FlamingLiberal posted:

AFL-CIO survey seems to back up the idea that Hillary tanked the union vote, which was probably the difference

https://twitter.com/WSJThinkTank/status/797873786376900608

Lightning Knight posted:

Yeah. 2020 DNC needs to open the salvo with "DONALD TRUMP OUTSOURCES JOBS, USES CHINESE STEEL, AND DOESN'T PAY PEOPLE WHO WORK FOR HIM" in every state of the Midwest and watch unions come in at like 90% support.

God, they made such good ads too and it was all a waste.

Lightning Knight posted:

Yeah. 2020 DNC needs to open the salvo with "DONALD TRUMP OUTSOURCES JOBS, USES CHINESE STEEL, AND DOESN'T PAY PEOPLE WHO WORK FOR HIM" in every state of the Midwest and watch unions come in at like 90% support.

God, they made such good ads too and it was all a waste.

zegermans posted:

I feel like they ran on this exact message and if those idiots want to vote away their collective bargaining rights because MEXICANS, gently caress em.

zegermans posted:

I feel like they ran on this exact message and if those idiots want to vote away their collective bargaining rights because MEXICANS, gently caress em.

zegermans posted:

I feel like they ran on this exact message and if those idiots want to vote away their collective bargaining rights because MEXICANS, gently caress em.

fknlo posted:

She won on "the most important issue" in all of the swing states she lost by minuscule amounts. It's almost like if that was actually the most important issue and she won it by 5% among those that turned out she would have won. That almost makes it seem like the "spooky brown people I've never really interacted with" was more of an issue.

Lightning Knight posted:

They ran like ten times as many ads in LA as they did in WI. That's hilariously dumb. Sick nasty ads don't mean poo poo if nobody ever sees them, and telling people in LA that Republicans suck is the epitome of preaching to the choir.

Lightning Knight posted:

Right, but there are attractions to rural living. It's loving pretty out there man. Have y'all actually seen America? We let the robber barons mine and log all the beautiful places when those people could've spent less time breaking their backs running a gift shop. I realize that's not ~fulfilling~ but it also doesn't disappear on you when the mine closes down.

Also I feel that rural areas could sustain micro economies more effectively if not for the monopolization of our country's economy. Ma and Pa can't compete with Wal-Mart or McDonald's.


Ah yes, the people who bought more ads in LA than WI. Totally crafty enough to rig primaries and out-maneuver left progressives.

I feel like that says more about left progressives than anything.

FlamingLiberal posted:

I really want some political scientists to study why voters completely choose to ignore statements from people like Matt Bevin and Trump where they are pretty plainly clear they want to do things that voters think are bad, but those same voters just assume they are 'bluffing' or whatever.

Tatsuta Age posted:

I mean, how am I supposed to feel bad for this person.

fosborb posted:

Ironically, exactly the misconception that lost Hilary the 2008 primary. Surely the popular vote matters!

Peven Stan posted:

Rural areas a shitholes from massive divestment due to capitalism. I love hiking and camping in rural Missouri but good lord there are large parts of the state where electrification is shaky and people are still living in flea-ridden hovels.

There's more work than can be done in our lifetimes with bringing rural America up to first world living standards.

Lightning Knight posted:

They ran on the message but their actual transmission of that message was poo poo.

They ran like ten times as many ads in LA as they did in WI. That's hilariously dumb. Sick nasty ads don't mean poo poo if nobody ever sees them, and telling people in LA that Republicans suck is the epitome of preaching to the choir.

FlamingLiberal posted:

I really want some political scientists to study why voters completely choose to ignore statements from people like Matt Bevin and Trump where they are pretty plainly clear they want to do things that voters think are bad, but those same voters just assume they are 'bluffing' or whatever.

The Puppy Bowl posted:

I think the fact that Trump directly contradicts himself so frequently makes it easier for people to maintain the cognitive dissonance required to believe Trump doesn't mean the promises they don't like and will defend to the death the promises they love.

Wraith of J.O.I. posted:

Is this not the thread for Trump tweets anymore? I don't think I've seen these posted. What could the impacts of his tweets be on the world? A bad tweet could move markets, or sell NYT subscriptions...

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/797805407179866112

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/797812048805695488

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/797832229800050688

Wraith of J.O.I. posted:

Is this not the thread for Trump tweets anymore? I don't think I've seen these posted. What could the impacts of his tweets be on the world? A bad tweet could move markets, or sell NYT subscriptions...

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/797805407179866112

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/797812048805695488

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/797832229800050688

Wraith of J.O.I. posted:

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/797832229800050688

Tatsuta Age posted:

I mean, how am I supposed to feel bad for this person.

fosborb posted:

From what I'm hearing, attendance at services of UCC, Quaker, UU, and other liberal congregations has been record breaking today. Pastors are saying they haven't seen filled sanctuaries like this on non holidays since 9/11.

