. Yes. They would absolutely do that just like they paid pinkertons to attempt to crush striking workers because they have a political, ideological goal of crushing workers rights by driving up productivity and requiring less workers that have the potential to unionize. If somehow you had the political capital to remove those subsidies that corporate lobbyists awarded the industry then they absolutely would find that elsewhere because they can only think in long term terms when it comes to eroding workers rights. This is a fundamental position of Marxism, that capitalism will in lieu of unexplored markets to exploit, will turn to more efficiently exploit the hinterlands through aggressive acquisition and deployment of new tools and techniques (technology). Even if you had the perfect political will (in which case, you also have the political will to do something far better than removing these subsidies, like maybe MinCome?), at best you merely slow down the process by a couple of years. Additionally "automation is expensive and inflexible" is a criticism labeled at early factory looms you realize, and they couldn't possibly replace the hands of a skilled artisan!
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Nov 13, 2016 16:15
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How did we possibly lose the Rust Belt??? I mean we got the endorsements of everyone from HuffPo's "Top Eleven Twitter Follows of 2016... You Won't Believe Number Seven!".
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Nov 13, 2016 16:16
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Business Gorillas posted:How did we possibly lose the Rust Belt??? I mean we got the endorsements of everyone from HuffPo's "Top Eleven Twitter Follows of 2016... You Won't Believe Number Seven!". Your not wrong, your just an rear end in a top hat.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:19
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Condiv posted:and maintained the robots with their own money. and upgraded the robots with their own money. and fed the robots with their own money. etc. etc. You're a massive prick about everything and your holier than thou "I'm the real leftist and you're all dirty centrist Clinton supporters" can gently caress right off. I think you massively underestimate the willingness and ability of businesses to cut out workers anywhere they can. Robotics gets more efficient every day. If your plan is to just take the factories away and give them to labor unions, then by all means, let's do that, but you and I know both know we won't be able to do that any time soon. Unions didn't collapse because Democrats abandoned them, unions collapsed because white working class union members started voting Republican under Reagan because of the Southern Strategy and then lo and behold, he started dismantling their poo poo. Afterwards the Democrats abandoned them. All of that is academic and secondary to the fact that not having supported unions in the past isn't required to get them back into power now. We won't be an entire country of service workers, but we're specifically talking about jobs that people with little to no education or qualifications can do. High school drop outs aren't exactly making it to the front of the line at IT companies. I'm not sure what you mean by "strategic risk." We clearly have no problems wasting trillions on military hardware. There's still plenty of factory work in America, it's just being done by robots or in places like the deep south where there are no unions and people get paid poo poo tier wages. Yes, it sucks. You seem to be under this impression that I am ignorant of how much it sucks and am disinterested in changing that. I don't know what I've said to give you that impression.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:19
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Really I think Chuck Tingle said it best when quote:Pibbles Pooch is a young, hotshot journalist with Bowling Bones Magazine, who’s just started his week on the presidential campaign trail with the notorious billionaire, Domald Tromp.
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Nov 13, 2016 16:20
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