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I am a straight white dude that voted Democrat and I am kinda being turned off by the fact that there have been people screaming "gently caress white men" as a result of this election Why cant there be a party about not being dicks to each other all the time, and also maybe pizza, because seriously both sides at this point are just becoming rampaging hate machines
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Nov 14, 2016 12:13
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Smudgie Buggler posted:OK, but members of the Mid Western demographic (and white people generally) fairly demonstrably do not want the things I've bolded. So, if they're going to vote against them in sufficient numbers going forward to make this goal impossible, are you willing to say what the white hand seems just a little bit to chicken to and admit that, if necessary, white people (or perhaps specifically white identitarians) exerting political power as a bloc is something that needs forceful suppression? I disagree that whites have rejected progressive economic policies. Nevertheless, I fail to see your point. If white people can't be reached with progressive policies, are you suggesting to give up on a leftist platform? Once again, I have been very firmly in favor of empowering rural population specifically, not of suppressing it, but empowering it through economic and infrastructural reform, not by playing up their racial make up.
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Nov 14, 2016 12:15
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steinrokkan posted:I'm starting to be convinced that you are trolling. White people and white identity are not the same thing. OK. So what's so intolerable about white people voting for things they think are in their collective interests? Do you see what I'm getting at here? You want to say white people are all good and dandy so long as they don't think of themselves as white people. But that strips them of the ability to organise in whatever collective interests they think they might have in a way not denied other groups. So there is simply no reason for white people who do think of themselves as white (in no small measure because they keep being told stuff on TV and in college about White People and the horrible poo poo they're apparently prone to do) to go along with this.
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Nov 14, 2016 12:17
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Sperglord Firecock posted:I am a straight white dude that voted Democrat and I am kinda being turned off by the fact that there have been people screaming "gently caress white men" as a result of this election Because a lot of people hate and resent you and want your stuff for their own. It's really not that complicated.
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Nov 14, 2016 12:18
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Smudgie Buggler posted:There's that "wrong side of history" argument again. That's fine, but what do you do when grown men women keep electing people that keep loving them over and then ignoring the results because it was clearly sabotaged by liberals etc?
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Nov 14, 2016 12:18
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steinrokkan posted:I disagree that whites have rejected progressive economic policies. No, I'm suggesting that you won't be successful implementing it through electoral politics. You're going to have to impose it.
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Nov 14, 2016 12:19
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Smudgie Buggler posted:So, white identity is inherently racist, but white people having political power is not? No, it's not. White people have just got to find a way to participate in the political process without being racist, which is what white identity is. Not inherently, but because in this world, that's what white identity is and always has been. We can help white people, by curing them of it. As they shed harmful and counterproductive patterns of thinking, they will gain political power, not lose it. When they waste time on white identity they are easily suckered into ignoring the real causes of their economic subjugation. It's an old trick, because it works well. Many white people are satisfied when their leaders are racist. It's like watching a sport for them, it lets them enjoy themselves and stop thinking. They're marks. Shedding bigotry is the first step to white people gaining political power. But those who ask us to waste time holding their hand and leading them out of the mire of the white supremacy movement don't get to come along. They can't be trusted.
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Nov 14, 2016 12:19
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Smudgie Buggler posted:Because a lot of people hate and resent you and want your stuff for their own. Exactly my point, people should just try not being dicks to each other, and maybe things would be better, but something just seems to flick on in peoples brains that entire giant swathes of populations are assholes or undesirable because of race somehow
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Nov 14, 2016 12:20
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Anyway, it is in American whites' interest to reorient them towards new perspectives, because the idea of "white people (or perhaps specifically white identitarians) exerting political power as a bloc" is a piece of fiction thanks to which the wealthy have been taking the poor, powerless people, for a ride since days immemorial, and it needs to stop. Therefore don't base your campaign on the racial identity of your white (prospective) supporters, but offer them an alternative concept around which to coalesce.
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Nov 14, 2016 12:21
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Smudgie Buggler posted:Because a lot of people hate and resent you and want your stuff for their own. Really? That's the only reason? It can't be at all because some people are as frustrated and as badly off, if not worse, as rural white people? It can't be because white people as a demographic have a tendency of ignoring or minimizing their problems until it actually starts effecting white people? They have to be resentful and greedy? That's part of the problem with this whole discussion.
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Nov 14, 2016 12:22
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DreamingofRoses posted:That's fine, but what do you do when grown men women keep electing people that keep loving them over and then ignoring the results because it was clearly sabotaged by liberals etc? Me personally? Laugh and feel vindicated because I figured out democracy is a retarded race to the bottom a while back. What I'm trying to do here is get some of these mewling milquetoast pussies to admit that they're perfectly happy for white people to be dragged along into their brave new world by force if necessary.