I know that shouldn't be surprising, but it's clearly not hyperbolic to say the Left is still truly grieving.

Combed Thunderclap posted:

I have two pet theories (that have some evidence built in):

1) the hardening of political identity, beliefs, and affiliation to the point of religiosity

2) denial

...they're really just two sides of the same coin, though, so I also throw in:

3) I'd sooner gently caress over everyone including myself than let people have nice things that I think they don't deserve

This is the problem; I have no idea how to defuse the equivalent of political suicide bombers.

BadOptics posted:

This. I follow politics pretty closely and the first time I heard of "Chinese Steel" was in the 2nd(?) debate. All of her ads on the 'net/social media were ~*sick burns*~ on how Trump is a poo poo head. Also the network presence was poo poo; Conway was on all the time getting the GOP message out while the Clinton camp were too busy huffing their own farts while holding a seance with their personal W.O.P.R. computer.

HorseRenoir posted:

not sure if this has been posted already but Harry Reid is endorsing Keith Ellison for DNC chair, too

https://twitter.com/zachdcarter/status/797824199716966400

GreyjoyBastard posted:

poo poo, that could be that.

I am pleased.

Wraith of J.O.I. posted:

Is this not the thread for Trump tweets anymore? I don't think I've seen these posted. What could the impacts of his tweets be on the world? A bad tweet could move markets, or sell NYT subscriptions...

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/797805407179866112

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/797812048805695488

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/797832229800050688

Lightning Knight posted:

Ok I hit the anger/acceptance stage at work. Here is my big huge pointless effort post no one will read.

My Take on the Democratic Post-Mortem, 2016:

* For Everyone

1. We are not doomed. Donald Trump ran on a fascist platform but he's not a true believer, he's a con man. He won't fight for his abhorrent causes, he's going to dismantle the government slowly but surely to enrich himself. The Republican Party is split three ways between the business class, the ultraconservatives/Tea Party and the new Trumpists and they're not going to vote in lockstep on everything. It's a drat near thing and almost everything has to go right, and we need to be lucky, but it's not over. We just have to fight the Battle of Agincourt now, rather than the Siege of Berlin.

2. We need everyone. This will be a recurring theme. We can win the Presidency with a relative few more votes, but we need way, way more voters to win the House, Senate, and state governments. We can't afford to alienate large swaths of people, even if we feel justified in doing so. There's limits to this - there's people we can't win - but that's the long and short of it.

3. We are out of time. We can't wait for demographics to save us and we can't wait for lovely Boomers to die out. If Hillary had won she could've stemmed the bleeding on global warming and given us a liberal supreme court. Now we don't have that luxury. We are on a ticking clock.

* For progressives

1. You (probably) aren't as radical as you think you are. If you think the New Deal, or for that matter Bernie Sanders, is "socialist," you are not a socialist. If you are actually a socialist and know what socialism is, you probably still don't have the spine to go out and fight in person. That's ok, most don't. But we need to be realistic about what we are. Bernie Sanders wasn't that far politically from Hillary Clinton, as much as we want to project our perfect savior fantasies on to him, and the sooner we realize this the better. I'm not saying we shouldn't fight for socialism - we should - but unless you're straight up an actual bomb-throwing anarchist, you aren't that radical. If you are, why aren't you at a protest right now?

2. Bernie Sanders is smarter than you. That's why when he knew he couldn't win the primary he endorsed Hillary and campaigned for her. That's why now he's not abandoning the Democrats and is fighting for their leadership. Progressives labor under the delusion that we are the most charismatic people ever and if everyone could just hear our ideas they'd believe us and join us. That the Democrats will just magically come around and become a progressive party on their own. That's bullshit. If we want a progressive party, we have to make one. Building a third party is much, much harder than just taking over the Democrats. That means voting - especially in primaries - fighting for leadership positions, and still showing up even if we didn't get what we want. Conservatives don't stay home if their guy doesn't win the primary. We shouldn't and can't afford to either.

3. Leave your pride at the door. I want Chuck Shumer's head on a pike too. Too bad. Progressives need to be willing to work with the party and to compromise and play nice with others. That means realizing we won't always get what we want. Bernie Sanders didn't take his ball and go home when he lost. Why should we? This does not mean do not question the party. Far from it. It means that instead of fighting a pointless civil war with the conservative wing or staying home like children, we work to change the party to fit our vision. That means we sometimes won't get what we want. Grow the gently caress up.

4. Republicans change the system so they have an easier time holding on to power. We should too. I do not mean voter suppression. But why aren't we pushing for a constitutional amendment to harmonize elections and get rid of off-year votes? Why aren't we fighting against gerrymandering, voter suppression, and the Electoral College? Why aren't we pushing for automatic registration at 18, mail-in ballots in every state, extended early vote, and if necessary national ID? We should be.

5. White straight male progressives are not the future of our movement. Yes, that means Bernie should not run again. White straight male progressives need to learn to sit down and shut the gently caress up some of the time, and to listen to minority voices. POC, LGBT, and female candidates are our future and we need to pave the way for them, not throw tantrums when we don't get to run the show. And for that guy reaching for his keyboard to say " why do you hate white straight men???" shut the gently caress up. Don't even. White straight men already get to be the center of the universe every other place. If you even want to pretend to be progressive don't you start that poo poo here.

6. Nativism, isolationism, and anti-trade positions are a cancer upon the Western World. The progressive left needs to drop any notion of adopting these planks right the gently caress now. Demonizing Chinese and Mexican people to appeal to white working class voters won't help us because we can't out-Republican the Republicans. The rest of the world is also deserving of not being poor too, and the West is largely responsible for their poverty, so we should be responsible for helping them too. American foreign policy is poo poo but withdrawing and letting world trade collapse will just lead to another war. And if you are too much of a sociopath to care about foreign poor people or world peace, then at least remember what happened the last time we mixed nativism with leftism.

7. The Russian Government is not your friend. Neither is the US Government for that matter. You might think it's great that the Russians did Watergate 2.0. on the DNC, or that Comey kneecapped our campaign in the last 14 days, but realize that they won't stop when the progressives take over. It won't be funny anymore when Kamala Harris 2020 gets sunk by Russian hacks. Only the most delusional tankies think the Russians are a friendly power as they fund and nurture dangerous far-right movements throughout the Western World. Remember Paul Manafort? Donald Trump was their bid to kill America. Don't think they'll be helpful to a progressive DNC. Ditto for institutions like the FBI.

8. White working class people ARE racist, sexist, and homophobic. But we need them. We really, really do. At the same time keep in mind that we are asking minorities to sit at the table with people who are ambivalent to their right to life at best and who happily voted for a man who ran on a platform of hatred and murder towards them. We have to walk a razor thin line to keep a coalition like this together and trying to whitesplain to black people that no really they aren't racist is stupid and pointless. This is more about our dialogue than what we campaign on.

9. Identity politics DO matter. A program of economic reform and anti-poverty measures are good and will help everyone if we do it right, but a higher minimum wage and free college doesn't stop police bullets, conversion therapy, or lower the rates of sexual assault, and if you aren't prepared to fight just as hard for forgiveness of your student debt as you are for Black Lives Matter, go home, we don't need you.

10. Stop buying into Republican framing. Bullshit like "establishment, coastal elites, (((globalism))), etc." are poo poo that the Republicans use, among a host of other phrasings, to delegitimize and undermine the left. Remember, that poo poo is all too often dogwhistles for Jewish people or the urban poor black community. We constantly, constantly harp on the failure of Democratic messaging and it's because we always, consistently buy into Republican framings of every issue. You hate Bill Clinton? Well guess what, his innovation was to attempt to out-Republican the Republicans. He failed. We can't make the same mistakes. This isn't about the correctness of these terms (for example, "establishment"), but more so about the framing of our issues.

11. People are three-dimensional. It's bad to boil down white working class people to "they're racist" even if they are because they have more going on than that and we can still reach them through other messages in spite of their racism. By the same token however, neoliberals and conservative Democrats are not mustache-twirling villains. Many of them really do believe that their ideology is good and right and can help people. If you insist on simplifying them to "evil assholes who don't agree with me" we won't get anywhere. This also goes for Republicans, we just can't reach them realistically in the time we have.

12. Stop trying to vilify Hillary Clinton. You don't have to like her. You're free to hate her in fact. But realize that trying to retroactively turn her into "American Margaret Thatcher" is both ahistorical and will alienate many, many people. We are not the mainstream in our hate for her on the left. Most of her unpopularity was with conservative straight white men. She still won the popular vote and there are millions of women and minorities who look at her as a hero, and it isn't a good look for white straight male progressives to poo poo on the legacy of one of the most influential women in American history. Even if you hate her, we can't win with that message going forward. Grumble in private about her if you must but make your peace with her legacy in public and move on.

* For conservative/centrist Democrats

1. Hillary Clinton is smarter than you. She saw that Bernie represented a sea-change in Democratic politics and adopted most of his platform after she won. She fought a largely congenial primary with him and worked hard not to alienate his voters. Conservative Democrats are not the way forward, and this election was proof. You will have to learn to live with the progressive wing.

2. Paying lipservice to identity politics isn't going to cut it anymore. The poor white population just voted in a monster because they hate you. They're fools, but you have to recognize that this is the new normal. Likewise telling minority voters you will help them and then abandoning them in office is no longer acceptable either. You get to choose between being less rich and helping leftist causes for real, or losing everything to insane fascists. No more threading the needle to maintain your power.