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Nov 14, 2016 12:23
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Smudgie Buggler posted:OK. So what's so intolerable about white people voting for things they think are in their collective interests? Again, nothing, I agree with you that white people vote for what they see in their interest, but that doesn't mean I need to accept white identitarianism as a permanent political fixture. In fact, people voting in their interest is why white identity as a voting behavior should be possible to dismantle, a person voting in favor of his personal self-interest, and in the interest of an abstract notion of a racial community, are two very different things.
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Nov 14, 2016 12:25
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steinrokkan posted:Anyway, it is in American whites' interest to reorient them towards new perspectives, because the idea of "white people (or perhaps specifically white identitarians) exerting political power as a bloc" is a piece of fiction thanks to which the wealthy have been taking the poor, powerless people, for a ride since days immemorial, and it needs to stop. I understand that's your view, but a large and growing number of white Americans disagree vociferously and are quite prepared to fight you about it. quote:Therefore don't base your campaign on the racial identity of your white (prospective) supporters, but offer them an alternative concept around which to coalesce. Yeah, cool, but if they don't buy it? What are you prepared to do?
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Nov 14, 2016 12:25
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steinrokkan posted:Again, nothing, I agree with you that white people vote for what they see in their interest, but that doesn't mean I need to accept white identitarianism as a permanent political fixture. In fact, people voting in their interest is why white identity as a voting behavior should be possible to dismantle, a person voting in favor of his personal self-interest, and in the interest of an abstract notion of a racial community, are two very different things. Yeah, I get it dude. You want to sell rural white people a product you believe meets their needs better than white nationalism. My question is: what's your plan if the sales pitch is a flop (which it just was)?
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Nov 14, 2016 12:26
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Smudgie Buggler posted:Yeah, cool, but if they don't buy it? What are you prepared to do? It's an all in scenario. If it is proven that majority of white people can't be bargained with, there is no way to work with them from a position compatible with the Democratic Party. That is self-evident.
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Nov 14, 2016 12:27
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Smudgie Buggler posted:
You know what? They will be. Demographics are shifting and 100 years from now there's a good chance that pure American white people will be a minority with a limited voice, and that's what we're afraid of . I'm prepared to wait it out.
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Nov 14, 2016 12:29
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Smudgie Buggler posted:My question is: what's your plan if the sales pitch is a flop (which it just was)? Hillary was literally the worst salesman in the history of politics. Fortunately there are now people getting energized in the party to write a new, better, and more identifiable pitch.
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Nov 14, 2016 12:30
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steinrokkan posted:It's an all in scenario. If it is proven that majority of white people can't be bargained with, there is no way to work with them from a position compatible with the Democratic Party. That is self-evident. Not wanting to take the bargain you're offering isn't the same thing as not being able to be bargained with, but whatever. That's not the point. You haven't answered the question. All you've said here is "Well, if my plan doesn't work then, self-evidently, the plan doesn't work." Seminal analysis. I'm asking you about where you go from there. Do you say "OK white people are retarded, time to dominate them by force for their own good"? If so, why should the white people under discussion not despise and resist you for the exact same reasons many black people (rightly) despise and resist white people who think this exact thing about blacks?
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Nov 14, 2016 12:32
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Smudgie Buggler posted:My question is: what's your plan if the sales pitch is a flop (which it just was)? "Joke's on you, I'm really stupid" 
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Nov 14, 2016 12:34
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Smudgie Buggler posted:Yeah, I get it dude. You want to sell rural white people a product you believe meets their needs better than white nationalism. You're really angling hard to get someone to out themselves as no better than the adversary they're railing against, aren't you? I think the plan is "keep trying without resorting to force." Many of them will never be reachable, but some will. And with the margins this election had, some is all you need the next time around. Ya know, assuming there is a next time around.
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Nov 14, 2016 12:35
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Smudgie Buggler posted:Again: what's in it for them? It just so happens that the same people who want this for them also, and this is especially true after this election, want to get them as high up on Maslow's hierarchy as we can. Because it's the moral thing to do, and because it's a crucial part of helping them not be racist anymore. But make no mistake, "not being racist" is an end in and of itself for them.
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Nov 14, 2016 12:35
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DreamingofRoses posted:You know what? They will be. Demographics are shifting and 100 years from now there's a good chance that pure American white people will be a minority with a limited voice, and that's what we're afraid of . I'm prepared to wait it out. Right. But the whole point here is that it doesn't look like white people are prepared to twiddle their thumbs and let this happen. Hence the "whitelash". I mean, maybe you think there's nothing they can feasibly do and the demographic decline of white America is far enough along that it can't actually be reversed in the current political system. And you may be right. But if that's the case, there is no reason at all for the white people we're talking about to not seek to change that system by force.
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Nov 14, 2016 12:36
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steinrokkan posted:a position compatible with the Democratic Party.
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Nov 14, 2016 12:36
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The american notion of white identity is literally an assimilation bargain to be accepted as vaguely equal partners in the big tent of anglo culture i.e. stop pretending you have a culture silly immigrants or we'll lynch you too. It has barely any unifying myths besides maybe an appeal to broad notions of being an immigrant nation which extend to pretty much everyone besides most african americans.
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Nov 14, 2016 12:39
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Kilroy posted:Not being racist is what's in it for them. That's literally it. It is better i.e. healthier not to be a racist bigot and carry that baggage around. You live longer. How ridiculous. If you actually believe there's no margin in racism yet also believe white identity is a racist construct because of American history, you must necessarily conclude that white people are a uniquely stupid race of people. Clearly not being racist is not seen universally as being "better". There are very clearly some pros to being both racist and in charge. quote:It just so happens that the same people who want this for them also, and this is especially true after this election, want to get them as high up on Maslow's hierarchy as we can. Because it's the moral thing to do, and because it's a crucial part of helping them not be racist anymore. But make no mistake, "not being racist" is an end in and of itself for them. But it isn't. It's one thing to claim to know what's in someone's interests better than they do. It's another to try to tell them what their goals are. But either one isn't going to get you very far unless you're capable and prepared to force them to do/go along with what you believe is best for themselves.
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Nov 14, 2016 12:40
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Agnosticnixie posted:The american notion of white identity is literally an assimilation bargain to be accepted as vaguely equal partners in the big tent of anglo culture i.e. stop pretending you have a culture silly immigrants or we'll lynch you too. It has barely any unifying myths besides maybe an appeal to broad notions of being an immigrant nation which extend to pretty much everyone besides most african americans. Is any of this a reason why it can't be an extremely powerful political force? No. Rejoin us in reality when you're ready.
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Nov 14, 2016 12:40
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Smudgie Buggler posted:These people do not believe that you know better what's good for them than they do, and they never, ever will. Complaining about this like Democrats are the hypocrites for doing this or whatever is just dumb. You're just dumb, friendo.
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Nov 14, 2016 12:42
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itt: why shouldn't white people use force to maintain white supremacy??? ~*economic anxiety*~
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Nov 14, 2016 12:42
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zxqv8 posted:You're really angling hard to get someone to out themselves as no better than the adversary they're railing against, aren't you? No, I'm just trying to get someone to acknowledge reality. You need white identity to not be a thing, or at least not a politically relevant thing. But it will continue to be a highly relevant thing unless you do resort to force.
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Nov 14, 2016 12:44
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Smudgie Buggler posted:Not wanting to take the bargain you're offering isn't the same thing as not being able to be bargained with, but whatever. That's not the point. You haven't answered the question. All you've said here is "Well, if my plan doesn't work then, self-evidently, the plan doesn't work." Seminal analysis. I'm asking you about where you go from there. Do you say "OK white people are retarded, time to dominate them by force for their own good"? If so, why should the white people under discussion not despise and resist you for the exact same reasons many black people (rightly) despise and resist white people who think this exact thing about blacks? There are two questions to be unpacked. First is, what would happen if whites rejected all reasonable bargains that didn't revolve around protecting their racial identity as a political unit. Quite frankly, I have no answer here, because it's a scenario incompatible with my ontology. Whatever would follow would be outside the scope of politics as I understand them, which in turn would be absolutely invalidated, as would the entire idea of leftism and progressivism, in my opinion. The other question is - what if the Democrats fail to even come up with a bargain due to continued missteps, and remain an ineffective political force. In that case I assume the floor would be given to the "demographic revolution" camp not due to some deliberations, but by the weight of natural forces. That would, however, not mean violence against whites. It would mean power sharing based on the same democratic principles that allowed whites to control politics for so long. At least I would hope so. And if whites can't tolerate the idea of being put into the position where black people, fo example, are today (from a pure vote share perspective, not economically or socially), then they should trouble themselves with the implications of that. Anyway, I would hope the transition would be slow enough to ease everybody into the new reality, and that there would be no vindictiveness among the former minorities that would push white people down and make them outraged. I.e. instead of white people falling to the level of minorities today, I imagine minorities rising to the status and privilege of white people, which shouldn't be objectionable to anybody who isn't racist. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 12:50 on Nov 14, 2016 |
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Nov 14, 2016 12:47
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Rent-A-Cop posted:The list of positions compatible with the Democratic Party has run the gamut from "gently caress black people" to "gently caress white people" in the last 50 years. I'm sure it will adapt to survive. OK, Democratic Party as we currently understand it and want it to be.