3. We need to engage young people. Yes, that means Hillary should not run again. Making stupid pop song ads and campaigning with famous people isn't good enough. Neither, apparently, is offering free college. But we need to engage young people and we need to do it now. We all saw that state map if only young people could vote. We need that now, not in 20 years.

4. Stop fighting a civil war with the progressive wing. Bernie Sanders didn't win the primary but he came drat close with no prep time and a conservative DNC that was hostile to him. The writing is on the wall. You don't have to roll over and die if you're a true believer in neoliberalism but you must compromise with progressives lest everything you've ever cared about is laid to ruin by the Republican Party.

5. Unions, unions, unions. Relying on big business and Wall Street for our funding has been a disaster. We need a financial base that won't sabotage our efforts from within. Unions conveniently also own and would go a long way towards helping us attract working class people of all colors again, provided we fight hard for them to both flourish and be inclusive.

6. Give up on gun control. I hate the Second Amendment and gun culture and all the horrific toxicity surrounding them. I hate that mass shootings have become so common as to be like a hazardous weather condition more than a tragedy. But gun owners care more about voting down gun control than liberals care about voting for it. We can mitigate and prevent mass shootings and gang violence with guns without direct gun control and it's a dumb hill to die on.

7. Give up on the war on drugs. Legalization of all controlled substances and prison reform would earn you huge points with young and black voters and they are good things. Clinging to the war on drugs for the sake of a foreign policy tool or the enrichment of corporate interests is foolish and short-sighted. Give it up.

8. It's time to abandon the middle class. We bought into the Republican framing of "a strong middle class," but the truth is that this is a huge dogwhistle for white suburbanites. I bet enough of us are white suburbanites to know that they vote straight R anyway regardless of how much we pander, because they care more about tax cuts than people's lives. We need working class people, not lovely FYGM suburbanites.

* For minorities

1. If you have to flee, flee. But when you move to Canada or wherever, try and keep your citizenship. We aren't entitled to your volunteer hours or money but an absentee vote to make America not suck is in your interests even if you move abroad because you might escape the persecution of minorities but you can't escape US foreign policy.

2. You're probably going to have to sit at the table with people who hate you. I'm sorry. If I could have a world where we didn't need lovely people with backwards beliefs to win elections I would. But this is not that world. Progressives need to fight for your rights and fight to educate ignorant people, but we need to build a coalition and that is a messy business.

3. We need your candidacy. I care about Black Lives Matter, immigration reform and amnesty, marriage equality and adoption rights, workplace discrimination laws and challenging rape culture. But we need to attract the white working class again. You are right to fear the white moderate, and that's why we need you to run instead. I'm sorry you have to do everything for white straight men. We suck. But the only way we can ensure minority rights get a seat at the table of economic populism is to run minority candidates.

There's probably more and I didn't put everything I had thought of but I think this is my comprehensive hot take (tm).

zegermans posted:

I feel like they ran on this exact message and if those idiots want to vote away their collective bargaining rights because MEXICANS, gently caress em.

QuarkJets posted:

I don't agree with everything in this but it's got enough smartly-written content that it should probably be in the OP

Fojar38 posted:

lol there will be riots when ACA is repealed

WhiskeyJuvenile posted:

SourKraut posted:

Is it wrong that some part of me does want to see the Country split up into separate parts so that you get a West Coast Country, northeast country, and everything else can be one racist shithole country?

SourKraut posted:

Is it wrong that some part of me does want to see the Country split up into separate parts so that you get a West Coast Country, northeast country, and everything else can be one racist shithole country?

HorseRenoir posted:

well you would be relegating all the minorities and gay people in those places to die, for one

Lightning Knight posted:

5. White straight male progressives are not the future of our movement. Yes, that means Bernie should not run again. White straight male progressives need to learn to sit down and shut the gently caress up some of the time, and to listen to minority voices. POC, LGBT, and female candidates are our future and we need to pave the way for them, not throw tantrums when we don't get to run the show. And for that guy reaching for his keyboard to say " why do you hate white straight men???" shut the gently caress up. Don't even. White straight men already get to be the center of the universe every other place. If you even want to pretend to be progressive don't you start that poo poo here.

...

9. Identity politics DO matter. A program of economic reform and anti-poverty measures are good and will help everyone if we do it right, but a higher minimum wage and free college doesn't stop police bullets, conversion therapy, or lower the rates of sexual assault, and if you aren't prepared to fight just as hard for forgiveness of your student debt as you are for Black Lives Matter, go home, we don't need you.

...

On Terra Firma posted:

He won by doing this, so what's the strategy to counter it. How do you change the narrative so that his whining is pointed out for what it is.