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Nov 14, 2016 12:48
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Lightning Knight posted:itt: what incentives exist to discourage white people from using force to maintain white supremacy??? Fixed.
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Nov 14, 2016 12:48
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Smudgie Buggler posted:How ridiculous. If you actually believe there's no margin in racism yet also believe white identity is a racist construct because of American history, you must necessarily conclude that white people are a uniquely stupid race of people. I don't think you can appreciate how much that warps your mind until you see it from the outside. If you have never in your life had to deal with, e.g. being a "representative of your race" on a daily loving basis, and how aggravating that is, then there are some things that your brain is simply not prepared to get. Smudgie Buggler posted:It's one thing to claim to know what's in someone's interests better than they do. It's another to try to tell them what their goals are. But either one isn't going to get you very far unless you're capable and prepared to force them to do/go along with what you believe is best for themselves.
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Nov 14, 2016 12:49
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No, we get it. Decency won't cut it.
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Nov 14, 2016 12:49
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Smudgie Buggler posted:Fixed. You are saying that the only ways are surrendering to the GOP or a civil war. Or maybe, just maybe, you are saying that actually it would be grand to subject politics to a white founding myth, but it wouldn't be expedient to say it out loud, so instead let's come up with fictional scenarios in which crossing the white identitarian crowd ends with everybody dead.
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Nov 14, 2016 12:53
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steinrokkan posted:There are two questions to be unpacked. First is, what would happen if whites rejected all reasonable bargains that didn't revolve around protecting their racial identity as a political unit. Quite frankly, I have no answer here, because it's a scenario incompatible with my ontology. Whatever would follow would be outside the scope of politics as I understand them, which in turn would be absolutely invalidated, as would the entire idea of leftism and progressivism, in my opinion. Are you actually saying "this would mean my ideology was wrong so it's not true" or are you just saying that this would be a massive epistemic shock and cause you to reevaluate your entire worldview and for that reason you are not prepared to look past that horizon right now? quote:The other question is - what if the Democrats fail to even come up with a bargain due to continued missteps, and remain an ineffective political force. In that case I assume the floor would be given to the "demographic revolution" camp not due to some deliberations, but by the weight of natural forces. That would, however, not mean violence against whites. It would mean power sharing based on the same democratic principles that allowed whites to control politics for so long. At least I would hope so. Hah! You can't be serious. quote:And if whites can't tolerate the idea of being put into the position where black people, fo example, are today, then they should trouble themselves with the implications of that. They are extremely troubled by the implications of being put into that position. What the gently caress do you think is going on, dude? quote:Anyway, I would hope the transition would be slow enough to ease everybody into the new reality, and that there would be no vindictiveness among the former minorities that would push white people down and make them outraged. Endearing but ridiculous optimism. quote:I.e. instead of white people falling to the level of minorities today, I imagine minorities rising to the status and privilege of white people, which shouldn't be objectionable to anybody who isn't racist. The only way nobody can be marginalised is if there are no margins to occupy. Which, as I'm sure you'd realise if you thought about it for a second, is geometrically impossible.
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Nov 14, 2016 12:54
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Smudgie Buggler posted:Fixed. Anyway your argument is moot. The Democratic party does not need to cater to or treat with white supremacists to win elections. The GOP can have their white supremacy and gay bashing, and the Democrats will have their progressivism and fifty-state strategy, and pretty much every election going forward is going to be a repeat of 2006 and 2008. I'm done arguing with you.
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Nov 14, 2016 12:55
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I thought you weren't American, Smudgie Buggler? This is intimate expertise of the white electorate you're showing us here. How did you come by it?
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Nov 14, 2016 12:56
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steinrokkan posted:You are saying that the only ways are surrendering to the GOP or a civil war. No, I'm saying the only ways are bend over for a white America that embraces identitarianism and hope they treat you nicer than they have in the past or a civil war.
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Nov 14, 2016 12:56
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quote:They are extremely troubled by the implications of being put into that position. What the gently caress do you think is going on, dude? This is about the only smart thing you've said. Half the thread reasoned themselves into a position where Trump isn't a massive signal that white backlash against progressivism is a massive problem and that white people might choose white supremacy over socialism for all.
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Nov 14, 2016 12:57
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